596 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtElias]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

There's all sorts of baggage attached to identifying as bisexual.  People assume you're promiscuous, that you're incapable of fidelity, plenty of stereotypes that are just easier to avoid by going with a different identity.

Not that this is particularly relevant to the thread, but this has been my experience, as well. Every time, without fail, that it has come up, and I've admitted "both my husband and I are bisexual," the immediate reaction, every time, even from friends and family, has been to translate that statement into, "We have orgies in our house every night, which we expose our children to, are in a completely non-monogomous relationship, and pick up strangers on the bus for the lulz."

No, I'm not exaggerating. It would be frustrating if it wasn't so funny.

Anyway, I have no problem with every character being bisexual, or player-sexual, for that matter; what I'd like to see are more characters that are bisexual deviating from the Isabela mold. Not that I don't like Isabela (I do), and not that I'm trying to imply that every bisexual character EVAR has been like this. But it's a fairly common sterotype, so I enjoy when characters don't fall into it. 

Modifié par SgtElias, 20 mars 2013 - 02:49 .

[SgtElias]

Plaintiff wrote...

Absolutely. Everyone knows homosexuals use projectile vomit as a defense mechanism, much in the same manner as squid ink.

Why, I throw up on a woman if she so much as makes eye contact. Your avatar is causing me to vomit furiously even as I type this.

So much has become clear to me. Several interactions that really confused me at the time have been put in context. 

I thank you, ser.

Modifié par SgtElias, 20 mars 2013 - 02:57 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

@plantiff

it's not the point that the media has sidelined it, ( straight relationships ) they are trying to be more accepting

[David Gaider]

I'll just quote the last time I addressed this topic, on my blog. It addresses more than the OP was aiming for, but I imagine-- without reading this thread-- that the posts which followed have already run the usual gamut of opinions anyhow.

Quite frequently on our forums someone will come along with a rant on how they hated how "all the followers in DA2 were bisexual". Sometimes you'll even get someone who counters that by saying, no, they weren't bisexual... the same-gender romance options were gay and the opposite-gender romance options were straight, depending on your player character. Most of the ire seems to center on the fact that Anders not only flirts with you if you pick the nice response options after his plot (how ghastly of him) but that the only way to turn him down is perceived as being harsh... which I don't really think it is, but the bigger crime is evidently that he doesn't like it and you get 10 whole Rivalry points for doing so. This is, as near as I can tell, the equivalent of kicking him in the head (despite the fact that you can get Anders to max Friendship in Act 1 alone about twice over, if you're keen to) and thus inexcusable.

Now, there are three things about this that bother me.

One, the double standard. I suppose in the future we should just suck up the fact that men hitting on men causes a lot more squick than women hitting on women... because nobody brings up Isabela hitting on female players without being flirted with first, only Anders. And those are the only two romance characters who do it. We talked about it and thought, "Why not? Seems fair." The reactions have sometimes been pretty funny, but overall probably not worth the trouble.

Two, that the perception of sexuality evidently dictates the reality. If a male character comments that a woman is attractive, for instance, he must immediately say that he also finds men attractive or he is Straight Forever and any future attraction to men is a ret-con of his character. He has become someone else completely, like he's had a personality transplant. Indeed, some of the comments make me wonder if this is how these people would respond to the same situation in real life... some friend of theirs who they always thought was straight tells them they slept with someone of the same gender and they go, "What? You're like some completely different person! How can you be both straight and gay, it makes no sense!" Probably.

Which leads me to my third thing: while I get that some people might not like the discovery that those followers can potentially romance either gender (something you can really only discover on subsequent playthroughs or by reading about it), a lot of the things people post on the subject is... awkward. "It makes the characters inconsistent." Meaning that... bisexuality itself is indicative of inconsistency? Only people who can't make up their minds are bisexual? "It's unrealistic that everyone is bisexual!" Which 'everyone'? Everyone in Thedas? Or are
we talking four people in your party of folks who already exceptional in a large number of ways, two of which have no sexual past or preferences that they even discuss with you? "It just made them seem like they were all sexually available to me!" So... was it having three romance options for any PC gender, just like in Origins, that threw you off? Or does the idea of potentially sleeping with either gender just make them seem inherently wanton to you?

