596 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

LPPrince wrote...
Cause I'm all for bisexuality in games, along with hetero and homosexuality, but playersexuality is tired and old.

What games besides DA2 have actually done it? 

[New Display Name]

I don't think putting a joke (meaning intending to draw laughs) trans character in the game is very progressive.

[LPPrince]

Plaintiff wrote...

David Gaider and others have said, multiple times, that Merrill and Fenris are not bisexual. They are gay or straight depending on what you, the player, want them to be. 

There a link to that? I only ask because I know Gaider gets miffed when people say that he or someone else said something without a direct source.

Anyway, I take your word for it. That would be playersexuality, and thats something I dislike.

I'd rather a squadmate's sexuality be set in stone no matter what gender the player character is.

[InfinitePaths]

LPPrince wrote...


Doesn't have to be forced, just a line between squaddies once or twice that gets the point across prior to any romantic interest being shown to the PC.

Cause I'm all for bisexuality in games, along with hetero and homosexuality, but playersexuality is tired and old.

We have 2 great examples of this in ME3:

If you cheat Kaidan in ME2 as FemShep with Jacob 
in ME3 Kaidan will say:I don't judge you,we were on a break,at least you have good taste in men

When Cortez(gay) and Vega(straight) came to watch a bioticball match in the Citdatel DLC they comment:
Cortez:I think your love of the Asari has more to do with how they look than with how they play(Only female team)
Vega:Don't tell me you don't have the hots for the human team(only male)
Cortez:Ok,Ok guillty as charged

This is a way to in the same dialouge both express their sexualities(hetero and ******) and send a message of tolerance and anti homophobia 

Link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq1-GXAhcNk

[syllogi]

Personally, I'd like to see an "openly" bisexual character (i.e; canonically shows interest in both men and women whether or not romanced) who doesn't fit a stereotypical mold of promiscuity and lack of interest in monogamy or long term relationships (see: people pointing to Zevran and Isabela and saying "it makes sense that they're bisexual" because of their sexual mores.) But, that doesn't mean that every romanceable character needs to declare their sexuality, or express interest in anyone other than the PC. It's really not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, and if the character's personal story doesn't lend itself to that sort of disclosure.

A character like Fenris, who has no memories of past relationships, doesn't need to declare their sexuality. Maybe they're discovering whom they like as they go along. And maybe, like Fenris, it's not in their nature to blab to everyone around them about those self discoveries. And maybe Merrill really doesn't have a preference, in the game, other than falling in love with whomever Hawke turns out to be. That doesn't make her personality any less vibrant or distinct.

[sharkboy421]

Plaintiff wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Cause I'm all for bisexuality in games, along with hetero and homosexuality, but playersexuality is tired and old.

What games besides DA2 have actually done it? 

I'd kinda like to know that as well.  The only other one I can think of is Dragon's Dogma and that. . . doesn't really count in my opinion.  Its a great game, but the romance portion is not so good.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Please forgive me as my question will probably offend but how would a true portrayal of a gay or bi LI differ from a straight LI?

Think Alistair, Morrigan, Sebastian, Leliana, Zevran, and Isabella. They all have pretty defined, fleshed out sexual orientations (straight or bi) through party banter and conversations. There just isn't an exclusively gay LI fully fleshed out like that, same sex LIs are either bisexual or playersexual.

I guess I should have taken out bi and just put gay as we do have fleshed out portrayals of bi LIs as I mentioned above but when I tacked "bi" on there I was thinking of playersexual LIs, who many people consider bi because of metagaming knowledge.

[InfinitePaths]

syllogi wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see an "openly" bisexual character (i.e; canonically shows interest in both men and women whether or not romanced) who doesn't fit a stereotypical mold of promiscuity and lack of interest in monogamy or long term relationships (see: people pointing to Zevran and Isabela and saying "it makes sense that they're bisexual" because of their sexual mores.) But, that doesn't mean that every romanceable character needs to declare their sexuality, or express interest in anyone other than the PC. It's really not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, and if the character's personal story doesn't lend itself to that sort of disclosure.

