225 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

IF harvest is killing, why call it harvest? Non sequitur

Because it's like farming to them. You let the crop grow, and then when it's time for the harvest you cut it.

also here is a possible definition of harvest: "To take or kill (fish or deer, for example) for food, sport, or population control."
So you see it's not a non sequitur at all.

The catalyst, through reaperships are "eating" everyone, even synthetics?

nah, they're reaping the rewards of advanced civvies to garner them for future reference. i.e. logical.

being reaped sucks, but it's not exactly 'killing' as that means an absolute 'end' of being, and even Shepard doesn't exactly 'die' in the story. Ever... Its all about change and how that is reflected and altered through some sort of evolutionary ideal, or rationalization for evolution. As IF evolution is key to existence within the MEU realities.

Maybe evolution is a farce? Maybe intellect doesn't evolve at all, it just goes along with nature to survive'n stuff.

If I were to stop your heart,  put you into a kebab and cook you,  you would still exist in some form. Does that mean I haven't killed you? If I then ate this kebab, you would then be processed and assume another form (probably more than one, the way digestion works). Surely that means you're not dead yet? You've just been changed to a different form, right? 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KingZayd wrote...

If I were to stop your heart,  put you into a kebab and cook you,  you would still exist in some form. Does that mean I haven't killed you? If I then ate this kebab, you would then be processed and assume another form (probably more than one, the way digestion works). Surely that means you're not dead yet? You've just been changed to a different form, right? 

Yeah, this.

[Eshaye]

remydat wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

Hmm no thanks, how about you tell me if synthesis makes you immortal or not first. Reproduction exists because death exists. lol

I didn't make a thread claiming Synthesis ends evolution.  If the OP or you want to discuss the moral implications of Synthethis then we can discuss it but that is technically a topic for another thread.  This specific thread makes an factually incorrect statement based on incorrect understanding of Evolution and Natural Selection.  I corrected that factual inaccuracy.  Running away from the truth doesn't change the truth.  If you have evidence that people will no longer enjoy sex and have babies because they are immortal then please let me know.  I must have missed where that was stated in the extended cut.

No actually what you are doing is ending a particular path of discussion and forcing your own views on the matter, a path I will not follow. I'm more then happy to discuss natural selection if you are willing to discuss my question, if you are not then it ends the discussion and starts the butting of heads which is totally pointless. So no thanks. 

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

We see an old man talking to a child in the far future.  A child.  Reproduction still occurs.  Evolution still occurs.  There is nothing in the story to suggest Joker and EDI will not have sex and have babies.

I don't recall claiming otherwise. I just claim that reproduction does not mean that evolution continues. Biology may demand that to be true (I don't know about that), but biology can't apply to cyborgs.

remydat wrote...

Look you are free to have your theory but it is just that, a theory.  The fact is while this is a sci fi novel that takes liberties with science there is nothing in the story that says reproduction is somehow different in the MEU than it is here.  Hybrifs will have babies and those babies will inherit different traits.  Hybrids will use their brains to use tools to adapt to their environment.  They will adapt and evolve for those reasons.

I never said this was more than a theory. YOU are the one claiming you state facts while this is just your own interpretation again. Science is NOT on your side here, neither is it on mine.

[Auld Wulf]

The OP is missing the point. It's helpful to understand transhumanism and the Singularity before entering into a discussion like this as without that understand you won't twig what BioWare is actually trying to tell you. The point is is that ultimately synthetic and organic cooperation will result in a fusion of organics and synthetics. Essentially OP, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. If evolution were a stagnant thing that rests in one state, then you'd have something, but it also helps to understand that evolution is never a stagnant state.

So the long term goal for humanity, and the very point of transhumanism and the Singularity, is to merge more synthetic elements into us, as they counteract organic weaknesses. If we have complete understand of how certain organs work, we can replace them and maintain them ourselves and not have to worry about those organs falling prey to illnesses that we can't repair. Plus, hot-swapping organs becomes much easier with synthetic organs.

All that Synthesis does is leap the gap between synthetic and organic cooperation to synthetic and organic fusion. Shepard is proof (and Shepard invalidates the OP) that this fusion is most likely. When the technology exists to provide that level of medical care to all humans, then we'll naturally become largely synthetic as par the course. It's all about augmentation. Will we (or someone else) eventually be able to build something that does things better than our organic bodies do? The answer to that is ultimately yes.