I mean, come on. I'm sure not everyone actually feels this way, or means to sound as if they do, but much of the commentary on the topic seems to say way more about the commenter than the topic.

While some people evidently didn't like having their perceptions played with, it was indeed just their perception. We wrote the characters the exact same way, all that changed was what you were exposed to. Even, yes, Anders. He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening. I remember the conversation when I first saw Anders' planned appearance in the expansion.

"Huh. He looks a little gay."

"I don't think you can use that as an adjective."

"I can if I mean homosexual."

"Really? Is it the hair? The earring?"

"I'm not sure, but he pings like an aircraft carrier."

We laughed about it, and while it didn't really matter for Awakening since there were no romance plots there anyhow it was definitely on my mind when I wrote him. I found it a little odd when people suggested that him
commenting on women but not men meant he was straight. Which is fine, perception being what it is, but it certainly wasn't avoided. It wasn't like it was anywhere but my head, anyhow. But that's why I didn't consider it a big deal when it came up as a possibility for DA2. As far as I was concerned, nothing about that side of him had even been established.

And, yes, authorial intention doesn't count for much. People perceive what they will, and perhaps we should have gone further to establish that part of those characters more explicitly. I'm just not sure what lengths I'd want to go to just to make some people more comfortable with the idea... because, as I suggested above, I'm not sure all the reasons they're expressing for that discomfort are actually genuine.

Personally, were we given the resources to have enough romances that we could have an even spread of sexualities across the party I'd be more than happy to have those sexualities be explicit... but if the idea otherwise is to restrict those interested in gay romances from having the same number of options as others, then no. Fairness and fun gameplay win out.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 mars 2013 - 03:07 .

[HolyAvenger]

I will admit I do like it when certain romances aren't available to players because of gender though, or heck even for other reasons. Works both ways of course (Sebastian, Samara in ME2, Traynor, Juhani etc). Rejection adds a nice touch of realism/immersion.

[InfinitePaths]

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...

[quote]Fiacre wrote...

[quote]Pcmag1 wrote...

 In 2007, an article in the 'Health' section of The New York Times[/i] stated that "1.5 percent of American women and 1.7 percent of American men identify themselves [as] bisexual."
Chance of 5/8 + 6/8 (We are not sure about Bethany/Carver, Varic, Sebastian and Aveline seems to be hetero) characters being bisexual is according to theory of Binominal distribution 5.64x10^-8 (0.00000564%). 

But for once, I really didnt mind. Perhaps PC is jsut so damn sexually atractive he can "turn" you just by smiling at you. 

[/quote]

I might not be American, but I can only repeat what I said in a topic dedicated to this: There were four other students I consider myself to have had extensive contact with during the last semester -- one whose sexuality I don't know, one who identifies as heterosexual, two who identify as bisexual, and then there's me who identifies as pan. Meaning, at least three out of five who are attracted to more than one gender. Hawke having (at least) four bisexual friends seems perfectly plausible.

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...

It is suggested that Isabela has a more emotional bond to females.

If
you go through MOtA with her romanced with both genders, when you are
about to exit the caves and have to decide on helping Tallis or not you
can flirt with her.
Isabela's female response: Linky
Male response: Linky[/quote]

Oh, that's very interesting. Thanks for the links

[/quote]
This has nothing to do with gender,only with if you finished act III quest and said that you are falling for her.

[Plaintiff]

SgtElias wrote...
We have orgies in our house every night, which we expose our children to, are in a completely non-monogomous relationship, and pick up strangers on the bus for the lulz.

Sweet. And your address?

[Dirgegun]

David Gaider wrote...

I'll just quote the last time I addressed this topic, on my blog. It addresses more than the OP was aiming for, but I imagine-- without reading this thread-- that the posts which followed have already run the usual gamut of opinions anyhow.

*reluctant snip for length*

So, so, so much this!

[InfinitePaths]

David Gaider wrote...

