225 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkSpiral]

[quote]Steelcan wrote...

[/quote]. How would synthesis affect plants....... It'd be the end of vegetarianism.  And the end of eating meat....  We'd all starve.
[/quote]

That's defeatist talk, sir.  Obviously we would get fuel from ambient energy now, rather than need to break down matter into chemical energy. 

[DarkSpiral]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Doesn't that just lend strentgh the to idea of the Synthesis placing orgainic life (not just a single species) completely outside of it?

. I'm sorry but I don't think plants need to be outside of natural evolution.

They are not. That's why I said sapient beings. Only a sapient being can benefit from Synthesis. A sapient being has to actually integrate with technology and control the results. A synthesized plant is still just a normal plant.

In a more serious vein than my last post, I'm invlined to agree with this.  Potential for something is not actualizing that potential.

Although...I suppose it does mean sapient life could, theoretically, interfact with plant life.  That's all guesswork, of course.We really don't know what happens after Synthesis, other than that Bioware pushed as the happiest ending.

[Phatose]

Wonder if this means your immune system no longer kills bacteria, but politely asks them to leave.

[o Ventus]

Synthesis affects plants like it affects every other organic. You can see the weird circuitry patterns in plants post-Synthesis, only they glow slightly blue instead of green.

By releasing a wave of magic energy that instantaneously changes every molecule of DNA in the body to have tiny cybernetic... things, regardless of physiological or psychological differences inherently present in each and every species. On top of this, it grants synthetics the ability to "understand" organics (but never explaining what the hell that actually means).

It makes perfect sense.

Modifié par o Ventus, 20 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Doesn't that just lend strentgh the to idea of the Synthesis placing orgainic life (not just a single species) completely outside of it?

. I'm sorry but I don't think plants need to be outside of natural evolution.

They are not. That's why I said sapient beings. Only a sapient being can benefit from Synthesis. A sapient being has to actually integrate with technology and control the results. A synthesized plant is still just a normal plant.

. But is it?  It could be the start of the plant rebellions!  They will rise up and wreak a revenge upon our plant eating ways.   Repent!  Repent!  Eat meat only!

[ruggly]

Phatose wrote...

Wonder if this means your immune system no longer kills bacteria, but politely asks them to leave.

white blood cell: Hey hey hey hey hey. No. Out.
flu: ok.jpg

[Steelcan]

In a much more serious vein. Synthesis is invalid because it is forcing a conclusion on all organic life that may or not be correct. I like the end result of it the advancement theme is pretty nice.m but I cannot stand how it is, presented, explained, executed, narrated, and just about everything else about it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Why I don't like synthesis and think it's terrible:
http://social.biowar...9404/4#16076107

[OdanUrr]

@OP:

Nice presentation. Permit me, however, to point out a few flaws. On the one hand, you say civilizations are kept on a leash technologically because they're using technology seeded by the Reapers. Thus, any advancements made will develop along paths that either the Catalyst or the Reapers have foreseen. Sovereign tells you as much during the encounter on Virmire and Legion reinforces this in your chats with him aboard the Normandy in ME2. 

On the other hand, you present the Crucible as a weapon that not only stands apart from the cycle but from the Reapers' projected technological advancement paths. Is this not a paradox? If civilizations cannot develop their own technological breakthroughs, independent of Reaper technology, how can they continuously add to and improve the Crucible? In fact, shouldn't it have been near impossible for Shepard's cycle to even build the Crucible?

Consider, the Crucible proposes a solution (Synthesis) that the Catalyst had not been able to reproduce despite its access to technology (the Leviathans') vastly superior to our own and to (probably) most civilizations prior. If each succeeding cycle's technological zenith is a diminished copy of the previous one, how is it possible that they can achieve something that outstrips the Catalyst's knowledge base? This is not like Hawking's "On The Shoulders Of Giants" since the Reapers leave no shoulders and certainly no giants for the next cycle to work with.

My conclusion is that the concept behind the Crucible, at least in so far as Synthesis is concerned, must have been developed by a civilization close in time to that of the Leviathans', probably even before the age of the Citadel and the mass relays (it could explain why the Reapers decided to seed their technology). Of course, this begs the question of why exactly would such a civilization, faced with the prospect of annihilation at the hands of the Reapers, build a weapon that "creates new DNA" (I hate myself for even quoting that) instead of one that simply destroys them. Something to ponder certainly.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 20 mars 2013 - 01:44 .

