596 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

imbs wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

There's a weird weird idea to make a gameplay thread.

You know instead of whining in this thread you could make a thread offering gameplay improvements.I don't go i nto gameplay threads talking about romances.

It's a waste of time.

And how is coming in here whining to us less of a waste of time? Not only do you do you not even take the chance that your gameplay improvements would be looked at but you're coming into a thread and trying to take it off topic.

[imbs]

Ryzaki wrote...

imbs wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

There's a weird weird idea to make a gameplay thread.

You know instead of whining in this thread you could make a thread offering gameplay improvements.I don't go i nto gameplay threads talking about romances.

It's a waste of time.

And how is coming in here whining to us less of a waste of time? Not only do you do you not even take the chance that your gameplay improvements would be looked at but you're coming into a thread and trying to take it off topic.

I am genuinely curious as to why you people think the sexuality of a bunch of NPCs in a computer game is so important.

[Iakus]

imbs wrote...

I am genuinely curious as to why you people think the sexuality of a bunch of NPCs in a computer game is so important.

Because a story-based rpg is composed of both gaemplay and narratve,

The personality and preferences of theNPCs is part of the narrative.  

[BeatoSama]

Then create a gameplay thread if that is important to you and let other people create threads about what's important to them.

[Ryzaki]

imbs wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

imbs wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

There's a weird weird idea to make a gameplay thread.

You know instead of whining in this thread you could make a thread offering gameplay improvements.I don't go i nto gameplay threads talking about romances.

It's a waste of time.

And how is coming in here whining to us less of a waste of time? Not only do you do you not even take the chance that your gameplay improvements would be looked at but you're coming into a thread and trying to take it off topic.

I am genuinely curious as to why you people think the sexuality of a bunch of NPCs in a computer game is so important.

...That's been already said several times in this thread.

[Pasquale1234]

katiebour wrote...

Here's an excerpt from the upcoming book World of Thedas that was the very first thing I saw when I used Amazon's preview feature to peek inside what was available (and which is no longer available, I think, because they redacted a bunch of the pages that we had available to drool over in anticipation for a mere two glorious days or so):



As near as I can tell what with the really tiny writing, it reads:

********************************

THE SEX LIVES OF EVERYDAY THEDOSIANS

What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.

Typically, one’s sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance.

Yet even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows.

The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land.  In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more.  In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy.  In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves.  Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgement when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye.

-From In Pursuit of Knowledge:  The Travels of a Chantry Scholar by Brother Genitivi 

****************

So there you have it.  That's how Thedosians view the spectrum of sexuality.  Buy World of Thedas!  It's coming out soon and has lots of tasty lore!

Thanks for posting that - it's a great read.

I've suggested before, in other such threads, that Thedas does not appear to have any concept of sexual orientation. (Our own world had no such concept until the late 1800s)  No need to categorize anyone's sexual activities or proclivities, no impetus to analyze their own attractions to try to define them in any way - at least not where gender is concerned.

Something else that has been previously discussed in this thread:

Sexual orientation labels must be self-selected. 

Merely observing that a character (of some apparent gender) is sexually involved with another character (also of some apparent gender) does not mean that they are not capable of engaging in sexual expression with a character of another apparent gender.

At no point has any character in Thedas mentioned sexual orientation or applied a label to themselves.

Yet we have forumites vigorously proclaiming that AVELINE IS STRAIGHT because she was married to Ser Wesley and Guardsman Donnic.  Aveline has not told us that she considers herself straight, nor has she ever indicated that she is not sexually attracted to women.  The only thing we know about Aveline's sexuality is that she has been married to two men (and possibly that she's not interested in Hawke's flirtations).  That does not constitute conclusive evidence.

We also see that Isabela is frequently labeled bisexual.  Isabela clearly enjoys sex and is not picky about the gender of her partners.  However, some people make distinctions between basic rutting and relationships - and for all we know, Isabela may find that she feels much more comfortable in genuine emotional intimacy with one gender.  If she were to choose, for example, to enter a long-term relationship with another woman, she might label herself a lesbian, even if she continued to engage in trysts with men on the side.  And vice-versa.

Bisexuality does not mean that one is equally attracted to both genders.

And since there are many different levels and layers to human sexuality, these terms do not mean the same thing to everyone who uses them.

Do you see the utter futility of trying to apply labels where they may not fit?

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but why are you simply dismissing folk that have an issue with this? Isn't that one-sided?

I'd like to see a dev say something like this on anything other than a social issue and see if the forums don't just implode with rage.

I think David is correctly belittling a trivial complaint.

