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RtO = market test?


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#76
Alphakiller

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Lopper128 wrote...

CptPatch wrote...

From those that have played it, it sounds like a 30-minute quest -- for $5.


It was about 30 min yes


and yet here in california, the minimum one can get paid for just one hour of work is $8.
which translates to $4 for 30 minutes of time.

don't you think people going through all the effort of programming the game should get paid more than minimum wage? i'd think in that way, it should be far more than a 25% bonus, because it takes a lot of effort to design these kinds of things.

i'm quite happy that i'm not being forced to pay more than $5, and even more thankful that the game didn't cost me as much to play as I would have made working in the same amount of time.

#77
mrmike_1949

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Frozeal wrote...

Also add the replay value.
Imho, not bad price, it's only U$5, stop whining about that; just don't smoke cigar or pot the next party and/or don't get mindlessly drunk and there you have it.


Only $5 - do you give $5 to every bum that asks for "spare change"
Do you tip a waitress $5 for a cup of coffee??

It's about the value of money:

The game
itself sells for ~ $50 ; that has to pay for all developement of game
engine, game writing, graphics, voices, etc, marketing, and production
(dvds and cases and distribution), also profit for retail sales. Game
playing time varies, but is likely at least 50 hours for the first play
through (with no DLC).

This equals 1$ per hour of game play (conservatively: my first play through took over 75 hours).

Any
DLC done only need game writing/scripting and voices and maybe some new
graphics (items) - no game engine dev costs, almost no marketing or
distribution costs. No retail sales, only online form EA/Bioware

So
why do they think it's worth $5 for 45 minutes of game play for dlc
??????? Six (6) times as exspensive at the original game???../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png

Any ideas out there?

MikeK

#78
KadivyaSky

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

Frozeal wrote...

Also add the replay value.
Imho, not bad price, it's only U$5, stop whining about that; just don't smoke cigar or pot the next party and/or don't get mindlessly drunk and there you have it.


Only $5 - do you give $5 to every bum that asks for "spare change"
Do you tip a waitress $5 for a cup of coffee??

It's about the value of money:

The game
itself sells for ~ $50 ; that has to pay for all developement of game
engine, game writing, graphics, voices, etc, marketing, and production
(dvds and cases and distribution), also profit for retail sales. Game
playing time varies, but is likely at least 50 hours for the first play
through (with no DLC).

This equals 1$ per hour of game play (conservatively: my first play through took over 75 hours).

Any
DLC done only need game writing/scripting and voices and maybe some new
graphics (items) - no game engine dev costs, almost no marketing or
distribution costs. No retail sales, only online form EA/Bioware

So
why do they think it's worth $5 for 45 minutes of game play for dlc
??????? Six (6) times as exspensive at the original game???../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png

Any ideas out there?

MikeK


They still have to pay the voice actors to come back and record new stuff, and that in multiple languages. They have the group working on the expressions and the like. There's the writing for this side bit. There are still QA people testing this. So just because they don't have as much invested in marketing, consider that they're pulling everyone together each time for this content, paying them, perhaps there are royalties involved as well depending on contracts for the actors and writers. This isn't even including the technical end where they piece things together, edit, and choreograph, splicing appropriate music in, etc. There is a lot that goes into even this smaller content (as opposed to the larger original game). It's an investment of time, money, and creativity. It's a work of art, really, composed by many. Certainly it's smaller than the original content, but it's still quality work that's gone through all the rigors of creating as the original game.

I'm just glad the production team and creative minds are still at work creating more of this world for us to enjoy. So what if enjoyment comes at a price? Most things in life do. If those creating were not compensated for their creations, I doubt they would exist for the mass market at all. I'm just glad at this time I'm able to afford that price.

Modifié par KadivyaSky, 15 janvier 2010 - 05:38 .


#79
Guest_Crawling_Chaos_*

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KadivyaSky wrote...

They still have to pay the voice actors to come back and record new stuff, and that in multiple languages. They have the group working on the expressions and the like. There's the writing for this side bit. There are still QA people testing this. So just because they don't have as much invested in marketing, consider that they're pulling everyone together each time for this content, paying them, perhaps there are royalties involved as well depending on contracts for the actors and writers. This isn't even including the technical end where they piece things together, edit, and choreograph, splicing appropriate music in, etc. There is a lot that goes into even this smaller content (as opposed to the larger original game). It's an investment of time, money, and creativity. It's a work of art, really, composed by many. Certainly it's smaller than the original content, but it's still quality work that's gone through all the rigors of creating as the original game.

