596 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

One thing about the playersexual issue that I don't think a lot of straight people appreciate: a person CAN identify as straight OR gay, only to inexplicably find themselves physically attracted to or in love with someone outside of that dynamic. I've seen it happen more than once. It doesn't necessarily mean, either, that they were "really" just bi and either in denial or unaware of that fact. Nor does it mean, for a straight person, that they "never knew" they were 'gay' until that moment. So it is not exactly unrealistic or implausible that a person who had identified as straight their entire life, found themselves in love with a person of the same gender...only to NEVER be attracted to another such person of that gender ever again. So I don't personally find it all that strange that, say, a straight Merrill could, to her own surprise, fall in love with a fem!Hawke. Again, it does NOT automatically mean that all along she was really just gay or bi and didn't realize it. That assumption is the domain of people who have been raised to believe that sexuality is rigidly defined in one of three ways.

But sexuality doesn't work that way, it is not a zero sum either/or game. It is often fluid, and in many cases the assumption of a default orientation for the general population is not a biological thing, but a cultural one.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 mars 2013 - 01:40 .

[Silfren]

LPPrince wrote...

Lemme try to rapidly bring this back on topic-

What are the chances Bioware's been given the necessary funds to give the "optimal" solution of an equal amount of hetero, ******, and bisexual options instead of making every option playersexual?

I don't understand why you think this is the optimal solution.  In Origins, many people wanted to romance Morrigan as a female Warden, or Alistair as a male Warden.  Providing more options for hetero-, bi-, and homosexual romance pairings doesn't solve this, if Character A is only open to female characters but a population of players want to play male characters but also want to romance that character. 

So no, this solution is not optimal, it just leads to people implementing mods to force an otherwise off-limits romance, which creates very interesting and sometimes very awkwad dialogue.

[dragondreamer]

Silfren wrote...

One thing about the playersexual issue that I don't think a lot of straight people appreciate: a person CAN identify as straight OR gay, only to inexplicably find themselves physically attracted to or in love with someone outside of that dynamic. I've seen it happen more than once. It doesn't necessarily mean, either, that they were "really" just bi and either in denial or unaware of that fact. Nor does it mean, for a straight person, that they "never knew" they were 'gay' until that moment. So it is not exactly unrealistic or implausible that a person who had identified as straight their entire life, found themselves in love with a person of the same gender...only to NEVER be attracted to another such person of that gender ever again. So I don't personally find it all that strange that, say, a straight Merrill could, to her own surprise, fall in love with a fem!Hawke. Again, it does NOT automatically mean that all along she was really just gay or bi and didn't realize it. That assumption is the domain of people who have been raised to believe that sexuality is rigidly defined in one of three ways.

But sexuality doesn't work that way, it is not a zero sum either/or game. It is often fluid, and in many cases the assumption of a default orientation for general population is not a biological thing, but a cultural one.

This.  Thank you.  

[ScarMK]

Darth Krytie wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...



I understand making these relationships more difficult if you don't align well to their opinions (which is already true), but at least with Fenris (I haven't tried romancing Anders yet) I thought the relationship was more interesting if you romance him with a mage.  Feelings aren't always convenient, and the more complicated emotions make for a better story.   And piling irony on Fenris is just all kinds of fun.

Being able to romance a character doesn't necessarily mean the relationship always ends well, however.  My second mage Hawke was apparently not enough of a sexual Mary Sue to keep Fenris.  

Having choices doesn't mean the outcome will always be favorable.  But it's very nice to have choices. 

I totally romanced Fenris as a mage and Anders as a templar supporter. It was interesting. I was just saying I wouldn't have minded if I couldn't. I wouldn't mind if there were restrictions based on your actions. Because for me? Someone's actions always matter more to me than their gender.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not, since that is what my post was getting at.  

[DarkSpiral]

I personally though that the LIs being available to any player character was a bit cheesy. I realize plenty of people wanted to be able to romance Alistair or Morrigan with same gender Wardens, but I prefer Alistair and Morrigan to be Alistair and Morrigan. Not a version of themselves that actually had no effect whatsoever on their personality or outlook.

And I'm bisexual myself. Just so anyone that wants to claim I'm defaulting to the straight white male POV knows it isn't so.