[Eshaye]

Wonderful post OP, Thanks for pointing out what the crucible is supposed to be, I really wish there had been more development about that at the end of ME2 to tie with ME3 or introduced better in ME3, the whole thing just seemed to come out of left field and a convenient way to end the series.

Also thanks for that Mordin quote, we've seen what happened to the Krogan when organics are given too much power too soon, and also what happens to the Geth when synthetics are given conscience also too soon. The idea that merging them together solves every problem is bound to create an even greater one.

If everything including plants and anything with dna is now partially synthetic and it's all transcended life, then there is no point to life anymore. Congratulations you've just killed any reason for anyone to BE. What would happen then? It's just as bad as everyone being reduced to mush and uploaded to a giant squid ship.

Maybe I lack imagination but I do not find synthesis to be a viable alternative to destroy. I find control more appealing even though there's no way that's going to last.

[Argolas]

OdanUrr wrote...

@OP:

Nice presentation. Permit me, however, to point out a few flaws. On the one hand, you say civilizations are kept on a leash technologically because they're using technology seeded by the Reapers. Thus, any advancements made will develop along paths that either the Catalyst or the Reapers have foreseen. Sovereign tells you as much during the encounter on Virmire and Legion reinforces this in your chats with him aboard the Normandy in ME2. 

On the other hand, you present the Crucible as a weapon that not only stands apart from the cycle but from the Reapers' projected technological advancement paths. Is this not a paradox? If civilizations cannot develop their own technological breakthroughs, independent of Reaper technology, how can they continuously add to and improve the Crucible? In fact, shouldn't it have been near impossible for Shepard's cycle to even build the Crucible?

The crucible is the one and only (relevant) technology that is made by people who are aware of the reapers, and it is even meant to tackle the Reapers directly. Plus, every cycle can add its pieces to it because it is passed on. The critical point is that this technology continiously adapts to the Reapers, that is something that no other tech can do since most relevant technology is based on what the Reapers left behind. In other words: No one ever cared to think outside the box, now they are forced to (keyword: limitations). That is how the crucible was created, and that is also how the only other tech we know of that ever hurt the Reapers badly was created: The conduit and the anti-Keeper-virus the Protheans made on Ilos. None of both could have been made without being aware of the Reapers.

OdanUrr wrote...

Consider, the Crucible proposes a solution (Synthesis) that the Catalyst had not been able to reproduce despite its access to technology (the Leviathans') vastly superior to our own and to (probably) most civilizations prior. If each succeeding cycle's technological zenith is a diminished copy of the previous one, how is it possible that they can achieve something that outstrips the Catalyst's knowledge base? This is not like Hawking's "On The Shoulders Of Giants" since the Reapers leave no shoulders and certainly no giants for the next cycle to work with.

The technology for the Synthesis solution is a different matter. The only technolgy that we have to beat is the cycle, and to beat the cycle the Reapers must be removed. That is what the crucible does.

OdanUrr wrote...

My conclusion is that the concept behind the Crucible, at least in so far as Synthesis is concerned, must have been developed by a civilization close in time to that of the Leviathans', probably even before the age of the Citadel and the mass relays (it could explain why the Reapers decided to seed their technology). Of course, this begs the question of why exactly would such a civilization, faced with the prospect of annihilation at the hands of the Reapers, build a weapon that "creates new DNA" (I hate myself for even quoting that) instead of one that simply destroys them. Something to ponder certainly.

I rather think that Synthesis was prepared by the Catalyst over several cycles. It claims that it learned about the Crucible a few cycles ago, so it would make sense that this is the moment it realizes that the cycle may fail. It would also explain two other points: Synthesis uses the crucible, and the collectors did genetic research, it would mean they were checking if this cycle was ready for Synthesis (the Catalyst claims that former cycle's were not).

[CosmicGnosis]

Eshaye wrote...

If everything including plants and anything with dna is now partially synthetic and it's all transcended life, then there is no point to life anymore. Congratulations you've just killed any reason for anyone to BE. What would happen then? It's just as bad as everyone being reduced to mush and uploaded to a giant squid ship.

What are you talking about? How does Synthesis render life meaningless? How does recovering the greatness that was lost, and ultimately surpassing it, lead to a meaningless existence?

It's unfortunate that BioWare has turned off everyone to any prospect of ascension.

[Phatose]

Eshaye wrote...