I'm just glad the production team and creative minds are still at work creating more of this world for us to enjoy. So what if enjoyment comes at a price? Most things in life do. If those creating were not compensated for their creations, I doubt they would exist for the mass market at all. I'm just glad at this time I'm able to afford that price.


Yeah, right.

That's why I've downloaded 3 mods of better quality than the Wardens Keep.

#80
mrmike_1949

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my point is that the main game MUST cost more $/hour of play than later add-ons. Even doubling or tripling the voice costs due to piece meal recording doesn't add that much to justify >6X cost. Most of the other costs for DLC should be proportional to the main game develop costs (edit, QA, music, etc)

I am assuming that that the vast majority of the game programmers/devs actually work for Bioware

#81
KadivyaSky

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Crawling_Chaos wrote...

KadivyaSky wrote...

They still have to pay the voice actors to come back and record new stuff, and that in multiple languages. They have the group working on the expressions and the like. There's the writing for this side bit. There are still QA people testing this. So just because they don't have as much invested in marketing, consider that they're pulling everyone together each time for this content, paying them, perhaps there are royalties involved as well depending on contracts for the actors and writers. This isn't even including the technical end where they piece things together, edit, and choreograph, splicing appropriate music in, etc. There is a lot that goes into even this smaller content (as opposed to the larger original game). It's an investment of time, money, and creativity. It's a work of art, really, composed by many. Certainly it's smaller than the original content, but it's still quality work that's gone through all the rigors of creating as the original game.

I'm just glad the production team and creative minds are still at work creating more of this world for us to enjoy. So what if enjoyment comes at a price? Most things in life do. If those creating were not compensated for their creations, I doubt they would exist for the mass market at all. I'm just glad at this time I'm able to afford that price.


Yeah, right.

That's why I've downloaded 3 mods of better quality than the Wardens Keep.


I somehow doubt that the mods would be available at all without the toolset provided by the company that made the game. Private people can volunteer make their own mods in their own time and release them free to the public, yes, but they also don't have a production team to pay, voice actors to pay, writers to pay, and so forth. Perhaps they are perceived as better quality but I would prefer to play canon than fanfic. That's just my preference.

And as for replayability, that's going to be up to each individual. What is just a few scripted lines of dialog for one person is rich compelling storytelling for another. People differ. I'm likely to play it on all of my characters and that 45 minutes for one person is going to be at /least/ 360 minutes for me with all my various playthroughs. 5 bucks for 360 minutes? Yeah...easy.

#82
KadivyaSky

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

KadivyaSky
my point is that the main game MUST cost more $/hour of play than later add-ons. Even doubling or tripling the voice costs due to piece meal recording doesn't add that much to justify >6X cost. Most of the other costs for DLC should be proportional to the main game develop costs (edit, QA, music, etc)
I am assuming that that the vast majority of the game programmers/devs actually work for Bioware


What people often forget is profit often equals incentive. They want to make profit. And depending on contracts to fly voice actors out to wherever to record tracks and whatnot, there may be costs we just don't k now about. On top of that though, there has to be a profitable incentive, or they wouldn't be doing it. They don't have to, but they are. Some people won't like it that they make a profit off of customers, and some will understand that they're still in business to make money at the end of the day with their shareholders and whatnot. Their resources would be diverted elsewhere if they were not making not only enough to cover overhead but to cover the required profit margin for resources devoted to the project.

They understand that of all the people that bought the product, only a fraction will pay for the DLC. That is taken into account when they calculate effort vs. yield.  When or if the effort becomes greater than the yield, they'll stop producing. The resources will be reallocated.

And as I mentioned just a bit ago, 45 mins to one person could be 360+ minutes to another who values replayability in the game.  And this is just my take on it. I could be wrong.

#83
mrmike_1949

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replay doesn't matter: the RATIO of $ per hour of gameplay remain >6X for DLC vs main game. I would much rather they work on DA2, with 50 to 80 hours of game play for ~$50 that 10 little DLCs for $50 that have maybe 7 or 8 hours of gameplay!!!!!