The very fact that I, essentially, got to decide their sexual orientation for them was an eye-rolling immersion breaker. I much prefer characters that have personalities that are defined outside of my character. Therefore my relationship to them is defined by the itneraction between them and the PC, not entirely by the PC.

[Hazegurl]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

 It is so wierd that in DA2 Merill and Fenris showed no real indication that their sexuality is bisexual if they did not romance Hawke.It is so weird that Merill only has a sexual interest in female hawke and no other female charather in the enitre game.if you are going to make all companions have a bisexual sexuallity make them express it,their sexuallity is a part of their personallity.Also I think only Isabella had special dialouge with Fem Hawke,saying stuff like girly fun etc... plus she already said that she is BI,this makes her relationship with a femHawke seem real,consistent and just great.Merill treats Fem Hawke like male Hawke,she also never said that she has an interest in girls,making it so strange and doesn't feel right.

Just because Fenris and Merrill can romance either the male or female Hawke does not make them bisexual. If you are playing a male Hawke then the female Hawke doesn't even exist. This would make Merrill straight if you romance her as a male and Fenris gay.

It would suck if all the romancable characters were walking around claiming bisexuality. Although, I can never view Fenris as a straight man no matter what Hawke's gender is, period.  

[Silfren]

DarkSpiral wrote...

I personally though that the LIs being available to any player character was a bit cheesy. I realize plenty of people wanted to be able to romance Alistair or Morrigan with same gender Wardens, but I prefer Alistair and Morrigan to be Alistair and Morrigan. Not a version of themselves that actually had no effect whatsoever on their personality or outlook.

And I'm bisexual myself. Just so anyone that wants to claim I'm defaulting to the straight white male POV knows it isn't so.

The very fact that I, essentially, got to decide their sexual orientation for them was an eye-rolling immersion breaker. I much prefer characters that have personalities that are defined outside of my character. Therefore my relationship to them is defined by the itneraction between them and the PC, not entirely by the PC.

The question of how much personality is tied up with sexuality is a tricky one.  I don't think it can be said that sexuality does not influence a person's personality at all.  But neither do I think it could be accurately said that Alistair would not have been Alistair if he had been available to male Wardens.  He wouldn't have STOPPED being Alistair if he'd been gay or bi, no more so than someone suddenly becomes a different person in the eyes of their friends and family if they happen to come "out" after three decades of identifying as (or being assumed to be) straight.  

[DarkSpiral]

Hazegurl wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

 It is so wierd that in DA2 Merill and Fenris showed no real indication that their sexuality is bisexual if they did not romance Hawke.It is so weird that Merill only has a sexual interest in female hawke and no other female charather in the enitre game.if you are going to make all companions have a bisexual sexuallity make them express it,their sexuallity is a part of their personallity.Also I think only Isabella had special dialouge with Fem Hawke,saying stuff like girly fun etc... plus she already said that she is BI,this makes her relationship with a femHawke seem real,consistent and just great.Merill treats Fem Hawke like male Hawke,she also never said that she has an interest in girls,making it so strange and doesn't feel right.

Just because Fenris and Merrill can romance either the male or female Hawke does not make them bisexual. If you are playing a male Hawke then the female Hawke doesn't even exist. This would make Merrill straight if you romance her as a male and Fenris gay.

It would suck if all the romancable characters were walking around claiming bisexuality. Although, I can never view Fenris as a straight man no matter what Hawke's gender is, period.  

Well now that's a probelm then isn't it?  Their characters are left vague so they can assume a romantic relationship with anyone at all.  Fenris being with a mage made as little sense as Anders with a Chantry-supporter, yet it doesn't even bear mentioning.

Actually, now that I think of it, Fenris does in fact have a conversation where the olayer can birng uo that they're an apostate.  But noone else ever does.

The playersexual was, imho, much like the dominant tone mechanic in DA2.  A worhty experiment that needs to be revised in future game.

Its the blanket application, and the fact that their personalities cannot be allowed to reflect any sexual preferencesto avoid conflicting with the player romance possibility, that bothers me.

[DarkSpiral]

Silfren wrote...