I'll just quote the last time I addressed this topic, on my blog. It addresses more than the OP was aiming for, but I imagine-- without reading this thread-- that the posts which followed have already run the usual gamut of opinions anyhow.

Quite frequently on our forums someone will come along with a rant on how they hated how "all the followers in DA2 were bisexual". Sometimes you'll even get someone who counters that by saying, no, they weren't bisexual... the same-gender romance options were gay and the opposite-gender romance options were straight, depending on your player character. Most of the ire seems to center on the fact that Anders not only flirts with you if you pick the nice response options after his plot (how ghastly of him) but that the only way to turn him down is perceived as being harsh... which I don't really think it is, but the bigger crime is evidently that he doesn't like it and you get 10 whole Rivalry points for doing so. This is, as near as I can tell, the equivalent of kicking him in the head (despite the fact that you can get Anders to max Friendship in Act 1 alone about twice over, if you're keen to) and thus inexcusable.

Now, there are three things about this that bother me.

One, the double standard. I suppose in the future we should just suck up the fact that men hitting on men causes a lot more squick than women hitting on women... because nobody brings up Isabela hitting on female players without being flirted with first, only Anders. And those are the only two romance characters who do it. We talked about it and thought, "Why not? Seems fair." The reactions have sometimes been pretty funny, but overall probably not worth the trouble.

Two, that the perception of sexuality evidently dictates the reality. If a male character comments that a woman is attractive, for instance, he must immediately say that he also finds men attractive or he is Straight Forever and any future attraction to men is a ret-con of his character. He has become someone else completely, like he's had a personality transplant. Indeed, some of the comments make me wonder if this is how these people would respond to the same situation in real life... some friend of theirs who they always thought was straight tells them they slept with someone of the same gender and they go, "What? You're like some completely different person! How can you be both straight and gay, it makes no sense!" Probably.

Which leads me to my third thing: while I get that some people might not like the discovery that those followers can potentially romance either gender (something you can really only discover on subsequent playthroughs or by reading about it), a lot of the things people post on the subject is... awkward. "It makes the characters inconsistent." Meaning that... bisexuality itself is indicative of inconsistency? Only people who can't make up their minds are bisexual? "It's unrealistic that everyone is bisexual!" Which 'everyone'? Everyone in Thedas? Or are
we talking four people in your party of folks who already exceptional in a large number of ways, two of which have no sexual past or preferences that they even discuss with you? "It just made them seem like they were all sexually available to me!" So... was it having three romance options for any PC gender, just like in Origins, that threw you off? Or does the idea of potentially sleeping with either gender just make them seem inherently wanton to you?

I mean, come on. I'm sure not everyone actually feels this way, or means to sound as if they do, but much of the commentary on the topic seems to say way more about the commenter than the topic.

While some people evidently didn't like having their perceptions played with, it was indeed just their perception. We wrote the characters the exact same way, all that changed was what you were exposed to. Even, yes, Anders. He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening. I remember the conversation when I first saw Anders' planned appearance in the expansion.

"Huh. He looks a little gay."

"I don't think you can use that as an adjective."

"I can if I mean homosexual."

"Really? Is it the hair? The earring?"

"I'm not sure, but he pings like an aircraft carrier."

We laughed about it, and while it didn't really matter for Awakening since there were no romance plots there anyhow it was definitely on my mind when I wrote him. I found it a little odd when people suggested that him
commenting on women but not men meant he was straight. Which is fine, perception being what it is, but it certainly wasn't avoided. It wasn't like it was anywhere but my head, anyhow. But that's why I didn't consider it a big deal when it came up as a possibility for DA2. As far as I was concerned, nothing about that side of him had even been established.

And, yes, authorial intention doesn't count for much. People perceive what they will, and perhaps we should have gone further to establish that part of those characters more explicitly. I'm just not sure what lengths I'd want to go to just to make some people more comfortable with the idea... because, as I suggested above, I'm not sure all the reasons they're expressing for that discomfort are actually genuine.

Personally, were we given the resources to have enough romances that we could have an even spread of sexualities across the party I'd be more than happy to have those sexualities be explicit... but if the idea otherwise is to restrict those interested in gay romances from having the same number of options as others, then no. Fairness and fun gameplay win out.