#84
Kyzzo

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replay doesn't matter: the RATIO of $ per hour of gameplay remain >6X for DLC vs main game


The full game sells roughly 6 times as many units as any DLC, assuming that the claim that about 15-16% of gamers on average buy DLC for their favorite games, which I read recently in an article somewhere, is reasonably accurate. Additonally, there's the "opportunity cost"; that is, the cost of losing the opportunity to work on getting another full title out, which is likely to be more profitable, due to the available resources being diverted to DLC projects.

#85
KadivyaSky

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mrmike, they already probably /are/ working on these other projects. They have only so many resources. We know they are working on Dragon Age: Awakening. We do not know what else they are working on, and what their overhead is, nor do we know how much royalties are being paid out, if any. It could be that they've had to hire extra resources just to do the additional content between games, or the same team is working on all projects.



If you consider that most games on the shelves are only 10+ hours of gameplay, and sell for the same price as DA:O, you realize how much of a gift Bioware gave their playerbase in 'extra for no cost'. If you think of it that way, it's really that those that don't value the current DLC may not realize how generous Bioware has already been to its customers in included content.



Think of it this way...if you got 60 hours of gameplay out of DA:O, you got 50 more hours of gameplay for your buck than another company would give you for the same amount of money. 50 hours 'free' to play and enjoy. A gift. They didn't have to provide so much for so 'little' by comparison, but they did. So now we're having to pay a little for their additional content? I don't see a problem with it. I'm glad for the gift I was given at the outset.

#86
mrmike_1949

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I can't remember the last time I had a game with only 10 hours of play:

Fallout 3 >60 hours Oblivion > 50 hours Bioshock >40 hours Morrowind, Might& Magic 9, etc. all "long".I recently replayed Eye of the Beholder 2 and Star Control 2, both over 20 hours



$5 for 45 minutes is still a rip-off

#87
Eternale

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KadivyaSky wrote...

mrmike, they already probably /are/ working on these other projects. They have only so many resources. We know they are working on Dragon Age: Awakening. We do not know what else they are working on, and what their overhead is, nor do we know how much royalties are being paid out, if any. It could be that they've had to hire extra resources just to do the additional content between games, or the same team is working on all projects.

If you consider that most games on the shelves are only 10+ hours of gameplay, and sell for the same price as DA:O, you realize how much of a gift Bioware gave their playerbase in 'extra for no cost'. If you think of it that way, it's really that those that don't value the current DLC may not realize how generous Bioware has already been to its customers in included content.

Think of it this way...if you got 60 hours of gameplay out of DA:O, you got 50 more hours of gameplay for your buck than another company would give you for the same amount of money. 50 hours 'free' to play and enjoy. A gift. They didn't have to provide so much for so 'little' by comparison, but they did. So now we're having to pay a little for their additional content? I don't see a problem with it. I'm glad for the gift I was given at the outset.


Actually, they did have to provide us with "so much for so little by comparison" otherwise the game inevitably would not have sold as well.  Quality, in the form of length or otherwise was an expectation when people shelled out money for this game.  It's not a gift, it's why we paid for it.

#88
squid5580

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TheDrunkenPanda wrote...

Gotta say, this is sort of reminding me of Bethseda and their DLC shenanigans...


No definitely not. When Bethesda released thier broken DLC on the 360 they had the courtesy not to break the rest of the game with the patch.

Lets face it. All the top guys are working on things that will bring in real money. They just promoted Scruffy the Janitor to work on the RTO and patches.

#89
KadivyaSky

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Eternale, Army of 2 ...took approximately 5 and a half hours to beat. It cost as much, if not more, than DA:O. Divinity II took about 14 hours for me to beat and is an RPG. As for the reasons people shelled out money for the game, is variable. I was drawn to it by the trailer, and I didn't think much on how many hours I was going to be able to spend on it as much as it looked interesting so I bought it. People buy things for different reasons.

#90
squid5580

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KadivyaSky wrote...

mrmike, they already probably /are/ working on these other projects. They have only so many resources. We know they are working on Dragon Age: Awakening. We do not know what else they are working on, and what their overhead is, nor do we know how much royalties are being paid out, if any. It could be that they've had to hire extra resources just to do the additional content between games, or the same team is working on all projects.