The question of how much personality is tied up with sexuality is a tricky one.  I don't think it can be said that sexuality does not influence a person's personality at all.  But neither do I think it could be accurately said that Alistair would not have been Alistair if he had been available to male Wardens.  He wouldn't have STOPPED being Alistair if he'd been gay or bi,

Yes, you're correct of course.  I should avoid using Alistair and Morrigan, because they were actually presented with only heterosexual options in the first place.

no more so than someone suddenly becomes a different person in the eyes of their friends and family if they happen to come "out" after three decades of identifying as (or being assumed to be) straight.

Really? 
I can think of many example to the contrary.  Nevermind that, though, that is RL and not the DA games.

You can say that the issue of how much personality is tied up into sexuality is a tricky one, and you'd be absolutely right.  There are an awful lot of facotrs involved.  My issue with the presentation of sexuality in DA2 is that NONE of those factors appear to have been dealt with.  It was all handwaived, for the sake of allowing any played the option of any possible LI.  And that was a mistake.  Because there are so very many factors, some of them should have had SOME effect on the LIs that weren't straight.  And they didn't.

[Hazegurl]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

 It is so wierd that in DA2 Merill and Fenris showed no real indication that their sexuality is bisexual if they did not romance Hawke.It is so weird that Merill only has a sexual interest in female hawke and no other female charather in the enitre game.if you are going to make all companions have a bisexual sexuallity make them express it,their sexuallity is a part of their personallity.Also I think only Isabella had special dialouge with Fem Hawke,saying stuff like girly fun etc... plus she already said that she is BI,this makes her relationship with a femHawke seem real,consistent and just great.Merill treats Fem Hawke like male Hawke,she also never said that she has an interest in girls,making it so strange and doesn't feel right.

Just because Fenris and Merrill can romance either the male or female Hawke does not make them bisexual. If you are playing a male Hawke then the female Hawke doesn't even exist. This would make Merrill straight if you romance her as a male and Fenris gay.

It would suck if all the romancable characters were walking around claiming bisexuality. Although, I can never view Fenris as a straight man no matter what Hawke's gender is, period.  

Well now that's a probelm then isn't it?  Their characters are left vague so they can assume a romantic relationship with anyone at all.  Fenris being with a mage made as little sense as Anders with a Chantry-supporter, yet it doesn't even bear mentioning.

Actually, now that I think of it, Fenris does in fact have a conversation where the olayer can birng uo that they're an apostate.  But noone else ever does.

The playersexual was, imho, much like the dominant tone mechanic in DA2.  A worhty experiment that needs to be revised in future game.

Its the blanket application, and the fact that their personalities cannot be allowed to reflect any sexual preferencesto avoid conflicting with the player romance possibility, that bothers me.

I only romance Fenris so I can't speak for everyone else but I always saw Fenris as gay from the start. He right away starts a bit of flirting with my Man Hawke before Hawke is given the chance. Then I can continue the flirting later. The fact that he is more than open to it is enough for me to know that he is into men and is attracted to Hawke. After sex with him you can ask him if it was strange being with another man and he confirms that it wasn't an issue. As for being a mage Hawke with Fenris. I would have liked it if it was a bit more difficult to begin a relationship with him, but to have it completely off the table would make no sense at all to me. People fall in love with those who hold different opinions than them all the time. You can argue and fight about it et al but the passion is still there hence why rivalmances are more passionate than friendmances. Fenris brings up you being a mage more than once and on the rival path he even admits that you could be the death of him.

The only time I found the relationship odd was when I took the elf girl as a slave, made no apologies about it, and told Fenris I wasn't going to listen to him about it. Then he shows up at my place where I am holding a slave and he has hot sex with Hawke. Not that I mind the hot sex part, but i think it would have been more interesting if that could have been a wrench thrown into the relationship, not end it but make Fenris back off until you get rid of her or it drives him too crazy to be apart from you.  In otherwords I think rival romances need more scenes and dialouge than friendship romances as they should be harder to enter into.

I do know that with Anders he explains that Karl was his lover and asks you right away if that is a problem for you.

[Darth Krytie]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I totally romanced Fenris as a mage and Anders as a templar supporter. It was interesting. I was just saying I wouldn't have minded if I couldn't. I wouldn't mind if there were restrictions based on your actions. Because for me? Someone's actions always matter more to me than their gender.