And once we reach that point and once we have artificial intelligences, the evolution of the synthetic-organic fusion will progress far more quickly than a simple organic evolution would. Organic evolution is much slower by comparison. There is a ludditism where people fear and shunt he idea of organic-synthetic integration, but that's silly, because that's like shunning the future. It is inevitable. It's just a matter of when it happens.

So, once again, all Synthesis does is bring the calendar forward a couple a centuries. That kind of Synthesis, that kind of fusion, is going to happen anyway. If it'll end suffering and free people from the tyranny of nature (sickness and frailty) then I see no problem with skipping the gap between the Mass Effect present day and fusion. Joker and EDI are clearly happy this happened, but then they tend to be clever, intelligent, open-minded people.

So, no OP. Your argument assumes that evolution is stagnant, never changing. That's the flaw in your argument. And so long as that flaw exists, then the rest of your argument is null and void. We're always trying to improve ourselves. Evolution is trying to improve us from the cellular level. Eventually we're going to get to a point where we take charge of our own evolution and speed things up a bit. That's going to happen. Assuming it won't is tantamount to sticking your head in the sand.

[Yestare7]

Here is one of the primary reasons Synthesis is wrong:

The starbrat (An insane horrific genocidal AI) has made many atrocious decisions before.
If he prefers Synthesis, it MUST be wrong.

simple, really.

[Auld Wulf]

@Yestare7

Its decisions allowed the younger races to thrive, where otherwise they would have been slaves to either the Leviathans or the protheans.

What, exactly, has the Catalyst done wrong? (Also, namecalling fictional characters is ludicrous and doesn't do a lot for perceived intelligence.)

Edit: I'll say again that I don't agree with the Catalyst's methods, but the natural heirarchy of life imposed by nature is always going to result in slaves and masters until something overturns that. So ultimately I agree with the Catalyst's goals even if I don't agree with its methods.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 20 mars 2013 - 06:54 .

[CosmicGnosis]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

We have almost reached the point where biological evolution can really do little more for us. We already use technology to make evolution irrelevant to an extent. So we use technology to evolve ourselves further.

This is kind of why I think the ending choices are about technology in general and what we should do with it. Eons ago, humans created their first tools. By the time of Mass Effect, their tools have become self-aware; "life" has been bestowed upon them. Many philosophical dilemmas emerge because of this reality. I like Synthesis because it removes the chains of Nature; we are no longer at its mercy. Never before have individuals been so free to determine their destinies. The Reapers no longer hold a monopoly on power and the unknown; everyone is empowered. This is how I like to interpret Synthesis, and it validates EDI's optimism.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 20 mars 2013 - 07:03 .

[Eshaye]

[quote]remydat wrote...

We see an old man talking to a child in the far future.  A child.  Reproduction still occurs.  Evolution still occurs.  There is nothing in the story to suggest Joker and EDI will not have sex and have babies.[/quote]


[/quote]

Oh geez I wasn't going to reply to you again, but the thing is this is no proof. The only thing the last ending slide proves is that none of the choices Shepard makes; control, destroy or synthesis, have any actual impact in the far future at all as it is present in every possible ending. And that really is another discussion for another thread. (Like the IT one to beat a dead, resurected and dead again horse)

Modifié par Eshaye, 20 mars 2013 - 07:05 .

[Yestare7]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Yestare7

What, exactly, has the Catalyst done wrong? 

He killed gazillions. upon gazillions.

[Sideria]

Well without the Catalyst, humanity would never had the chance to evolve.
See, he did something right

Modifié par Sideria, 20 mars 2013 - 07:06 .

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...


Like I said: "Reapers kill all species eventually. Except the ones that die out before they reach the space age."
The only ones that they don't kill are the ones that don't make it.

If I kill every survivor of a terrible plague, I am not better than the person who kills everyone just before the plague merely because I killed less people.

Who said the Reapers were better? I said what Shepard does is worse ie I am commenting on the act not passing judgment on the person performing the act.  If the Reapers had killed all organic life during the very first Cycle then there would be no Game.  Life would be over and there would be no chance for anybody to stop the.  The fact they instead chose to kill over countless cycles gives organics a chance to fight back and gives organics the opportunity to live life for 50,000 years.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The OP is missing the point. It's helpful to understand transhumanism and the Singularity before entering into a discussion like this as without that understand you won't twig what BioWare is actually trying to tell you. The point is is that ultimately synthetic and organic cooperation will result in a fusion of organics and synthetics. Essentially OP, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. If evolution were a stagnant thing that rests in one state, then you'd have something, but it also helps to understand that evolution is never a stagnant state.