If you consider that most games on the shelves are only 10+ hours of gameplay, and sell for the same price as DA:O, you realize how much of a gift Bioware gave their playerbase in 'extra for no cost'. If you think of it that way, it's really that those that don't value the current DLC may not realize how generous Bioware has already been to its customers in included content.

Think of it this way...if you got 60 hours of gameplay out of DA:O, you got 50 more hours of gameplay for your buck than another company would give you for the same amount of money. 50 hours 'free' to play and enjoy. A gift. They didn't have to provide so much for so 'little' by comparison, but they did. So now we're having to pay a little for their additional content? I don't see a problem with it. I'm glad for the gift I was given at the outset.


Except that 90% of those 10 hour titles have multiplayer which can last far longer than 50 hours.

#91
mrmike_1949

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KadivyaSky wrote...

Eternale, Army of 2 ...took approximately 5 and a half hours to beat. It cost as much, if not more, than DA:O. Divinity II took about 14 hours for me to beat and is an RPG. As for the reasons people shelled out money for the game, is variable. I was drawn to it by the trailer, and I didn't think much on how many hours I was going to be able to spend on it as much as it looked interesting so I bought it. People buy things for different reasons.


KadivyaSky
you need to stop wasting your money on such crappy games:whistle:! Sounds like most of those games would have been in the bargin bin 2 or 3 months after release. Then $10 for 10 hours is OK

MikeK

#92
KadivyaSky

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squid5580 wrote...

KadivyaSky wrote...

mrmike, they already probably /are/ working on these other projects. They have only so many resources. We know they are working on Dragon Age: Awakening. We do not know what else they are working on, and what their overhead is, nor do we know how much royalties are being paid out, if any. It could be that they've had to hire extra resources just to do the additional content between games, or the same team is working on all projects.

If you consider that most games on the shelves are only 10+ hours of gameplay, and sell for the same price as DA:O, you realize how much of a gift Bioware gave their playerbase in 'extra for no cost'. If you think of it that way, it's really that those that don't value the current DLC may not realize how generous Bioware has already been to its customers in included content.

Think of it this way...if you got 60 hours of gameplay out of DA:O, you got 50 more hours of gameplay for your buck than another company would give you for the same amount of money. 50 hours 'free' to play and enjoy. A gift. They didn't have to provide so much for so 'little' by comparison, but they did. So now we're having to pay a little for their additional content? I don't see a problem with it. I'm glad for the gift I was given at the outset.


Except that 90% of those 10 hour titles have multiplayer which can last far longer than 50 hours.


They can last for far longer than 50 hours, this is true. But so can DA:O if you play more than one character. One person's 60 minutes can translate into another person's 600 minutes. If you go by what IS possible versus the face value, it still comes out to a gift either way.

#93
KadivyaSky

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

KadivyaSky wrote...

Eternale, Army of 2 ...took approximately 5 and a half hours to beat. It cost as much, if not more, than DA:O. Divinity II took about 14 hours for me to beat and is an RPG. As for the reasons people shelled out money for the game, is variable. I was drawn to it by the trailer, and I didn't think much on how many hours I was going to be able to spend on it as much as it looked interesting so I bought it. People buy things for different reasons.


KadivyaSky
you need to stop wasting your money on such crappy games:whistle:! Sounds like most of those games would have been in the bargin bin 2 or 3 months after release. Then $10 for 10 hours is OK

MikeK


I agree. But if the game looks interesting, it's still usually a better value than paying 15 bucks + gas to drive to a movie theatre for entertainment with no replayability. Books are more entertaining too, and I've been reading a lot as well these days. But Divinity II looked interesting, but for me had no replayability. Fallout 3 was interesting but I did not finish it; it got a bit boring for me after a while. The story didn't draw me in as much? I've recently picked up Fallout 3's Game of the Year edition to see if I could rekindle interest with all the new content and I can't even get the second disk to be recognized...talk about problematic. Every company has its share of glitches apparently when they try to release stuff. 