There are certain actions you can take in the game that will end a romance with either of them, I believe.

Yeah, I think the murder knife is quite final. lol

I was more meaning in the sense of your actions outside of selling your LI back into slavery or knifing them in the gut. Like...if you start supporting all the slavers, Fenris just gets sick of you and dumps you for it. That sort of thing.

[LPPrince]

SongstressKitsune wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

I think words are the problem, what we need to illustrate this is a diagram, or maybe some kind of interpretive dance. Actually maybe those two bottles of cheap wine would help.

*sounds heard in the background*

Squadmate-"THE SONG OF MY PEOPLE."

*hurriedly shuffles away*

PC-"What the hell"

*insert interpretive dance*

Squadmate-"I LOVE GIRLS, GIRLS ARE GREAT. I LOVE GIRLS, THEY'RE MY MATES!"

*PC stares with O_o expression, possibly joins in on dance and song based on player's decision*

Aaannnddd I had to look away from my laptop to avoid spitting my drink on it.

Well played.

Thaaank yooou

[Plaintiff]

LPPrince wrote...

Hell, if the spread of options(hetero, ******, bi) is expensive(I imagine because more options equals more happy players), I'd think about reducing the amount of options.

2 heterosexuals, 2 homosexuals, and 2 bisexuals=6 romanceable squadmates, which could be too much

so why not 1 heterosexual, 1 homosexual, and 1 bisexual? Yeah, its only three, but then does the game really need a ton of romance options?

So then how do the genders break down in order to ensure that males and females of all sexualities have a fair number of options?

[Plaintiff]

DarkSpiral wrote...

I personally though that the LIs being available to any player character was a bit cheesy. I realize plenty of people wanted to be able to romance Alistair or Morrigan with same gender Wardens, but I prefer Alistair and Morrigan to be Alistair and Morrigan. Not a version of themselves that actually had no effect whatsoever on their personality or outlook.

And I'm bisexual myself. Just so anyone that wants to claim I'm defaulting to the straight white male POV knows it isn't so.

The very fact that I, essentially, got to decide their sexual orientation for them was an eye-rolling immersion breaker. I much prefer characters that have personalities that are defined outside of my character. Therefore my relationship to them is defined by the itneraction between them and the PC, not entirely by the PC.

So when you hang out with friends whose sexuality isn't rigidly defined, is your immersion broken then? In what way does the lack of a rigidly defined sexuality ruin their personality?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 mars 2013 - 06:43 .

[Saibh]

Silfren wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Lemme try to rapidly bring this back on topic-

What are the chances Bioware's been given the necessary funds to give the "optimal" solution of an equal amount of hetero, ******, and bisexual options instead of making every option playersexual?

I don't understand why you think this is the optimal solution.  In Origins, many people wanted to romance Morrigan as a female Warden, or Alistair as a male Warden.  Providing more options for hetero-, bi-, and homosexual romance pairings doesn't solve this, if Character A is only open to female characters but a population of players want to play male characters but also want to romance that character. 

So no, this solution is not optimal, it just leads to people implementing mods to force an otherwise off-limits romance, which creates very interesting and sometimes very awkwad dialogue.

In a perfect world with unlimited resources, I completely disagree. I don't think it matters whether you really really really wanted to romance one character and couldn't because they weren't interested. Hell, I'd like for that to happen more often. You want to free all mages? Well, super religious Chantry templar brother guy has absolutely no interest in you.

I think sexuality is one of the more concrete demarcations of interest, since it's barrier that isn't overcome by personality for almost every person. At least you can argue that maybe, maybe you have enough chemistry with hates-all-humans dwarf girl, since it's a distinction based on prejudice and opinion, rather than set orientation. 

In a perfect world, I'd love to be rejected by characters because they simply aren't interested. Of course, when it comes to non-orientation restrictions you're more likely to see (more) endless complaining, as with characters like Kasumi or Sten.

But as we do not live in a perfect world, I can see why someone would be disappointed with DAO, since if you play as a gay guy, your only option is Zevran. I believe inclusiveness should be favored over individuality. 