The thing is I was not saying stuff agains bisexuallity,I am against playersexuallity

[Sir George Parr]

This topic is the gift that keeps on giving. I find it weird that Merrill and Fenris need to give some indication that there sexuality is bi, it would be unrealistic. Not everyone will discuss such matters with others. There is no need for all companions to express it as it would make for a very boring game if all the companions were unabashedly bisexual like Isabela and Zevran.

[David Gaider]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...
The thing is I was not saying stuff agains bisexuallity,I am against playersexuallity

They are not 'playersexual'. Perhaps read it again.

[Volus Warlord]

Also, for the sake of fun and fair gameplay, I would like to be ability to chose whether my characters are shy or bold, support Mages, Templars, or neutral, their origin, and who kills them and when. 

[Plaintiff]

Volus Warlord wrote...



Also, for the sake of fun and fair gameplay, I would like to be ability to chose whether my characters are shy or bold, support Mages, Templars, or neutral, their origin, and who kills them and when. 

As long as their preference for Coke or Pepsi remains immutable.

[InfinitePaths]

David Gaider wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...
The thing is I was not saying stuff agains bisexuallity,I am against playersexuallity

They are not 'playersexual'. Perhaps read it again.

I have,english is not my native language so i could not find a answer in your post which i have read on your post long ago btw,anyways I didn't find an answer why don't Merill and Fenris show any indication of their bisexuality when they are not romancing the protag and show that they like the opposite sex(Fenris with Isabella,Merill with Carver).

[Volus Warlord]

Plaintiff wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...



Also, for the sake of fun and fair gameplay, I would like to be ability to chose whether my characters are shy or bold, support Mages, Templars, or neutral, their origin, and who kills them and when. 

As long as their preference for Coke or Pepsi remains immutable.

Well, that would destroy their character.

[The Hierophant]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I`d like a mix of gays, straights and bis. Player sexuality, however, is pretty damn immersion breaking.

Except there is no way for you to tell if a character is bisexual or playersexual unless said character comes up to you and says,  "Hi my name is ___ and I'm bisexual!!!!" 
How is that any less immersion breaking. Do people actually announce their sexualities to one another when they first meet?

After playing Fallout New Vegas i don't think so. The subject of Arcade Gannon's, and Veronica Santangelo's sexuality comes up after the player earns their trust, which afterwards might show up in dialogue about their lives depending on the player's choice in questions, while Veronica flatout tells the player as it ties in to her issues with her family (BoS), or if a male pc flirts with her. The subject shows up in Boone's strained friendship with Manny as the latter is jealous of the former's wife, and is glad she's dead. It seems that the subject matter of how a character's sexuality is presented depends on the writer's priorities (time), and agenda.

My only issues with DA's li at this point is that the pc's personality, stance on issues, and actions rarely impact the relationship, or affect their ability to start one with a companion. It would be interesing to see a system where the player's past, and future actions/dialogue choices leads to differing dialogue from an li leading to changes in the nature/tone of the relationship. Heck it would be lulzly if hair/eye color, scars, eyebrow, nose, and mouth shapes also tally up with the previously mentioned to make up an individual companion's preference.

Unfortunately i don't see this happening as it requires the team to put more effort into the romances, while trying to balance it out with other aspects of the game like the MQ storyline & dialogue, level design, gameplay, etc. Meh, i think i'd rather the team focus on the MQ storyline, dialogue, secondary characters, level design, and combat while keeping the romances minimal.

[historybrat]

XM-417 wrote...

This topic is the gift that keeps on giving. I find it weird that Merrill and Fenris need to give some indication that there sexuality is bi, it would be unrealistic. Not everyone will discuss such matters with others. There is no need for all companions to express it as it would make for a very boring game if all the companions were unabashedly bisexual like Isabela and Zevran.