[Pheonix57]

Let me break it down for you:

- Fenris had never been intimate with anyone before, ever. So you couldn't know his preferences.
- Merrill never told us if she'd had relations with anyone, but with her clan issues I'm leaning towards "none". In any event, until you romance her, you know nothing of her preferences. The girl could have been sexually attracted to potatoes for all we knew.
- Isabela makes it clear that she's had relations with both genders, and is even willing to hook-up with a female Warden in Origins.
- Anders, despite his flirting with women in awakening, always gave me the impression that he was a bit of a waffle. I mean come on, a guy who's spent his life locked in the Circle, and you think he wouldn't want to try everything after escaping? The story about him and Karl made since to me, and let's be honest: That earring in awakening? The man sent my gaydar screaming.

So in short, I don't see your problem. However, if Cullen is available for bisexual romance in DA:I, I will be a little bit surprised, but it's because he was only attracted to a female mage in DA:O. I mean, he wasn't even all nervous around a guy mage. But it's not like the Templars have a wealth of opportunities to discover themselves, so I could accept it.

Modifié par Pheonix57, 21 mars 2013 - 05:11 .

[iOnlySignIn]

I agree with Mr. Gaider.

OP (and many others complaining about the same thing) obviously have not the faintest idea what bisexual people IRL are like.

Say if I'm courting a woman. Would I brag to her about how accomplished a fellator I am? I'm bisexual, not stupid.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 21 mars 2013 - 05:22 .

[The Elder King]

Actually, Fenris had a sexual relationship with his master (hinted in DA2, confirmed later by Bioware devs). The fact that he doesn't remember, and that the relationship was probably forced mean that this doesn't conclude which are his preferences, but regardless, he was intimate (in a sexual way) with someone in the past.

[iOnlySignIn]

Pheonix57 wrote...

- Anders, despite his flirting with women in awakening, always gave me the impression that he was a bit of a waffle. I mean come on, a guy who's spent his life locked in the Circle, and you think he wouldn't want to try everything after escaping? The story about him and Karl made since to me, and let's be honest: That earring in awakening? The man sent my gaydar screaming.

Yep. 

Justice seems to be asexual though. 

[Alraiis]

From my perspective, each playthrough is its own self-contained reality. If Merrill falls in love with a female Hawke in one person's game and a male Hawke in another, that doesn't necessarily mean the character is bi—she could, alternatively, be a lesbian in one and straight in the other.

The player's class choice sets whether it's Carver or Bethany who dies, so why couldn't other character-creation choices (like gender) have other consequences on the nature of characters? There's no overlapping of those outcomes (i.e., Carver both alive and dead), so I don't see how you can use Merrill's falling for Hawkes of two different genders to state conclusively that she's bi. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. I hadn't really thought about it, honestly.

To use an example from another game: In Blade Runner, (15-year-old game spoiler warning!) when you started a new game, a behind-the-scenes roll randomly set certain characters as human or replicant. Different games had different identities for these characters, and it wasn't up to the player at all. Of course, you wouldn't think a character was both human and replicant just because they could be either. Granted, there's no mutual exclusivity in our DA example, as being bi is a perfectly valid character trait, but it could also be the case that some characters' sexualities are purely set based on the player's gender or their decision to flirt, which is why there's no explicit mention of those preferences—it's to accommodate that customization. These aren't real people; they can (potentially) be two different things in different instances of the story.

Modifié par Alraiis, 21 mars 2013 - 05:45 .

[Hazegurl]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think David is correctly belittling a trivial complaint.

No more trivial than complaints about thermal clips. About Leliana being in DA ][ after she was killed.

The complaint from OP:
It is so wierd that in DA2 Merill and Fenris showed no real indication
that their sexuality is bisexual if they did not romance Hawke.

A trivial complaint that doesn't even make sense. Why would Merrill and Fenris display bisexuality to a Hawke they are not romancing.

It is so
weird that Merill only has a sexual interest in female hawke and no
other female charather in the enitre game.

OP, expects the devs to take the time to show Merrill either with or talk about other women just to justify her feelings for one woman. Trivial.

if you are going to make all
companions have a bisexual sexuallity make them express it,their
sexuallity is a part of their personallity.

David already took the time to address this ridiculous claim.

As for Leliana, I agree they dropped the ball on that one. She's no Flemeth.

[Harle Cerulean]

Alraiis wrote...

From my perspective, each playthrough is its own self-contained reality. If Merrill falls in love with a female Hawke in one person's game and a male Hawke in another, that doesn't necessarily mean the character is bi—she could, alternatively, be a lesbian in one and straight in the other.

The player's gender choice sets, for instance, whether it's Carver or Bethany who dies, so why couldn't it have other behind-the-scenes consequences on the nature of characters? There's no overlapping of those outcomes (i.e., Carver both alive and dead), so I don't see how you can use Merrill's falling for Hawkes of two different genders to state conclusively that she's bi. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. I hadn't really thought about it, honestly.