So the long term goal for humanity, and the very point of transhumanism and the Singularity, is to merge more synthetic elements into us, as they counteract organic weaknesses. If we have complete understand of how certain organs work, we can replace them and maintain them ourselves and not have to worry about those organs falling prey to illnesses that we can't repair. Plus, hot-swapping organs becomes much easier with synthetic organs.

All that Synthesis does is leap the gap between synthetic and organic cooperation to synthetic and organic fusion. Shepard is proof (and Shepard invalidates the OP) that this fusion is most likely. When the technology exists to provide that level of medical care to all humans, then we'll naturally become largely synthetic as par the course. It's all about augmentation. Will we (or someone else) eventually be able to build something that does things better than our organic bodies do? The answer to that is ultimately yes.

And once we reach that point and once we have artificial intelligences, the evolution of the synthetic-organic fusion will progress far more quickly than a simple organic evolution would. Organic evolution is much slower by comparison. There is a ludditism where people fear and shunt he idea of organic-synthetic integration, but that's silly, because that's like shunning the future. It is inevitable. It's just a matter of when it happens.

So, once again, all Synthesis does is bring the calendar forward a couple a centuries. That kind of Synthesis, that kind of fusion, is going to happen anyway. If it'll end suffering and free people from the tyranny of nature (sickness and frailty) then I see no problem with skipping the gap between the Mass Effect present day and fusion. Joker and EDI are clearly happy this happened, but then they tend to be clever, intelligent, open-minded people.

So, no OP. Your argument assumes that evolution is stagnant, never changing. That's the flaw in your argument. And so long as that flaw exists, then the rest of your argument is null and void. We're always trying to improve ourselves. Evolution is trying to improve us from the cellular level. Eventually we're going to get to a point where we take charge of our own evolution and speed things up a bit. That's going to happen. Assuming it won't is tantamount to sticking your head in the sand.

I don't recall considering evolution stagnant, on the contrary. The fact that it is not stagnant is what makes it superior to perfection. Remember the Reapers? "You represent chaos. We represent order." Well, chaos wins.

Also, stop putting words in BioWare's mouth. As long as I don't hear otherwise from themselves, I refuse to believe that they were trying to "tell us" something beyond the game.

[Eshaye]

Wait a minute, this isn't a topic on which ending is better/impossible or what not. I thought it was a discussion on why choosing destroy vs synthesis would make sense. For those who don't agree and prefer synthesis that's fine, but there are those of us still finding it unsatisfying and prefer destroy and love to see how people make sense of it.

There's no need to come in and convince people of anything... Just putting that out there. All the endings make fans want to make sense of their choice.....

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This is kind of why I think the ending choices are about technology in general and what we should do with it. Eons ago, humans created their first tools. By the time of Mass Effect, their tools have become self-aware; "life" has been bestowed upon them. Many philosophical dilemmas emerge because of this reality. I like Synthesis because it removes the chains of Nature; we are no longer at its mercy. Never before have individuals been so free to determine their destinies. The Reapers no longer hold a monopoly on power and the unknown; everyone is empowered. This is how I like to interpret Synthesis, and it validates EDI's optimism.

That is a good way of looking at it, my only problem is the concept that nature holds us back and are chains. That's hard for me to believe as I see nature as the beginning and end of everything, it actually never ever ends, it's eternally repeating and yet moving beyond itself. Technology is just a way for us to uncover that, I think that's why I find the idea of synthesis just a little too easy and suspiscious. 

Heh I have to go... 

Modifié par Eshaye, 20 mars 2013 - 07:37 .

[remydat]

Eshaye wrote...

remydat wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

Hmm no thanks, how about you tell me if synthesis makes you immortal or not first. Reproduction exists because death exists. lol

I didn't make a thread claiming Synthesis ends evolution.  If the OP or you want to discuss the moral implications of Synthethis then we can discuss it but that is technically a topic for another thread.  This specific thread makes an factually incorrect statement based on incorrect understanding of Evolution and Natural Selection.  I corrected that factual inaccuracy.  Running away from the truth doesn't change the truth.  If you have evidence that people will no longer enjoy sex and have babies because they are immortal then please let me know.  I must have missed where that was stated in the extended cut.