A character like Fenris, who has no memories of past relationships, doesn't need to declare their sexuality. Maybe they're discovering whom they like as they go along. And maybe, like Fenris, it's not in their nature to blab to everyone around them about those self discoveries. And maybe Merrill really doesn't have a preference, in the game, other than falling in love with whomever Hawke turns out to be. That doesn't make her personality any less vibrant or distinct.

I'm ok with them not representing their sexuallity if it fits their charather.But it is unfair that a charather who romances both female and male protag shows sexual interest in only 1 side example:Merill only with Carver never with female. 

[TheBlackAdder13]

Personally, I'd like to see an "openly" bisexual character (i.e; canonically shows interest in both men and women whether or not romanced) who doesn't fit a stereotypical mold of promiscuity and lack of interest in monogamy or long term relationships (see: people pointing to Zevran and Isabela and saying "it makes sense that they're bisexual" because of their sexual mores.)

Doesn't Leliana fit this bill?

[LPPrince]

syllogi wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see an "openly" bisexual character (i.e; canonically shows interest in both men and women whether or not romanced) who doesn't fit a stereotypical mold of promiscuity and lack of interest in monogamy or long term relationships

Basically,

Squadmate- "I like both men and women. Romantically, I mean. You know, holding hands, nibbles on the ear, the meeting of lips."

PC- "Ahh. No need to look for sex anywhere you can get it?"

Squadmate- "Nope."

PC- "No past relationships that gave you issues? No slammed doors and hurt feelings?"

Squadmate- "None."

PC- "Well...damn."

Squadmate- "What?"

*PC hugs Squadmate*

PC- "Finally..."

Squadmate- "Finally what?"

PC- "Ju-...finally."

[InfinitePaths]

Filament wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Nope,I'm not thinking talks about acceptance or something like that.I'm thinking more of Isabella says to guy Hawke.I want your muscular body and to female let's have so girly fun.I'm talking about that.I'm also talking about companions showing their sexuallity outside of the romance with the protag.For example Merill could get a crush on Isabella or say how pretty female elves are,but she doesn't.She only has a crush on Carver and Male Qunari

Well I wouldn't mind divergent dialog depending on gender in that sense (I thought you meant like "OMG you're bi?!" conversations), but what does this have to do with playersexual vs bisexual?

Easilly,If a charather who is open about their sexuallity and is bisexual he/she needs to show not only sexual attraction to one of the genders but to both.If a charather is usually straight and still romances S/S protag it is just inconsist and bad.

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 20 mars 2013 - 12:29 .

[InfinitePaths]

LPPrince wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see an "openly" bisexual character (i.e; canonically shows interest in both men and women whether or not romanced) who doesn't fit a stereotypical mold of promiscuity and lack of interest in monogamy or long term relationships

Basically,

Squadmate- "I like both men and women. Romantically, I mean. You know, holding hands, nibbles on the ear, the meeting of lips."

PC- "Ahh. No need to look for sex anywhere you can get it?"

Squadmate- "Nope."

PC- "No past relationships that gave you issues? No slammed doors and hurt feelings?"

Squadmate- "None."

PC- "Well...damn."

Squadmate- "What?"

*PC hugs Squadmate*

PC- "Finally..."

Squadmate- "Finally what?"

PC- "Ju-...finally."

Kaidan ?

[InfinitePaths]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see an "openly" bisexual character (i.e; canonically shows interest in both men and women whether or not romanced) who doesn't fit a stereotypical mold of promiscuity and lack of interest in monogamy or long term relationships (see: people pointing to Zevran and Isabela and saying "it makes sense that they're bisexual" because of their sexual mores.)

Doesn't Leliana fit this bill?

Exactly,if you are going to make every companion BI,make them like Leliana,a perfect example.Not like Merill or Fenris.