Exactly. This plus what David Gaider posted. Not everyone wears their sexuality openly. Some people are a bit more reserved than other people. I would also point out that bisexuality does not have to mean that someone is equally attracted to both/all genders. Many people who identify as bisexual are equally attracted to all genders and many others are primarily attracted to one gender, but can be attracted to the other gender. Bisexuality is more of a continunm of sexuality than an exact point.

[SgtElias]

Plaintiff wrote...

SgtElias wrote...
We have orgies in our house every night, which we expose our children to, are in a completely non-monogomous relationship, and pick up strangers on the bus for the lulz.

Sweet. And your address?

Come on over! I'll make sure to have my husband answer the door, though; wouldn't want to make eye-contact. Causing your guests to projectile vomit is usually considered rude.

[Knight of Dane]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

Pcmag1 wrote...

 In 2007, an article in the 'Health' section of The New York Times[/i] stated that "1.5 percent of American women and 1.7 percent of American men identify themselves [as] bisexual."
Chance of 5/8 + 6/8 (We are not sure about Bethany/Carver, Varic, Sebastian and Aveline seems to be hetero) characters being bisexual is according to theory of Binominal distribution 5.64x10^-8 (0.00000564%). 

But for once, I really didnt mind. Perhaps PC is jsut so damn sexually atractive he can "turn" you just by smiling at you. 

I might not be American, but I can only repeat what I said in a topic dedicated to this: There were four other students I consider myself to have had extensive contact with during the last semester -- one whose sexuality I don't know, one who identifies as heterosexual, two who identify as bisexual, and then there's me who identifies as pan. Meaning, at least three out of five who are attracted to more than one gender. Hawke having (at least) four bisexual friends seems perfectly plausible.

Knight of Dane wrote...

It is suggested that Isabela has a more emotional bond to females.

If
you go through MOtA with her romanced with both genders, when you are
about to exit the caves and have to decide on helping Tallis or not you
can flirt with her.
Isabela's female response: Linky
Male response: Linky

Oh, that's very interesting. Thanks for the links

This has nothing to do with gender,only with if you finished act III quest and said that you are falling for her.

Must be me doing something wrong then, she always tells Tallis the same thing for my Male Hawke after that.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 20 mars 2013 - 03:38 .

[The Elder King]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...


I have,english is not my native language so i could not find a answer in your post which i have read on your post long ago btw,anyways I didn't find an answer why don't Merill and Fenris show any indication of their bisexuality when they are not romancing the protag and show that they like the opposite sex(Fenris with Isabella,Merill with Carver).

Again, Merril didn't show any signs of being attracted to Carver. In every panty banter between them in the vanilla game and Legacy, Meriil didn't understand that Carver is asking her out. In MOTA she feigned ignorance, and Carver understand she's doing this on purpose, but that doesn't mean that she's attracted.
In almost every other banters, she said that she's missing something, meaning that she didn't understand what Carver wanted to say. She shown no sign of attraction. It's Carver that it's clearly attracted by Merrill.
Check it out the DA wiki with all the dialogue, and point me at which dialogue you believe Merrill shown some signs of attraction toward Carver.

http://dragonage.wik...errill/Dialogue


As for Merrill and Fenris not showing to be attracted to people of the same gender, it's the same case of Anders showing interest in females and not males in DAA. Gaider said that he always thought of Anders as being bisexual. The same could be said for Fenris and Merrill.
And by the way, Fenris, before he lost his memories, has a sexual relationship with his master, Danarius (hinted in DA2, confirmed by some developers, I think Gaider). Of course it doesn't mean much since it could be forced, and slaves often had to serve their master sexually no matter their orientation,  but since the game didn't explain it clearly, and I don't remember if the devs said how Fenris felt, it up to your interpretation.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 mars 2013 - 03:45 .

[Harle Cerulean]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...
The thing is I was not saying stuff agains bisexuallity,I am against playersexuallity

They are not 'playersexual'. Perhaps read it again.

I have,english is not my native language so i could not find a answer in your post which i have read on your post long ago btw,anyways I didn't find an answer why don't Merill and Fenris show any indication of their bisexuality when they are not romancing the protag and show that they like the opposite sex(Fenris with Isabella,Merill with Carver).