But anyway, yeah, I do try to get quality entertainment. Dragon Age: Origins has been hands down the best RPG or even regular game I've played in a very long time. It's like reading a great book or watching a wonderful movie (or both), only with the ability to choose different protagonists' options + choose your own adventure style play. The replayability has been incredible and each time there's new stuff to keep me drawn in. Different angles. I was surprised how much entertainment time I got out of one title, and how eager I've been to keep trying all the options, to finish all the achievements, and so forth. Others may feel they deserved the 60+ hours they got when they bought the title, but if I can get more than 10 hours out of any title these days and still enjoy it after? That's a gift.

At this time I have 8 characters running for variety, 3 of which I've done complete runthroughs, several are in various stages along the way. Some men, some women, different romance options, different playstyles. I admit I'm frothing at the bit to get my hands on RtO, points in hand, for when it's finally released for real...but in the meantime I still have a great deal of gameplay ahead of me.

Modifié par KadivyaSky, 15 janvier 2010 - 06:54 .


#94
CptPatch

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Alphakiller wrote...
and yet here in california, the minimum one can get paid for just one hour of work is $8.
which translates to $4 for 30 minutes of time.

don't you think people going through all the effort of programming the game should get paid more than minimum wage? i'd think in that way, it should be far more than a 25% bonus, because it takes a lot of effort to design these kinds of things.

i'm quite happy that i'm not being forced to pay more than $5, and even more thankful that the game didn't cost me as much to play as I would have made working in the same amount of time.

HAD to jump in here right now.  If somebody else addressed this already, sorry for any repetition.

You're using some REALLY fuzzy math there, AK.  It isn't just ONE person paying for that programming.  It's over 100,000.  Times $5 = $500,000, for 30 minutes of playtime.  Further, a LOT of the graphics are already "in the can", so for much of that 30 minutes of playtime, the necessary code has _already_ been written.  Even if the programmers were paid $100/hour, BW & EA would be sucking in over $400K of **profit**.  (Yeah, yeah, there's other overhead as well.  We're still talking >$100-200K.)

#95
CptPatch

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TheMadCat wrote...
I see a lot of maybes, supposes, and hypothetical's in your post there. You also seem to derive a lot of stuff that is very subjective in nature, value of entertainment based products cannot be classified and examined solely from a longevity point of view. Really your posting your worst nightmare rather then basing things off of facts.

Here's my problem with your idea. Businesses are always there to maximize their business, to maximize profits through peak pricing. If what you were saying is indeed a direction the industry is heading don't you think we would have seen signs, trial runs, things of that nature. Don't you think if this was indeed viable the thousands of marketing directors and business analysts in the industry whose sole job is to find to premier way to turn a profit without alienating the majority of their customer base would be pushing for this change and we would have seen something different rather then almost the same strategy for the past 7 years? Like I said your theory seems to revolve around your personal nightmare of a worst case scenario then any practicality.

I'm not thumping my chest here; just offering a bit of resume.

I've worked in and around the gaming industry most of my life.  I was working for the TSR Accounting Department during "the Early Days" around when D&D was transitioning to AD&D and the company was fanning out across a broad spectrum of other RPGs as well.  Back then, _everybody_ had input and got to see The Process in action.  Beyond TSR, I did creative work for Game Designers Workshop, FASA, Mayfair Games, Avalon Hill, and a score more of companies that you most likely never heard of.  Yes, these were all pre-videogames.  But trust me when I say that the House of Videogame RPGs was built on a foundation created by these boardgame and paper-and-pencil game companies.

Yes, businesses are out make money.  If they're NOT doing that, first and foremost, they have or will be going OUT of business.  (Saw that happen to a LOT of companies that were started by people "for the love of gaming".)  Eventually, companies that generate millions of dollars in _profit_ (not just revenue) learn that the way to get MORE profit is by A) having more money coming in, and B) less money being spent. 

For A, they become adept at Marketing.  Marketing sells you the idea, to the point that you have already mentally purchased the game long before you even touch the physical product.  [Honestly now: Everybody that had decided that you _would_ be buying the game before it actually released, raise your hand.  Everybody that pre-ordered OR purchased _on_ the release date, get your hands up there.  THAT shows you the power of Marketing.]