[Direwolf0294]

Isabela is the only bisexual character in DA2, and I think that's how it should be. Playersexual is a gameplay mechanic meant for inclusion, the characters needn't reflect that mechanic in their personality or conversations with the player, just as they don't need to talk about that +5 sword they picked up or how they took an arrow to the knee because they failed their saving throw.

[rolson00]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Filament wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Nope,I'm not thinking talks about acceptance or something like that.I'm thinking more of Isabella says to guy Hawke.I want your muscular body and to female let's have so girly fun.I'm talking about that.I'm also talking about companions showing their sexuallity outside of the romance with the protag.For example Merill could get a crush on Isabella or say how pretty female elves are,but she doesn't.She only has a crush on Carver and Male Qunari

Well I wouldn't mind divergent dialog depending on gender in that sense (I thought you meant like "OMG you're bi?!" conversations), but what does this have to do with playersexual vs bisexual?

Easilly,If a charather who is open about their sexuallity and is bisexual he/she needs to show not only sexual attraction to one of the genders but to both.If a charather is usually straight and still romances S/S protag it is just inconsist and bad.

not always BI people do tend to swing towards a genre kinda likening  one over the other (just from what i'v observed)

[sharkboy421]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

Please forgive me as my question will probably offend but how would a true portrayal of a gay or bi LI differ from a straight LI?

Think Alistair, Morrigan, Sebastian, Leliana, Zevran, and Isabella. They all have pretty defined, fleshed out sexual orientations (straight or bi) through party banter and conversations. There just isn't an exclusively gay LI fully fleshed out like that, same sex LIs are either bisexual or playersexual.

I guess I should have taken out bi and just put gay as we do have fleshed out portrayals of bi LIs as I mentioned above but when I tacked "bi" on there I was thinking of playersexual LIs, who many people consider bi because of metagaming knowledge.

Yes there is no exclusively gay romance option in Dragon Age.  However I am going to call on the ME3 examples of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor.  Both are exclusively gay.  However other than your Shepard has to be the same gender to romance them, their romance content has the same feel and quality as any other in a Bioware game.

I guess my thought was romance is romance regardless of the partners' gender.  I thought all the romances in DA2 were up to the usual Bioware standard.  (Whether you think that is good or bad is a personal choice.)  While it would have been nice to have different dialogue depending on gender, Merrill and Lady Hawke's relationship felt every bit as real to me as the one Merrill and male Hawke had, the one broshep and Ash had, and the one femshep and Garrus had.  

For me, just because a character's orientation isn't explicitly defined it doesn't make their romance content any less valid.
 

[InfinitePaths]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Isabela is the only bisexual character in DA2, and I think that's how it should be. Playersexual is a gameplay mechanic meant for inclusion, the characters needn't reflect that mechanic in their personality or conversations with the player, just as they don't need to talk about that +5 sword they picked up or how they took an arrow to the knee because they failed their saving throw.

If a BI person is not going to talk about his/hers sexuallity,don't talk about either male liking or female liking.If you do only one of the 2 it is like the devs are saying to the fanbase in the face:We prefer straight romances.

Edit:If a person romances both male and female protag,it would be consistent if they are by that logic BI.

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 20 mars 2013 - 12:35 .

[LPPrince]

I think DA needs its Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor.

Well, maybe it doesn't "need" it, but it'd be nice.

Those two characters and their romances are a good thing that came out of Mass Effect 3.

[InfinitePaths]

LPPrince wrote...

I think DA needs its Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor.

Well, maybe it doesn't "need" it, but it'd be nice.

Those two characters and their romances are a good thing that came out of Mass Effect 3.

Especially in the Citadel DLC

Smantha and Cortez developed a bro/sis relationship
Smantha got a chrush on EDI
Cortez has the hots for the biotic ball human team.

[The Elder King]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...



Merill had a crush on carver in fact ,to me it would make sense she had a crush on Isabella(Since she spends so much time with her) but nope.