No actually what you are doing is ending a particular path of discussion and forcing your own views on the matter, a path I will not follow. I'm more then happy to discuss natural selection if you are willing to discuss my question, if you are not then it ends the discussion and starts the butting of heads which is totally pointless. So no thanks. 

I am not ending a path of discussion.  I am explaining the factual inaccuracies in that path.  If you still want to ignore the factual inaccuracy and create fan fiction based on inaccurate science then you are free to do so. 

And I thought I answered your question with my response but I will try and be clearer.  I don't know if synthesis makes one immortal or not but let's assume it does.  And?  As long as you can have children then it doesn't matter.  You are assuming that survival of the species is the only reason people have kids.  That is simply incorrect.  Humanity has long since evolved past the idea that reproduction is only important as a means to carry on the species.  We have sex because we like it and we have kids because we value the emotional connections we create.  Legion developing relationship with Shepard and his crew and EDI's relationshop with Joker prove that a fully synthetic race still values those connections so it is illogical to just assume those reasons would disappear due to synthesis.

So your premise that immortality or the curing of death makes reproduction unnecessary is false because it ignores the obvious fact that synthetics and organics alike want to feel connected to each other and their is no greater connection in real life or in MEU than the joining of two entities to create a child.

[Bill Casey]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This is kind of why I think the ending choices are about technology in general and what we should do with it.

People are not technology...
That's racist and offensive...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 mars 2013 - 07:27 .

[Eshaye]

remydat wrote...

So your premise that immortality or the curing of death makes reproduction unnecessary is false because it ignores the obvious fact that synthetics and organics alike want to feel connected to each other and their is no greater connection in real life or in MEU than the joining of two entities to create a child.

Yeah okay buddy... What happens if people keep reproducing and never die? Just think about it. :happy:

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

We see an old man talking to a child in the far future.  A child.  Reproduction still occurs.  Evolution still occurs.  There is nothing in the story to suggest Joker and EDI will not have sex and have babies.

I don't recall claiming otherwise. I just claim that reproduction does not mean that evolution continues. Biology may demand that to be true (I don't know about that), but biology can't apply to cyborgs.

remydat wrote...

Look you are free to have your theory but it is just that, a theory.  The fact is while this is a sci fi novel that takes liberties with science there is nothing in the story that says reproduction is somehow different in the MEU than it is here.  Hybrifs will have babies and those babies will inherit different traits.  Hybrids will use their brains to use tools to adapt to their environment.  They will adapt and evolve for those reasons.

I never said this was more than a theory. YOU are the one claiming you state facts while this is just your own interpretation again. Science is NOT on your side here, neither is it on mine.

All I am trying to do here is discern what parts of your theory are based on actual facts from the story or science and which parts are basically just your interpretation.  If you tell me that you are ignoring evidence in the story and ignoring how science works then fine, I don't have a problem with it.  I just interpreted from your OP that you thought your theory flows from the story and I don't think it does because.

1.  There is no evidence that biologiy does not apply to a hybrid that I am aware of.  If you have evidence from the story please present it.
2.  There is evidence that a hybrid can still have sex because Joker and the other organic crew members post crash still have fleshy organic body parts that they can use to have sex.
3.  There is no evidence hybrids cannot have children.  Once could argue the old man and child we see in the distant future are in the synthesis ending hybrids and hence proof that children exist.
4.  If you pass on you genes to your child, over time natural selection occurs.  natural selection is the mechanism by which evolution takes place.

[remydat]

Eshaye wrote...


Oh geez I wasn't going to reply to you again, but the thing is this is no proof. The only thing the last ending slide proves is that none of the choices Shepard makes; control, destroy or synthesis, have any actual impact in the far future at all as it is present in every possible ending. And that really is another discussion for another thread. (Like the IT one to beat a dead, resurected and dead again horse)

No it is not proof.  It is evidence that reproduction still occurs and hence natural selection and evolution still occurs.  It could be interpreted as you interpret it or it can be interpreted as if you chose destory or control that is an organic talking to his organic progeny.  If you choose synthesis that is a hybrid talking to his hybrid progeny.  I freely admit both interpretations are possible but under any of those scenarios it still means reproduction occurs and evolution occurs which still means synthesis doesn't do what the OP says it does.