To use an example from another game: In Blade Runner, (15-year-old game spoiler warning!) when you started a new game, a behind-the-scenes roll randomly set certain characters as human or replicant. Different games had different identities for these characters, and it wasn't up to the player at all. Of course, you wouldn't think a character was both human and replicant just because they could be either. Granted, there's no mutual exclusivity in our DA example, as being bi is a perfectly valid character trait, but it could also be the case that some characters' sexualities are purely set based on the player's gender or their decision to flirt, which is why there's no explicit mention of those preferences—it's to accommodate that customization. These aren't real people; they can (potentially) be two different things in different instances of the story.

Except that in this very thread (as well as other places), David Gaider has explicitly stated that they don't change sexualities?  He's also said they're not all bisexual, but there are more sexualities in heaven and earth, Horatio.

[Alraiis]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Except that in this very thread (as well as other places), David Gaider has explicitly stated that they don't change sexualities?  He's also said they're not all bisexual, but there are more sexualities in heaven and earth, Horatio.

Fair enough, I guess. That's not quite how I saw it, but I'll cede that that's the writers' call.

I will clarify, though, that I don't think the characters "change" sexualities (that, to me, would imply that a transition within the plot). Just that their sexuality can't be clearly labeled, so I didn't agree with the OP's labeling of them as "bi characters".

Modifié par Alraiis, 21 mars 2013 - 05:51 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

No more trivial than complaints about thermal clips. About Leliana being in DA ][ after she was killed.

I'd say those are significantly more relevant points (particularly the thermal clips, where there's a good argument to be made that they made the game worse, regardless of any world-consistency complaints).

[Tootles FTW]

hhh89 wrote...

Actually, Fenris had a sexual relationship with his master (hinted in DA2, confirmed later by Bioware devs). The fact that he doesn't remember, and that the relationship was probably forced mean that this doesn't conclude which are his preferences, but regardless, he was intimate (in a sexual way) with someone in the past.

I...what?  When was this?  As I recall Fenris pretty much denies having been used sexually by Danarius - he says to Hawke that he's never been with anyone, and states to Isabela during party banter that he was strictly Danarius's bodyguard (and Isabela was questioning specifically on whether Danarius took liberties with his "glistening body").  

[New Display Name]

Tootles FTW wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Actually, Fenris had a sexual relationship with his master (hinted in DA2, confirmed later by Bioware devs). The fact that he doesn't remember, and that the relationship was probably forced mean that this doesn't conclude which are his preferences, but regardless, he was intimate (in a sexual way) with someone in the past.

I...what?  When was this?  As I recall Fenris pretty much denies having been used sexually by Danarius - he says to Hawke that he's never been with anyone, and states to Isabela during party banter that he was strictly Danarius's bodyguard (and Isabela was questioning specifically on whether Danarius took liberties with his "glistening body").  

Fenris also doesn't/didn't remember many things from his past. I imagine something as traumatic as being sexually used would be more likely to be one of them.

[Hazegurl]

Tootles FTW wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Actually, Fenris had a sexual relationship with his master (hinted in DA2, confirmed later by Bioware devs). The fact that he doesn't remember, and that the relationship was probably forced mean that this doesn't conclude which are his preferences, but regardless, he was intimate (in a sexual way) with someone in the past.

I...what?  When was this?  As I recall Fenris pretty much denies having been used sexually by Danarius - he says to Hawke that he's never been with anyone, and states to Isabela during party banter that he was strictly Danarius's bodyguard (and Isabela was questioning specifically on whether Danarius took liberties with his "glistening body").  

I think they mean the scene when you confront Danarius and he implies that Hawke is jealous (if you pick "He doesn't belong to anyone") and he notes that he is jealous because of Fenris' "skills". Fenris immidiately wants to shut him up, if he was nothing but a guard then why try to quiet him so quickly? Plus the " his little wolf" stuff and the way Danarious' eyes trail over Fenris' body if you sell him back to him implies some form of sexual abuse going on. Mind you, it's all implied and never outright stated in game. I However, also believe there was sexual abuse between them. Danrius just looks like a straight up rapist. 

In the Male Hawke playthrough there is no mention of Fenris not having sexual relations before. This seems to only exist in the female Hawke playthrough. I've romanced him several times as a male and Fenris being a virgin convo never comes up but it did when I played a female Hawke...unless I keep on missing it in my male playthroughs.

Also Fenris could have denied molestation (glistening) claims simply because that's not something he would want to talk to Isabela or anyone about. Especially in front of all their friends and in public. Oh yeah and the whole lack of memory thing...that seems to only come back during a moment of sex. Not uncommon for sexual abuse victims.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 21 mars 2013 - 07:09 .