For B, how can they possibly NOT spend more money on voice-acting, programming, payroll, QA testing, playtesting, et al?  Well, gee, you have to have something to put inside to actually make the game.  And all those things have to be paid for.  What's left to be left out?

Redirect.  Thinking back, how long ago did you first hear about DLC?  For me, it was either late 2007 or early 2008.  I'm sure others may have heard of it further back -- but I'd wager that most of you only started to hear about it sometime in 2008/2009.  And _I_ have been around the industry all these years and DLC is pretty new to me.  As it is for a LOT of companies.  It started as a conduit for patches and updates.  Then for forum-level betatesting.  Then for in-game tweaks, like adding furniture and other graphic "windowdressing".  As a channel to sell modules, DLC is like in it's infancy.

THAT is why you haven't been seeing much in the way of obvious market research.  It's been waiting for the the really big companies like M$ to get interested enough in the gaming market to get involved.  The vast majority of smaller companies that are actually run by business amateurs whose idea of "market research" = "Guess and by gosh".

The thing about DLC is that it IS the wave of the future.  In this Internet world, it allows manufacturers to keep a LOT of their profit margin.  In the gaming industry, it was par for the course for a manufacturer to give distributors a 40-60% discount off of the retail price (who would in turn give retailers a 20-30% discount off of list).   This reduced the profit margin, but massively increased the sales volume.  Then add to that "lost" profit, the cost of packaging, manuals, printing, and transportation and a manufacturer was lucky to see 20-cents out of every dollar that a game sold for.

Enter Digital Sales.  NO cost for packaging.  No discount given to distributors.  NO cost for distribution.  Because now customers go directly to the manufacturers' websites, pay the full retail price, and download off of a master copy on a server.  The manufacturer saves soooooo much on this arrangement, it can afford to lower the price _some_, AND seriously pump up the Marketing budget -- which results in a HUGE increase for demand.

Now, all that remains is to ween consumers off of the psychological need to have a hard copy of the game materials that they can fondle late at night.  And the way to do that is to start selling smaller games that are followed by a parade of DLCs that you keep getting to flesh out your gaming experience.  How long will it take before we go from buying the core game in the store and then adding 4, 5, 6, 7 more DLCs to go with it, to getting to, "Heck, I might as well just download the core game as well.  I'll be sure to get it ON the day it releases, I'll save on the sales tax, and I'll get to playing it that much sooner"?

If any of you have followed events surrounding EA, you'll probably intuitively understand that it is most likely the REAL culprit in this DAO soap opera.  BioWare was originally, and probably still is a company created by and operated by gamers.  And like nearly all gamer-run companies, content was a REAL high priority.  But as the cost of production starts getting into the tens of millions of dollars, those gamer-run companies simply can NOT go it alone.  So a moneylender appears and fronts the cost of development.  The price that is paid is that the developer (BW) starts to have to dance to the tune of the publisher (EA).  "You _will_ release by this date.  No, you can NOT have that nice, but unprofitable resource.  No, you can NOT add this neat feature."  Etc.  "You take our money, you follow our 'advice'."  And as I have alluded earlier, if you've tracked EA, you'll see that their products seem to be having less bang for the buck, and they've been down-sizing the creative elements of the companies they control like crazy.  It is also why soooo many games are being released that still have a LOT of major bugs kicking around.  "You can fix that with a patch.  We need the cashflow NOW!"

Anyway, the last element [this is where you say, "It's about time!"] is that having created a detailed framework of game engine and "canned" graphics, the way you milk a LOT more money out of a game is to keep adding content.  And the most profitable way to market that additional content is via DLC.  Having examined DAO extensively, I can pretty much guarantee you that BW has already blocked out most of the framework for DA2, DA3, and DA4.  Along with those, are probably 2 expansion packs each.  All that is necessary to make those happen is to demonstrate that there is a large enough ongoing interest to make production VERY profitable.  Which is to say,

HOW MUCH IS _YOUR_ ABSOLUTE BREAKING POINT to be allowed to play a frequently refreshed DAO?  You've already spent $50-60 to get started.  How much more can they squeeze out of you before you say, "To hell with it!" and go off to play something else?