Why should they have to?  Neither one are promiscuous characters.  If Isabela is romanced by Hawke, Fenris doesn't develop a relationship with anyone, but that doesn't mean he's asexual in a playthrough where Hawke romances Isabela.  It just means there's no one available that he's interested in.  You seem to be operating under a false assumption that for someone to be bi, they have to show attraction to both men and women simultaniously.  They don't.

Now, I will say that I would like for more same-sex attraction between NPCs to be shown.  It's true that the LIs (or other companions) don't really show same-sex interest except to the PC, which does feel unfortunately heteronormative.  But it's not required to show interest in both sexes for them to be bisexual, and it's not unrealistic to have bisexual characters who aren't explicitly going on about how much they want to do men and women.

[nightscrawl]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

 It is so wierd that in DA2 Merill and Fenris showed no real indication that their sexuality is bisexual if they did not romance Hawke.It is so weird that Merill only has a sexual interest in female hawke and no other female charather in the enitre game.if you are going to make all companions have a bisexual sexuallity make them express it,their sexuallity is a part of their personallity.Also I think only Isabella had special dialouge with Fem Hawke,saying stuff like girly fun etc... plus she already said that she is BI,this makes her relationship with a femHawke seem real,consistent and just great.Merill treats Fem Hawke like male Hawke,she also never said that she has an interest in girls,making it so strange and doesn't feel right.

Just because neither of them express interest in others doesn't mean they have no interest. They simply keep it to themselves. I really have no problem with that. Different people express their preference in different ways, or perhaps not at all. I have no problem with looking at an attractive man on TV and proclaiming that he "is hot." I do the same with women, although I am straight.

Merrill and Fenris require Hawke to be more obvious with her/his intention, whereas Anders and Isabela have no problem with making suggestive or flirty remarks to varying degrees. I actually think it's more "realistic" that you have different companions who act in different ways regarding their sexuality than to have them all act in the same way.

And you know, there are people who are so focused on their daily lives that they don't really think about sex or romances, until the right person comes along. People are busy, people have crap to do. Some people consider this a personal issue and don't discuss it with anyone. Everyone is different.

I honestly don't see why this is such a big deal. Most of the angst about this subject comes from meta knowledge anyway.

[Brockololly]

[quote]David Gaider wrote...
Personally, were we given the resources to have enough romances that we could have an even spread of sexualities across the party I'd be more than happy to have those sexualities be explicit... but if the idea otherwise is to restrict those interested in gay romances from having the same number of options as others, then no. Fairness and fun gameplay win out.[/quote]
[/quote]

On this point, I've seen you bring this up quite a bit lately when this topic has arisen.

My question is: why now? For instance, would you do Origins romances the same way if you were to make the game right now? Since Origins had 2 bisexual characters and 2 heterosexual characters but no  explicitly homosexual characters? Would that be a non starter since you  wouldn't have an equal representation of homosexual options?

Or  would the Dragon Age team consider doing something like you had with  Mass Effect 3 where you had Cortez and Traynor as homosexual options  that were explicitly homosexual (turning down a Shep of the opposite  sex)? Or even keeping explicitly heterosexual options in a similar role?


I suppose I would just want to see romances and any other sorts of character  relationships factor more into the plot and offer more reactivity to the player character. And I would imagine  having a more defined and uniquely  written companion/NPC would make for a better sounding board for the  player character. Like Samara shutting down Shepard in ME2 due to her Code; or Aveline shutting down the player in DA2 due to being aloof and interested in the Captain guy; or Alistair being a straight virgin and subsequently having characters like Morrigan and Oghren tease him about his sexuality; or somebody like Leliana being bisexual enriching her past as a bard in Orlais; or back in BG2, having a kid with Aerie and so on. I just want more content that doesn't feel one sized fits all, which is how I felt with the DA2 romances.

I guess I'd just like more reactivity overall from the companions and NPC's, whether that's them commenting on my PC's specialization (Morrigan hating a Templar for instance) or commenting on your appearance (maybe Alistair has a thing for red heads!) or a companion shutting you down romantically because they just don't swing that way.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 mars 2013 - 03:49 .