Wonderful post OP, Thanks for pointing out what the crucible is supposed to be, I really wish there had been more development about that at the end of ME2 to tie with ME3 or introduced better in ME3, the whole thing just seemed to come out of left field and a convenient way to end the series.

Also thanks for that Mordin quote, we've seen what happened to the Krogan when organics are given too much power too soon, and also what happens to the Geth when synthetics are given conscience also too soon. The idea that merging them together solves every problem is bound to create an even greater one.

If everything including plants and anything with dna is now partially synthetic and it's all transcended life, then there is no point to life anymore. Congratulations you've just killed any reason for anyone to BE. What would happen then? It's just as bad as everyone being reduced to mush and uploaded to a giant squid ship.

Maybe I lack imagination but I do not find synthesis to be a viable alternative to destroy. I find control more appealing even though there's no way that's going to last.

Er....what exactly is the point to life before synthesis?  As far as I'm aware, the only answer that one has ever gotten was 42.

[Wayning_Star]

well Arg, it's a neat appearing hypo, but you've forgotten that we don't know anything about synthesis, barely know what it is, or what exactly it does. Another point being that the issue isn't about circles, but ripples, as society, new tech(even that not known by the catalyst) as well as nature altering the course of catalyst history. The MEU is just too big to say a word like 'stagnation' just because the crucible is attaining the attention of some robot built by Leviathan, who were unable to figure out handily, chaos as It is ultimately nature it's self.

The tumultuous nature of existence will eventually bid farewell to any changes incurred by beings/intellect, just as it guides the rules for those changes. That's where the idea of synthesis comes from, the energetic version of 'the first tool' ever created by intellect and just how far and how big that intelligence will go to survive. All natural acts of nature, as posed by intellect as it interacts/controls/confronts mother nature to exist.

Otherwise, you'd have no computer to model your interesting, but inadequate representation of 'the cycle'. A circle doesn't represent the cycle. Build UP and then tear DOWN does....that's what got the Leviathan all upset and figuratively forced them to 'create' the intelligence as a thing of need. Just like any other intellect building their first tool set. The catalyst was/is just attempting to find the center of the MEU as how it relates and circles around. Existence through evolution isn't static, so the catalyst merely locked the MEU into that form of cycle you provide. The crucible is a kind of pressure valve, a release of the energy created from that interference with natures natural order, or evolution to taylor organics, because they invented the catalyst/synthetic "intellect" and thus an intelligence that "became" the catalyst for change from chaos(nature). It's all it could think of, considering it's founders, Leviathan created it, as did their thralls create synthetic life forms, that ended in more chaos, as they wipe out their creators.(cycle of build and destroy). A wave form. The catalyst for change stops all that up'n down stuff with it's circling the problem/on hold/hibernate..etc. Starting with Leviathan.

Synthesis isn't the cats idea, as it's more of the same with a notable difference in altering the nature of evolution, that includes new to the universe, synthetic life forms. A common goal.

The only real way out of synthesis with synthetic life forms is to eradicate their entire being. Sad really,as that IS the basis for chaos as discovered by the catalyst observations over billions of years,eventhough it never thought of synthesis, nature does that stuff, with their invention, through organic evolution "including" them in the equation of the MEU reality.

Probably why I often wonder where are those that designed the crucible and the author of the choices menu. They seemed really tuned into the whole. Presently, all we did was assemble it and charge it up. All the stuff to actually improve it were left just lying around the MEU to find.

[NT121784]

I think synthesis is just too weird anymore to even consider. Destroy is straight to the point, though still a few draw backs. And screw control. Its a trick.

[Wayning_Star]

NT121784 wrote...

I think synthesis is just too weird anymore to even consider. Destroy is straight to the point, though still a few draw backs. And screw control. Its a trick.

I thought it kind of funny that a military of the future only approached the crucible as some sort of weapon. Not having a first clue as to it's function or purpose. Only that it had that 'big bang' appeal.

Then, in the endgame, the catalyst boss figures it to be just a crude power supply, that gave it new avenues to consider the 'choices', as if they were acceptable regardless of their outcome.

The MEU ends up a top spinning out of control but endangered of being destroyed by those who just want to get along? Why would the catalyst wish to preserve life as reapers? It'd be easier just wipe one or the other out and get on with existence?

funny that..

[Vigilant111]

Wayning_Star wrote...

NT121784 wrote...

I think synthesis is just too weird anymore to even consider. Destroy is straight to the point, though still a few draw backs. And screw control. Its a trick.

