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[Eterna]

Oh look, people pretending Headcannon means something more than just their own interpretations.

[CosmicGnosis]

Eterna5 wrote...

Oh look, people pretending Headcannon means something more than just their own interpretations.

To be fair, Synthesis does require some headcanon just to make it work. The issue is that most people develop a negative headcanon for it. There is no agreed upon widespread interpretation of Synthesis, although many people assume that it must be somehow bad.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 20 mars 2013 - 12:09 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

If everything including plants and anything with dna is now partially synthetic and it's all transcended life, then there is no point to life anymore. Congratulations you've just killed any reason for anyone to BE. What would happen then? It's just as bad as everyone being reduced to mush and uploaded to a giant squid ship.

What are you talking about? How does Synthesis render life meaningless? How does recovering the greatness that was lost, and ultimately surpassing it, lead to a meaningless existence?

It's unfortunate that BioWare has turned off everyone to any prospect of ascension.

. The Catalyst's "Ascension". http://m.youtube.com...h?v=si_P8BypaUk

[ruggly]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

If everything including plants and anything with dna is now partially synthetic and it's all transcended life, then there is no point to life anymore. Congratulations you've just killed any reason for anyone to BE. What would happen then? It's just as bad as everyone being reduced to mush and uploaded to a giant squid ship.

What are you talking about? How does Synthesis render life meaningless? How does recovering the greatness that was lost, and ultimately surpassing it, lead to a meaningless existence?

It's unfortunate that BioWare has turned off everyone to any prospect of ascension.

I'm really beginning to hate that word.  Like I have to become a demi-god or something to be able to live a good life.

[Getorex]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Oh look, people pretending Headcannon means something more than just their own interpretations.

To be fair, Synthesis does require some headcanon just to make it work. The issue is that most people develop a negative headcanon for it. There is no agreed upon widespread interpretation of Synthesis, although many people assume that it must be somehow bad.

Many a fan's "headcanon" is actually more deeply and logically thought out than the headcanon used as official by Bioware.  Bioware's headcanon is that of a couple guys doing a fast and furious brainstorm on how to finish this sucker off and move on to the next thing. 

At least my own headcanon fits perfectly in the theme and actions of both ME1 and ME2 - my ME3 doesn't suddenly drift off in a totally new direction with a totally uncharacteristic Shepard and a totally out-of-place ending (given the endings of 1 and 2...there's a clear running theme from ME1 and 2 with regards to endings and story).  My headcanon has flesh: MEHEM.

As for synthesis, the thing everyone everywhere can agree on if giving it a moments thought is that it is impossible on its face and makes no sense. How does a green beam magically turn all living things everywhere into glowing green mixtures of silicon and organic matter?  Or does the green beam implant chips in everyone somehow so they have chip addons to their brains, eyes, ears, skin, internal organs, etc? How does the beam reach anyone outside a system with a relay in it?  By what mechanism does a green beam of light carry ANYTHING besides analog or digital information (is it AM, FM, or digital signal?).  Bombarding any living thing with information in the form of radio wave or microwave or visible light doesn't turn them into reprogrammed organic bots. Sillyness abides.

Modifié par Getorex, 20 mars 2013 - 12:28 .

[CosmicGnosis]

ruggly wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

If everything including plants and anything with dna is now partially synthetic and it's all transcended life, then there is no point to life anymore. Congratulations you've just killed any reason for anyone to BE. What would happen then? It's just as bad as everyone being reduced to mush and uploaded to a giant squid ship.

What are you talking about? How does Synthesis render life meaningless? How does recovering the greatness that was lost, and ultimately surpassing it, lead to a meaningless existence?

It's unfortunate that BioWare has turned off everyone to any prospect of ascension.

I'm really beginning to hate that word.  Like I have to become a demi-god or something to be able to live a good life.

I know that it's often used in a negative context in stories, probably just as often as it's used in a positive context. I think Ieldra has stated it best: In order to survive in a large and hostile universe, we will have to change. We cannot remain as we are if we truly wish to explore and comprehend our existence and the nature of reality. What exactly that change should be is open to debate and speculation.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 20 mars 2013 - 12:27 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I know that it's often used in a negative context in stories, probably just as often as it's used in a positive context. I think Ieldra has stated it best: In order to survive in a large and hostile universe, we will have to change. We cannot remain as we are if we truly wish to explore and comprehend our existence and the nature of reality. What exactly that change should be is open to debate and speculation.

. Why?  We seem to be doing a fine job of it until the Reapers show up.  And I highly doubt there is anything worse than the Reapers out there,

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Who said anything about comprehending our existence and the nature of reality? That's a philosophical goal, not a scientific one. You don't find meaning in existence through scientific research, unless that is what you like to do. In which case, you've found meaning to your existence by doing what you like. Or if you prefer, you can find meaning in spirituality. I don't, but I'm not everyone. You *find* your own meaning to your existence. Or you *make* it if you can't find it.

You don't need synthesis to do that.

If you're talking about the physical conception of the universe, that's a bit different. Or what the fundamental building blocks of matter are. Or what the cause of gravity and space-time is.