[ultimatekotorfan]

I personally enjoy immersion even if it means a lack of options as long as something is keeping with the plot of the narrative and done well. This is why I enjoyed getting shot down by Samantha Traynor or Morrigan, because they have defined sexual preferences that don't depend on my PCs gender. More reserved characters, such as Kaidan or Fenris I have less of a problem with, seeing as they don't usually discuss their sexuallity. However a character begins to feel a bit cheap when their sexuality is dependent only upon my whim. Leaving the sexuality of a character ambiguous when it doesn't fit their character may give me more options, but it also seems a bit like lazy writing).

[Inquisitor Recon]

Bioware needs to reach the next level of playersexuality, for the sake of the inclusiveness equality of political correctness and other words that looks nice when The Escapist and Kotaku write some article about it or when EA needs good press.

What I mean is that the entire party should assemble at some point early in the game, and then the player gets to tell them all what they are now banging. Those two ladies, yep, they're now interested in each other, but only when the inquisitor is watching. That guy, it's now his goal life to bang a broodmother. It's your choice what their choice is.

It's a better option than arguing about ratios and quotas where you are expected to provide a 1:1:1 ratio of straight, gay, and bisexual romance options for both females and males. The human population, doesn't work that way, but whatever. Somebody might be offended otherwise. In fact, maybe the player should be able to design their perfect waifu so nobody can ever be offended.

Or there is the absurd notion that romances could be de-emphasized somewhat and not be treated as the defining feature of Bioware games... nah. BSN without so much romance obsessed craziness? Impossible.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

[Khayness]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

Or there is the absurd notion that romances could be de-emphasized somewhat and not be treated as the defining feature of Bioware games... nah. BSN without so much romance obsessed craziness? Impossible.

BioWare should go make Dating Sims, screw the CoD crowd, this is where the real money is!

Or a gritty realistic military twitch shooter with romance options?!

EA mah boi, this one is free.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Having a large cast of NPCs who appeal sexually/romantically to different niches and "fetishes" is the height of good storytelling and prevents a game from being generic or boring.

What kind of game is it when you can't have a "virginal girl next door, or a crazy up against the wall, let's have it on right here" romances? Without that in games, it might as well be Elder Scrolls where the romance there focuses on some form of cheap wish fulfillment and power fantasy rather than have thematic relevance or integration into the main narrative. That's just poor writing and BioWare would never lower themselves to that, or have a fanbase that laps it up under the delusion of "deep storytelling" or "player choice". Bethesda should be ashamed of themselves.

Having them conform to the sexuality of the player's self-insert is simply maximising emotional engagement, whereas arbitrary ratios on sexuality is exactly that, arbitrary.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 20 mars 2013 - 08:06 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Khayness wrote...
Or a gritty realistic military twitch shooter with romance options?!
EA mah boi, this one is free.

You just got John Riccitello's job. Congratulations. Now you just need to learn how to microtransaction the romances correctly. $15 romance packs are the future!

[TheBlackBaron]

Personally I think Bioware ought to consider taking a step back on the romances, perhaps having a low-key implementation such as Obsidian has done in some of its games (see: Alpha Protocol, do not see: KotOR II, in which they were barely existent).

Doing away with them entirely would probably lead to reduction in sales of 50%.

Crusty's also got a good suggestion. Part of the reason the Bastila romance (and I guess Carth ... not really) is so fondly remembered is because of how tightly integrated it is in KotOR's main narrative. It might seem strange to remember a time when you had only -one- romantic interest in a Bioware game, and I can hardly imagine what the reaction to it would be today, but for good while that was pretty much the gold standard. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 20 mars 2013 - 08:24 .

[wright1978]

I was happy with sexuality of LI being playthrough specific as in DA2. Seems the sensible way to give a sufficient level of choice in a world of limited resources.

[Fidget6]

Filament wrote...

It would only seem to need special dialogue if you assume Thedans operate under a heteronormative mindset.

This. No one is complaining that the straight Mass Effect characters don't mention their sexuality other than when they're romanced by Shep.

[HolyAvenger]

Fidget6 wrote...

Filament wrote...

It would only seem to need special dialogue if you assume Thedans operate under a heteronormative mindset.

This. No one is complaining that the straight Mass Effect characters don't mention their sexuality other than when they're romanced by Shep.

 

They do, though?

Jacob and Miranda are exes, Garrus has his story with the female turian scout, Thane and his wife etc.