Eshaye wrote...

remydat wrote...

So your premise that immortality or the curing of death makes reproduction unnecessary is false because it ignores the obvious fact that synthetics and organics alike want to feel connected to each other and their is no greater connection in real life or in MEU than the joining of two entities to create a child.

Yeah okay buddy... What happens if people keep reproducing and never die? Just think about it. :happy:

The Universe has trillions of stars with gazillions of planets rotating them.  If they are too stupid and fight and kill each other over resources in a single galaxy instead of finding a means to exlpore the vastness of space and settle new worlds then that is their own fault.  That has no bearing on whether evolution occurs.  Or am I mistaken in this conflict being confined to just a single galaxy ie the Milky Way.

Becoming a hybrid doesn't mean everyone just lives happily ever after.  They will still need to figure out and deal with the same issues anyone has to deal with.  The challenge will be whether their new found interconnectedness and advancement makes them work together or not.

Modifié par remydat, 20 mars 2013 - 09:05 .

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

1.  There is no evidence that biologiy does not apply to a hybrid that I am aware of.  If you have evidence from the story please present it.
2.  There is evidence that a hybrid can still have sex because Joker and the other organic crew members post crash still have fleshy organic body parts that they can use to have sex.
3.  There is no evidence hybrids cannot have children.  Once could argue the old man and child we see in the distant future are in the synthesis ending hybrids and hence proof that children exist.
4.  If you pass on you genes to your child, over time natural selection occurs.  natural selection is the mechanism by which evolution takes place.

1. In terms of biology, Synthetics do not qualify as alive. It does not cover fictional synthetic life because biology is a real science that only applies to real life.
2. ; 3. I do not recall claiming that. Sex and reproduction is not the same as evolution.
4. Natural selection does not occur in a controlled system with artificial genes, especially not if mortality is indeed overcome.

[Seival]

Everything has its limits. If there is nowhere to evolve further - evolution stops. Synthesis is the final evolution of life, and there is nothing bad or illogical in that.

Crucible is just a battery, a "consumable item", a "vial of fuel for the galactic-scale explosion" - the Catalyst told that itself. Crucible's "evolution" was clearly about becoming more simple in terms of production, stronger in terms of self-defense, and more "roomy" in terms of amount of energy it can contain.

Most likely the Crucible was the Leviathans' project. I believe the first iteration of Crucible was made by an enthralled race.

Modifié par Seival, 20 mars 2013 - 08:13 .

[o Ventus]

remydat wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

"Destroy makes Shepard a Reaper"?

What in the entire f**k?

Does it kill all synthetics?  Oh my bad, it does not make him a Reaper.  Reapers actually spare some organic species.  Shepard kills all synthetics which is worse, lol.

How is killing all synthetics (who can be continually rebuilt to exact specifications) somehow inherently worse than killing all organics (who can't)?

Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about, or are you just spouting nonsense in an attempt to sound intelligent?

[o Ventus]

Seival wrote...

Everything has its limits. If there is nowhere to evolve further - evolution stops. Synthesis is the final evolution of life, and there is nothing bad or illogical in that.

"Pinnacle of evolution" is a contradictory statement. There is no end to evolution. It can stagnate for a time, but it wont stop. Please, don't sully your reputation even more than you already have, Seival.

Modifié par o Ventus, 20 mars 2013 - 08:20 .

[David7204]

Yestare7 wrote...

Here is one of the primary reasons Synthesis is wrong:

The starbrat (An insane horrific genocidal AI) has made many atrocious decisions before.
If he prefers Synthesis, it MUST be wrong.

simple, really.

I don't like Synthesis. But this is dumb.

Hitler ate sugar. Sugar must therefore be bad?

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Everything has its limits. If there is nowhere to evolve further - evolution stops. Synthesis is the final evolution of life, and there is nothing bad or illogical in that.

Logical mistake. Evolution is no line going up and up. Evolution is a process of adapting to our environment and that is always dynamic. Once evolution stops, we are doomed. It may take a long time, but if we fail to adapt, we vanish one day.

That is why the crucible is so symbolic. Just as organics and synthetics are nowhere near as powerful and advanced as Reapers or the people post-Synthesis, the Crucible is nowhere near as powerful and advanced as Reaper tech like the Relays or the Reapers themselves. And the Crucible still wins. It wins for the one reason that it was able to adapt while the Reapers were not.