[esper]

Hazegurl wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Actually, Fenris had a sexual relationship with his master (hinted in DA2, confirmed later by Bioware devs). The fact that he doesn't remember, and that the relationship was probably forced mean that this doesn't conclude which are his preferences, but regardless, he was intimate (in a sexual way) with someone in the past.

I...what?  When was this?  As I recall Fenris pretty much denies having been used sexually by Danarius - he says to Hawke that he's never been with anyone, and states to Isabela during party banter that he was strictly Danarius's bodyguard (and Isabela was questioning specifically on whether Danarius took liberties with his "glistening body").  

I think they mean the scene when you confront Danarius and he implies that Hawke is jealous (if you pick "He doesn't belong to anyone") and he notes that he is jealous because of Fenris' "skills". Fenris immidiately wants to shut him up, if he was nothing but a guard then why try to quiet him so quickly? Plus the " his little wolf" stuff and the way Danarious' eyes trail over Fenris' body if you sell him back to him implies some form of sexual abuse going on. Mind you, it's all implied and never outright stated in game. I However, also believe there was sexual abuse between them. Danrius just looks like a straight up rapist. 

In the Male Hawke playthrough there is no mention of Fenris not having sexual relations before. This seems to only exist in the female Hawke playthrough. I've romanced him several times as a male and Fenris being a virgin convo never comes up but it did when I played a female Hawke...unless I keep on missing it in my male playthroughs.

Also Fenris could have denied molestation (glistening) claims simply because that's not something he would want to talk to Isabela or anyone about. Especially in front of all their friends and in public. Oh yeah and the whole lack of memory thing...that seems to only come back during a moment of sex. Not uncommon for sexual abuse victims.

But no matter if Danerius used Fenris like that or not, does it really say anything about Fenris' sexuality? I doubt that Fenris' consent was anything Danerius cared about.

[Silfren]

Saibh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

That depends, did you purposefully misunderstand Silfren's argument as her misusing the term "marginalization" as an excuse to whine about not being able to date any fictional character she wants? Because that wasn't what she was talking about at all.

She was saying that Bioware does not place arbitrary limitations on characters of a particular race or gender because Bioware is sensitive to the fact that female and minority gamers have enough of that crap to put up with in real life.

And you're really missing the "perfect world" aspect again, as Silfren did. 

In and of itself, there is NOTHING marginalizing about someone not picking you because you're a woman or a man. 

I'm saying that her argument is on its own merits completely flawed. If she wants to argue that BioWare shouldn't go back to the old method because there aren't enough fair choices for not-straight people? Not an argument here. But since she is, in fact, arguing the idea that if at any time a character rejects you because they are not interested in your gender, that this is marginializing, even if you have twenty other options, yeah, I disagree.

The act of marginalization is in the creation of content designed exclusively for a heteronormative audience.

It absolutely is not if there is an equal amount of content designed for everyone else and this has been my entire point this entire time.

Why do you keep going on about this perfect world b.s.? There is no perfect world, it's only a hypothetical, and last I checked, we were NOT discussing hypothetical situations, but the reality of things as they are.  You wanna discuss hypotheticals, I'll gladly do so, but not in THIS discussion, as it was never the premise or the point.

Plaintiff and I already made the point about what I meant about marginalization, which was not what you thought it was, so I won't repeat myself here. 

I will say, again, that providing an equal amount of content does NOT solve the problem of players being locked out of certain romances when they want to pursue those romances according to their preferred gender.  Origins might have provided equal content, but it still prevented players from romancing Morrigan with a female Warden, and from romancing Alistair as the male counterpart.  There is no good reason to arbitrarily prevent players from romancing any of the availble LI's, so making all LI's available to all genders is the most efficient and fair way to handle the issue.

[Medhia Nox]

Just read that Tevinter considers homosexuality deviant and selfish (if that's what the text says)... first time since I purchased Dragon Age 2 that I've raised a brow in total pleasure at the direction Bioware would take the DA universe.

Bravo - and brilliant. If we go to Tevinter though - I want to SEE this opinion in action.

Now - commence with utterly misinterpreting "why" I find that a brillaint choice.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 mars 2013 - 07:40 .

[Silfren]

SgtElias wrote...

imbs wrote...

I love how no one on this board actually cares about gameplay. Why does a thread about sexuality get 21 pages ? DA should be a game not a dating simulator

I love how some people come into this thread simply to complain that it exists, instead of contributing to it in any meaningful way. Why would anyone waste their time in such a manner?

Because they want to derail the discussion and turn it into what they want to talk about because they're too lazy to make their own thread. 

Also, they want attention, so they make the thread about them and their wants.