Again, you don't need synthesis to do that.

[Eshaye]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What are you talking about? How does Synthesis render life meaningless? How does recovering the greatness that was lost, and ultimately surpassing it, lead to a meaningless existence?

It's unfortunate that BioWare has turned off everyone to any prospect of ascension.

Because life as we know it is about evolution, it's about learning and experience, rising above conflict, learning from conflict, improve ourselves based on these experiences. Each journey we undertake takes us in a different direction depending on how we choose to apply what we learn. 

If some super power comes along and just gives you everything, you learn nothing. What you gain is rendered meaningless by the simple fact that you didn't work to get there, you do not own the wisdom that would have come to you if you had learned things on your own. It's like cheating on an exam, it's like rich kids who are given everyhting and understand very little about living on their own. 

Because of the nature of organic life with synthesis you'll either reach a point where everyone will go insane, spend all eternity computing pi or just staring off into some unknown distance, turn into a race similar to the Reapers and start looking for worlds to harvest, or 'ascend' (it's for their own good....) or turn into this mystical race that knows and is all and guides the rest of the universe, like the complete creatures at the end of The Dark Crystal. However that leaves little to tell a story afterwards. 

The point is synthesis leads to decay, or at best stasis. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Eterna5 wrote...

Oh look, people pretending Headcannon means something more than just their own interpretations.

Everything about the game needs headcanon to some extent to make it work for them.

Particularly the ending. My own complete redoing of the ending aside, there is a lot of work that is needed to make the endings work.

If you take the endings at literal face value (the value BW originally intended), you're never going to make sense of them.

That's why BW has said it's now open to interpretation. They pretty much said that headcanon is alright.

[Applepie_Svk]

synthesis is racist and xenophobic... Dol wit DAT

[Eshaye]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


That's why BW has said it's now open to interpretation. They pretty much said that headcanon is alright.

To be fair Jessica M has said since the original launch that the endings were open to interpretation which is why she supported the IT even though it's not really in the game. 

[Yestare7]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

synthesis is racist and xenophobic... Dol wit DAT

I cannot support the word "racist", but Synthesis sure is messed up!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Eshaye wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What are you talking about? How does Synthesis render life meaningless? How does recovering the greatness that was lost, and ultimately surpassing it, lead to a meaningless existence?

It's unfortunate that BioWare has turned off everyone to any prospect of ascension.

Because life as we know it is about evolution, it's about learning and experience, rising above conflict, learning from conflict, improve ourselves based on these experiences. Each journey we undertake takes us in a different direction depending on how we choose to apply what we learn. 

If some super power comes along and just gives you everything, you learn nothing. What you gain is rendered meaningless by the simple fact that you didn't work to get there, you do not own the wisdom that would have come to you if you had learned things on your own. It's like cheating on an exam, it's like rich kids who are given everyhting and understand very little about living on their own. 

Because of the nature of organic life with synthesis you'll either reach a point where everyone will go insane, spend all eternity computing pi or just staring off into some unknown distance, turn into a race similar to the Reapers and start looking for worlds to harvest, or 'ascend' (it's for their own good....) or turn into this mystical race that knows and is all and guides the rest of the universe, like the complete creatures at the end of The Dark Crystal. However that leaves little to tell a story afterwards. 

The point is synthesis leads to decay, or at best stasis. 

I won't say that is the actual future of synthesis. I actually am a fan of the concept, just not in the sense of it in Mass Effect, and what the synthesis given in the game implies.

The synthesis given in game is a terrible, terrible outcome. It really is space magic. Along with the very nature of its presentation (the same you get for all the endings), the reasons for its implementation, the science behind its implementation, the nature of the group presenting it (the Reapers), the implications from inducing it, and the writers intent behind it all add up to make synthesis in the game fallacious to the level of 2+2=Fish.

http://social.biowar...9404/4#16076107

The idea of synthesis itself is a actually pretty interesting. It has its foundations in the modern concepts of transhumanism. It's not so much as seen as the 'final' step in evolution, so much as it is the next major leap in evolution for humans. We have almost reached the point where biological evolution can really do little more for us. We already use technology to make evolution irrelevant to an extent. So we use technology to evolve ourselves further.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 20 mars 2013 - 02:46 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Yestare7 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

synthesis is racist and xenophobic... Dol wit DAT

I cannot support the word "racist", but Synthesis sure is messed up!

Geths are synthetic race while Quarians are organic race...

Catalyst is synthetic and his premise that both synthetic and organics has to be merged into green mumbo jumbo because he failed to solve a problem with his absolute circular logc. The rule is that synthetics will always surpass and destroy organics and he has to stop it, while synthesis is exactly doing what is his logic says and that´s surpassing organics.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 20 mars 2013 - 03:03 .

[Ieldra]

Phatose wrote...
In the epilogue, EDI also makes very clear evolution is continuing though. "To recover the greatness that was lost....and surpass it." "We may transcend mortality itself, to reach a level I cannot even imagine."

I think you're misinterpreting metaphor.

This.

The "final evolution" line is at fault here. It doesn't need an IQ of 150 to see that line is complete nonsense.