I thought it kind of funny that a military of the future only approached the crucible as some sort of weapon. Not having a first clue as to it's function or purpose. Only that it had that 'big bang' appeal.

Then, in the endgame, the catalyst boss figures it to be just a crude power supply, that gave it new avenues to consider the 'choices', as if they were acceptable regardless of their outcome.

The MEU ends up a top spinning out of control but endangered of being destroyed by those who just want to get along? Why would the catalyst wish to preserve life as reapers? It'd be easier just wipe one or the other out and get on with existence?

funny that..

Umm, because if people knew what the functions were beforehand, there would had been a political s**tstorm, and the construction of the Crucible may had been delayed

[Wayning_Star]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

NT121784 wrote...

I think synthesis is just too weird anymore to even consider. Destroy is straight to the point, though still a few draw backs. And screw control. Its a trick.

I thought it kind of funny that a military of the future only approached the crucible as some sort of weapon. Not having a first clue as to it's function or purpose. Only that it had that 'big bang' appeal.

Then, in the endgame, the catalyst boss figures it to be just a crude power supply, that gave it new avenues to consider the 'choices', as if they were acceptable regardless of their outcome.

The MEU ends up a top spinning out of control but endangered of being destroyed by those who just want to get along? Why would the catalyst wish to preserve life as reapers? It'd be easier just wipe one or the other out and get on with existence?

funny that..

Umm, because if people knew what the functions were beforehand, there would had been a political s**tstorm, and the construction of the Crucible may had been delayed

Maybe not, as the catalyst would of become public, just as the reapers were 'outed' eventually. Knowledge is power?

[Bill Casey]

A cursory understanding of bioethics invalidates Synthesis...
It's the embodiment of everything we've been fighting for three games...

[Wayning_Star]

Bill Casey wrote...

A cursory understanding of bioethics invalidates Synthesis...
It's the embodiment of everything we've Bill Caseys' been fighting for three games...

strikethrough correction makes more sense, as it were..

[Bill Casey]

No...
It's the embodiment of everything you've been fighting against too...
Unless you didn't play the games...

You can't play the trilogy as the Reapers where you go around ascending people...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 mars 2013 - 04:21 .

[Vigilant111]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

NT121784 wrote...

I think synthesis is just too weird anymore to even consider. Destroy is straight to the point, though still a few draw backs. And screw control. Its a trick.

I thought it kind of funny that a military of the future only approached the crucible as some sort of weapon. Not having a first clue as to it's function or purpose. Only that it had that 'big bang' appeal.

Then, in the endgame, the catalyst boss figures it to be just a crude power supply, that gave it new avenues to consider the 'choices', as if they were acceptable regardless of their outcome.

The MEU ends up a top spinning out of control but endangered of being destroyed by those who just want to get along? Why would the catalyst wish to preserve life as reapers? It'd be easier just wipe one or the other out and get on with existence?

funny that..

Umm, because if people knew what the functions were beforehand, there would had been a political s**tstorm, and the construction of the Crucible may had been delayed

Maybe not, as the catalyst would of become public, just as the reapers were 'outed' eventually. Knowledge is power?

Good, more trouble when the Catalyst becomes public. When people know the missing piece of equipment to complete the Crucible is in fact a being that orchestrated the whole reaper traversty, what would they be thinking? It is easy to convince one person, but is it so easy to convince so many?

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Criminy cripes, it's just an option.

Nobody said you HAVE to pick it.

If this flawed logic is your opinion, you're welcome to Destroy, Refuse or whatever.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 mars 2013 - 04:21 .

[Argolas]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Criminy cripes, it's just an option.

Nobody said you HAVE to pick it.

If this flawed logic is your opinion, you're welcome to Destroy, Refuse or whatever.

Is this directed to me? If so, then I want to say that I never complained about the option being there. I just argue against it, that's all.

If you think my logic is flawed, mind that I do not claim this would be any more than my interpretation. I think that both the Cycle and Synthesis rely on perfection which has a static quality, but all life, both organic and synthetic, rely on adaption and advancement, in other words evolution. And I believe that this is why both the Cycle and Synthesis are doomed to failure.

[Yestare7]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Why I don't like synthesis and think it's terrible:
http://social.biowar...9404/4#16076107

Steelcan wrote...

 Synthesis is invalid because it is forcing a conclusion on all organic life that may or not be correct.  .

good, good, keep it up people!:happy:




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