#96
weyrleader

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Wow! Amazing what $5 can do to someone. Thing is, it's your choice to get the add-on. Nobody's holding the gun. Doesn't truly affect the original game or stoyline much (except for adding 15-60 minutes). Don't think it's worth it? Don't get it. God I love the freedom of choice!

#97
KadivyaSky

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EA is also the company that does the SIMS and has the microtransaction market realized by this time. They'll nickel and dime you to death. Like I mentioned before, I am curious how soon it'll be till we can buy special armor, weapons, even 'decorate Warden's Peak' furnishings and whatnot to purchase. I don't know if they'll go that far but they do understand the allure of a microtransaction. So many would perhaps  think ..."a quarter? fifty cents? sure, I'll buy that neat shiny crossbow that does a bit more damage than anything else in game. Let's start buying up points for better gear!" Not to mention the fact that they've already tied in-game item allure to tangible goods (like the t-shirt) as well. Buy x and get a bit of digital y with it!

Overally, I don't mind microtransactions, personally, the same way as I don't mind DLC. They keep the current projects supported longer, and keep the entertainment factor 'fresh'. Maybe they're a bit annoying after a while depending on selection and choices, but such is life.

Modifié par KadivyaSky, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:50 .


#98
TheMadCat

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Very long post, good read but filled with quite a bit of fluff. A few things I'll pick at.

Redirect.  Thinking back, how long ago did you first hear about DLC?  For me, it was either late 2007 or early 2008.  I'm sure others may have heard of it further back -- but I'd wager that most of you only started to hear about it sometime in 2008/2009.  And _I_ have been around the industry all these years and DLC is pretty new to me.  As it is for a LOT of companies.  It started as a conduit for patches and updates.  Then for forum-level betatesting.  Then for in-game tweaks, like adding furniture and other graphic "windowdressing".  As a channel to sell modules, DLC is like in it's infancy.


The idea of DLC has been around since the turn of the last decade. A lot of small indie games and the rise of F2P MMO's sort of gave birth to what we now call DLC as they went and explored other ways to generate revenue as they couldn't compete with the big boys that were starting to blossom into the giants we know/knew today due to the massive technology shifts. So the games themselves would be cheap as hell or even free and they would sell you little packs of items or other misc. things for a dollar or two. So the principle idea of DLC has been around for a long time now. Arguably the first big game to bring it to the mainstream was Oblivion back in early '06.

THAT is why you haven't been seeing much in the way of obvious market research.  It's been waiting for the the really big companies like M$ to get interested enough in the gaming market to get involved.  The vast majority of smaller companies that are actually run by business amateurs whose idea of "market research" = "Guess and by gosh".


MS has been interested since it first began developing the Xbox which has been quite a few years now, Sony and Nintendo long before that and with respect to market share there were plenty of "big" companies back in the late 80's and 90's venturing for ways to grow. So I fail to see any relevant point here as your saying no big company has been in gaming until the last few years which isn't true at all.

The thing about DLC is that it IS the wave of the future.  In this Internet world, it allows manufacturers to keep a LOT of their profit margin.  In the gaming industry, it was par for the course for a manufacturer to give distributors a 40-60% discount off of the retail price (who would in turn give retailers a 20-30% discount off of list).   This reduced the profit margin, but massively increased the sales volume.  Then add to that "lost" profit, the cost of packaging, manuals, printing, and transportation and a manufacturer was lucky to see 20-cents out of every dollar that a game sold for.


I agree completely, and can argue it is a necessity for game prices to remain at a status quo. With launch budgets reaching 9 figures for your average AAA title it becomes harder and harder to turn a profit in retail with prices as they are, prices haven't changed since the average launch budget for an AAA title was $15m-$30m. The amount of money thrown at some of these projects is disgusting, CoD MW2 just had a $200m launch budget. So in a sense with a way the industry operates at the moment DLC is more of a necessity to make profit then simply milking a product to puff up the bonuses.  

Now, all that remains is to ween consumers off of the psychological need to have a hard copy of the game materials that they can fondle late at night.  And the way to do that is to start selling smaller games that are followed by a parade of DLCs that you keep getting to flesh out your gaming experience.  How long will it take before we go from buying the core game in the store and then adding 4, 5, 6, 7 more DLCs to go with it, to getting to, "Heck, I might as well just download the core game as well.  I'll be sure to get it ON the day it releases, I'll save on the sales tax, and I'll get to playing it that much sooner"?