[Eshaye]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


http://social.biowar...9404/4#16076107

The idea of synthesis itself is a actually pretty interesting. It has its foundations in the modern concepts of transhumanism. It's not so much as seen as the 'final' step in evolution, so much as it is the next major leap in evolution for humans. We have almost reached the point where biological evolution can really do little more for us. We already use technology to make evolution irrelevant to an extent. So we use technology to evolve ourselves further.

And if those had been the questions raised in the ending it would have been miles above what we got. I actually do see that the merge between synthetics and organics is a good possibility, over time, not all of a sudden for the reasons I listed. Those who are risen before they are ready usually make a mess of what they have been given or do nothing at all. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 20 mars 2013 - 02:57 .

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Phatose wrote...
In the epilogue, EDI also makes very clear evolution is continuing though. "To recover the greatness that was lost....and surpass it." "We may transcend mortality itself, to reach a level I cannot even imagine."

I think you're misinterpreting metaphor.

This.

The "final evolution" line is at fault here. It doesn't need an IQ of 150 to see that line is complete nonsense.

. I'm willing to take what the Catalyst says at a higher level than the ending narration.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Phatose wrote...
In the epilogue, EDI also makes very clear evolution is continuing though. "To recover the greatness that was lost....and surpass it." "We may transcend mortality itself, to reach a level I cannot even imagine."

I think you're misinterpreting metaphor.

This.

The "final evolution" line is at fault here. It doesn't need an IQ of 150 to see that line is complete nonsense.

. I'm willing to take what the Catalyst says at a higher level than the ending narration.

If you don't meta-game, what the Catalyst says, as presented to Shepard, makes no sense and would be an immediate red-flag. The DNA stuff was even worse. I'd be convinced that the bugger was trying to trick me into doing something that would **** over the galaxy.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Phatose wrote...
In the epilogue, EDI also makes very clear evolution is continuing though. "To recover the greatness that was lost....and surpass it." "We may transcend mortality itself, to reach a level I cannot even imagine."
I think you're misinterpreting metaphor.

This.

The "final evolution" line is at fault here. It doesn't need an IQ of 150 to see that line is complete nonsense.

. I'm willing to take what the Catalyst says at a higher level than the ending narration.

If you don't meta-game, what the Catalyst says, as presented to Shepard, makes no sense and would be an immediate red-flag. The DNA stuff was even worse. I'd be convinced that the bugger was trying to trick me into doing something that would **** over the galaxy.

. I just figured he was crazy.

[aj2070]

Don't know which point to quote but; This thread FTW!!!

[o Ventus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

If you don't meta-game, what the Catalyst says, as presented to Shepard, makes no sense and would be an immediate red-flag. The DNA stuff was even worse. I'd be convinced that the bugger was trying to trick me into doing something that would **** over the galaxy.

So essentially what's happening is the Synthesis that the Catalyst describes isn't the same Synthesis that actually happens.

[Xellith]

Mcfly616 wrote...

mavqt wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

One problem....synthetics didn't help create the Crucible

Don't the Geth say they'll help once you either side with them or peace is created between them and the Quarians.

so? We're simply building a machine based on blueprints handed down from cycle to cycle. All thr Geth would be doing is following the blueprints....not adding anything.

 So by your logic.. organics are simply building a machine based on blueprints handed down from cycle to cycle.  All the organics would be doing is following the blueprints.. not adding anything. 

Um.. no.  The fact that the geth develop their own weapons, ships and other technology shows that they have the ability to improve upon existing designs with their own adaptations, the same as organics.  Where are you getting this "the synthetics wont add anything" from?

Not to mention the "synthetics didnt help create the crucible". 

1. Synthetics didnt help build the crucible
2.  Synthetics have not added anything to the crucible.

Where is your proof to back these 2 claims up?

Modifié par Xellith, 20 mars 2013 - 04:02 .

[cerberus1701]

Phatose wrote...

So.....convince me that "Synthesis is the final evolution of all life" means complete stagnation, and not that post Synthesis, life is no longer the appropriate term.

Final evolution of life is an oxymoron.

Biological stagnation leads to irrelevancy. Leads to an inability to deal with an environment (in this case the universe) that is continuing to evolve.

I snap my fingers and grant you immortality as you are today.

How are Humans going to look at you in 100,000 years? At what point are you simply going to be unable to manage or even process the world that these evolving Humans create?

The OP is spot on. All life in the universe will continue to grow and change biologically and be able to relate to it and change it in ways that the "final evolution" won't be able to.

The greene lose.

I can imagine Mordin laughing himself to death listening to the kid tout Synthesis.

[Wayning_Star]

the question is simple: Do organics control their own version of destiny or does Nature it's self hold the key to intellect, and how that intellect interacts with or against nature to survive.

What will you do and how far you will go to survive Mother nature as it evolves you? Do you even have a say about it, you know, be an independent agent, all things considered.

IN the MEU, apparently not.

(you cannot destroy the catalyst by using the catalyst to destroy the catalyst..lol, that'd make you the catalyst, and a pinnacle of evolution or 'top dog', in that minimal scheme of things