It's actually the opposite, Carver had a crush on Merrill, and asket her out, both in Act 1 and Legacy party banter.
And passing a lot of time with a person =/= having a crush. Merrill saw Isabela as a big sister.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 mars 2013 - 12:41 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

Yes there is no exclusively gay romance option in Dragon Age. However I am going to call on the ME3 examples of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor. Both are exclusively gay. However other than your Shepard has to be the same gender to romance them, their romance content has the same feel and quality as any other in a Bioware game.

I haven't played the ME series (shooters aren't my thing) but this seems to be the ideal sort of system that I'd like to see in DA.

For me, just because a character's orientation isn't explicitly defined it doesn't make their romance content any less valid.

That's the thing though, a lot of playersexual LIs seem to have explicitly defined sexual orientations outside of their romance with the PC, like Merill. Party banter suggests that she's straight.

Whereas if I had romance Fenris it wouldn't have been as distracting because he doesn't have a clearly defined orientation and it's in character for him not to really reveal things about himself.

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 20 mars 2013 - 12:40 .

[whykikyouwhy]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Isabela is the only bisexual character in DA2, and I think that's how it should be. Playersexual is a gameplay mechanic meant for inclusion, the characters needn't reflect that mechanic in their personality or conversations with the player, just as they don't need to talk about that +5 sword they picked up or how they took an arrow to the knee because they failed their saving throw.

If a BI person is not going to talk about his/hers sexuallity,don't talk about either male liking or female liking.If you do only one of the 2 it is like the devs are saying to the fanbase in the face:We prefer straight romances.

Edit:If a person romances both male and female protag,it would be consistent if they are by that logic BI.

I don't think that's a fair statement about the devs.

Finding someone attractive ("easy on the eyes" to paraphrase Merrill) does not necessarily mean that you want to sleep with them. A person can find someone of the opposite gender to be physically or characteristically attractive and alluring, and thus comment on it, without it taking away from his/her sexuality. The same holds true for someone who considers his/herself straight - he/she may comment on someone of the same gender without it being indicative of desire.

If a character is going to make any sort of comment about attractiveness of someone else, why not make it consistent to the type of person that character is - shy, outgoing, bookish, kind, witty, etc. I would rather see other qualities about a character be what feeds into dialogue, and not have that dialogue try to align with perceived stereotypes.

[Direwolf0294]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Isabela is the only bisexual character in DA2, and I think that's how it should be. Playersexual is a gameplay mechanic meant for inclusion, the characters needn't reflect that mechanic in their personality or conversations with the player, just as they don't need to talk about that +5 sword they picked up or how they took an arrow to the knee because they failed their saving throw.

If a BI person is not going to talk about his/hers sexuallity,don't talk about either male liking or female liking.If you do only one of the 2 it is like the devs are saying to the fanbase in the face:We prefer straight romances.

Edit:If a person romances both male and female protag,it would be consistent if they are by that logic BI.

A companion being open to romance by both player genders is, 90% of the time, playersexual, no bisexual. There's a difference. Bisexuals are people who are attracted to both genders, playersexual is something BioWare put into DA2, and possibly future games, to be more inclusive of the LGBT community by allowing them to have access to as many romances as straight PC's normally get. The whole point of a playersexual character is that they can be straight or gay depending on the person playing the games own head canon. In my DA2, Merrill is gay, not bi; in yours she might be straight and in someone elses she might be bi. Having these character display their attraction to both genders completely undermines the whole point of them in the first place.

That's why I said Isabela is the only bi companion, because she does display an attraction to both genders, regardless of the PC's gender, and you can't head canon it that she's either straight, gay or bi. She's bi, end of story. Your other three romanceable companions aren't like that, and that's the way it should be, because playersexual characters sexuality is by and large meant to be left up to the player.

Now, if DA3 wanted to include a playersexual character that was also bisexual, like Isabela was, I'd have no problem with that, so long as not every, single playersexual character acted like that.