So to ween customers of their attachment and preference towards hard copies you sell smaller games? How the hell does that make sense? DD is the future, and its a great future for both the consumer and the developer/publisher and once the next leap in communications and networking technology is made in the next few years it'll hold the majority of the market share over the brick and mortar. But to coincide DD with the switch to what you see in the future is silly. It can be done just as easily with a hard copy at a brick and mortar.

Anyway, the last element [this is where you say, "It's about time!"] is
that having created a detailed framework of game engine and "canned"
graphics, the way you milk a LOT more money out of a game is to keep
adding content.  And the most profitable way to market that additional
content is via DLC.  Having examined DAO extensively, I can pretty much
guarantee you that BW has already blocked out most of the framework for
DA2, DA3, and DA4.  Along with those, are probably
2 expansion packs each.  All that is necessary to make those happen is
to demonstrate that there is a large enough ongoing interest to make
production VERY profitable.  Which is to say,


This is not some new revelation here. The reason DLC was born was to bring in "additional profits" and they do a damn fine job as is. I'm not sure what you mean when you said that you "examined DA:O extensively" but I'm sure they have a roadmap planned out for the next 4 or 5 years, many companies do, they always have. I don't see how this coincides with your notion that a major shift is development and marketing is going to occur, the industry has been at a status quo for most of this decade and during this times gaming has boomed into a major industry and billion dollar companies have come to birth from it. Profits continue to be record breaking by following the same formula, do you make such a sudden and dratic shift despite the fact you are already at a level of success. At the moment no because it's not needed.

HOW MUCH IS _YOUR_ ABSOLUTE BREAKING POINT to be allowed to play a
frequently refreshed DAO?  You've already spent $50-60 to get started. 
How much more can they squeeze out of you before you say, "To hell with
it!" and go off to play something else?


My absolute breaking point? When I can no longer afford PC gaming as a hobby then I have been broken. For $50 I've gotten about 100 hours of play with many more hours to go. Should I have felt my breaking point here? I don't think so.


Let me tell you why I don't see this happening. This is the EXACT same song and dance I heard when expansions were starting to become all the rage. Lots of ideas about how they'd start selling half games for full price and sell you the other half and rake in an extra $20-$30, about how we'd have to buy 5 versions just to get the full game. Oddly enough these days all I hear are cries for the expansion to make a return. So if history has anything to teach me, it's to not listen to theories based solely on paranoia and untrust.

DLC is still in it's infancy to the majority of gamers, this is a new and unexplored area that due to humanities automatic distrust for companies they all assume the worse. I've been around this block before and I've come back around so I see no reason to assume why my second time around will be any different when the best evidence you site is assumption based on what you hope you know.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 15 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .


#99
Lord Phoebus

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With me the issue with DLC is the value for money relative to other gaming media. If you look at DA:O say 50$ for 80 hours of content, relative to DLC 5$ for 0.5 hours of content. Now it isn't just 50/80 vs. 5/0.5. For the original game they had to build development tools, the engine, animations, textures, etc, that they don't need to recreate for the DLC. For something like RTO they can even use the original maps as a basis point. So that 0.5 hours of content probably took 1/5th the work of the average half-hour from the original game. So if we look at the relative profit they make from a unit of DLC relative to the base game its: 5/(0.5*.2):50/80 or roughly 80 to 1. If we assume that 20% of the people that own the game buy the DLC, then that's roughy 16 times the return on investment from DLC relative to the main game. So obviously EA/Bioware wants to make as much DLC as possible.



For the consumer it's a total rip off. You might argue it's only the price of a cup of coffee, but that's not the issue. The issue is the value per dollar, it's like someone selling you a dollar coin for the vending machine for 5$. Sure it's only 5$, but you could have had 5 candy bars for the same amount instead of one, if you had 5 1 dollar coins instead of a single bill.



Consumers should never care for a company or consider what is good value for them, the company doesn't make the same considerations when dealing with the consumer. It's a real shame that bargaining is a lost art in the west.

#100
Stanley Woo

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The latest information we've posted regarding Return to Ostagar is in this Sticky thread.



End of line.