354 réponses à ce sujet

[Clips7]

I have a question...is there some sort of cooldwon for the juggys heavy melee....it seems i can be tanking a prime or praetorian..then it seems like i can't heavy melee. He ends up doing the light melee.

Sometimes it ends up with me using a ops pack or even dying..i admit i'm not that great with him yet..i don't really play him like that, but i thought at the very least, that i had the basics down with him, in terms of actually destroying things and heavy melee when necessary.

[Maurader Sackboy]

Clips7 wrote...
I have a question...is there some sort of cooldwon for the juggys heavy melee....it seems i can be tanking a prime or praetorian..then it seems like i can't heavy melee. He ends up doing the light melee.

Definitely.  I found the best way to melee the bigger enemies is to: position yourself somewhere where you can back up a few steps.  Then:  melee until timer runs out, take a step or two back while throwing a pulse, shoot if possible, melee again.  I also try to get a flaming turret in there if possible.

Modifié par Maurader Sackboy, 04 avril 2013 - 02:28 .

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

I hope one of the PUGs I just played with will get a chance to read this thread someday. He built himself a box of shame just behind the landing zone in London.

It was embarrassing to watch.

[THOUGHTBLUDGEON]

Aside from my one extraction as a Talon Merc (spamming Mines) in platinum, I use my Juggernaut now.  I’ve tried with and without shield.  I’ve found the shield, while I think helpful, is annoying to my squadmates, so I dropped it.  I now run damage flame turret, reduction siege pulse, weapon damage, and survivability.  I have a primary job in platinum – tie up sync-killing enemies.  Secondary job - draw enemy fire during objectives.  Otherwise, just shoot, avoid being killed, try not to be a burden to the team, try to be an asset.  I don’t top the boards, but I’ll beat that shield restoring volus any day!  (But he’s the most important person on the team if you ask me).
 
I’ve only been playing a few weeks – but I’ve got a handful of platinum extractions under my belt now.

[ShdwPlayer]

Just have to say that preventing damage is indeed better than healing it off. TBH with smart play I didn't even find myself needing to drop the hex shield all the time. Used it mostly to block off shots from artillery units if they had line of sight or maybe a bunch of soldier/captain class mooks.

Original Post's Build is really awesome. And the juggernaut itself is ridiculously fun to play. Drawing the aggro of sync-killers and other heavier enemies and just "dancing" around them never gets old

[Tatsumaki]

Hey Mega, thanks again for a wonderful and insightful build. I admit that I was pure tank build previously but found that if team mates didn't have sufficient DPS (especially during objective waves) tanking doesn't jack squat. Still experimenting with your new build. I run him with Typhoon 5 and Reegar 10.

Took a bit of trial and error to deploy the shield so that it won't be a hindrance to team mates (Gotta deploy it slightly 'left' of 'where you want the Right Hand Advantage Cover" to be) if that makes sense.

Overall I'm doing more damage than usual and actually having more fun

[Rusty Ey3]

Pretty good guide. I myself build similiar build and use Typhoon. Need to do lil changes and then play. Thanks OP you really made Juggernaut Begineers day a lot better.

[megabeast37215]

Glad to hear you folks like it : )

Makes my day in fact.

[El Franko]

I don't see why the turret is redundant in a bad way. Heals, and does FEs with the shield. Best build I had was 66644. Shock shield with 10% damage. Turret - heal, armor, flame. SP- damage, reduction, and the one that does 60% to everything. passives capacityfor cooldowns and SP. Shields on Fitness.

Worked well with all the guns mentioned in the guide. Basically shot and SP crowds and everythibg from a far. Then burn, explode, shot, shock everything up close. Only melee briefly, and redeploy turret to keep healing on the go.

One thing I can't agree with is the big shield. It does more harm than good especially with caster teammates and whoever can't pierce. since I need to deploy the shield in tight situations it is not helpful to have a big thing blocking randomly my teams offense. Plus the 10% helps everything i do more than the big shield.

I think everything else besides that is preference and I keep switching builds all the time, so I think there are a lot of builds that can work DPS wise.

[shards7]

I like using the hex as a weapon...Its a good stagger against mooks if you are focusing on bigger prey. Now, i know what the hex shield is for, and i use it that way as well, but i feel while kiting a few hexes can kill a few pesky husks as you are firing at a brute at a distance (see mega's like last phrase or something, brutes suck with juggy)

Idk, it works for me and ive solo plat'ed geth, collectors and reapers with him for lulz. Disagree if you want i dont care.

5/6/3/6/6 build. I still like even the smallest amount of turrent, not so much for the shields, but more times than i can remember it staggered a few enemies when times got tough, as well as making sure banshee barriers dont regen while getting ammo lol. Edit: also a good few banshees warped my turrent a good few times, and i noticed it usually just passes right through it...i didnt hit me is all im saying...

Whatever lol

Modifié par jamesbrown3, 16 avril 2013 - 08:41 .

[masleslie]

Finally it's like the light has dawned!
People are realizing Juggy can be a damage dealer.

A lot of interesting ideas & useful advice from OP.

Personally I pretty much spam Siege Pulse to lay waste the bad guys. Especially on open maps or ones where you can see most of the map from one position like Hydra, Dagger, Jade etc. SP can target enemies in cover on the other side of the map offsetting the slow movement speed. People used to describe ballistic blades as a 'shotgun with a cooldown', think of SP as a sniper rifle with a cooldown.

I tend to prefer the Lancer as you don't have any ammo issues. Using it intermittently between SP barrages you never get to the annoying out of ammo reload animation & it packs quite a punch.

Hex shield is invaluable for those awkward moments when a ravager gets the drop on you out of cover. Place HS between you & the incoming, count the 3 shots, step to the side & unload SP on it.

I do use the turret, but for flamethrower not healing. You can set the turret a good distance away, which can let you attack enemies in rooms or round corners where you have no line of sight for SP & which you couldn't walk to before your squad has already got there.

I look forward to seeing more aggressive Juggys out there!

[shards7]

But it was always a damage dealer, its people not on the forums/pugs that play him as a crappy trash can. Good build, i shall try it out

[megabeast37215]

Updated with video thread.

[pedal2metal]

In general, I agree with some of the principles that megabeast discusses in the video such as:
1. The shield is a unique tactical tool that can be used in any circumstance. Learn to use it effectively. It's great to protect againt Atlas, Prime, Ravager fire & Geth Pyro flames. It's also good to provide a good break in the action, assuming you have a short enough delay for your Jug shields (not the hex shield, the character shields) to allow them to recharge successfully.
2. Bring something other than a shotgun & shoot things at range when you can.
3. Learn to use the Jug intelligently, not just blindly. This requires skill & practice as a tank too, not just a roaming gun. There are a lot of poor players who use the Jug but this applies to all classes imo. It takes real time to learn how to play a character most effectively, for any class.
4. If you aren't going to play to the Jug's strengths (survivability), then yes, evo 6 on Hardened Platform is not as useful as getting a 3 bar turret. That being said, evo 6 Power Transfer is more targeted to the Jug's strengths.

However, megabeast's build does not play to the Juggernaut's strengths (it does match his preferences though) & will underperform in lots of situations such as: soloing gold/platinum on a small map such as Glacier (sorry, this build isn't going to do it most likely), your entire team goes down (similar situation to soloing), duoing with a weak teammate., you get swarmed due to circumstances In other words, megabeast has sacrificed survivability for 15% weapons damage increase. This isn't a good tradeoff imo. Per megabeast's own words as he says he can't go fast around the map so he tends to stay in a certain area. He assumes he has a good team. The truth is with a good team, you can play any build & do fine. The fact is it's clear he prefers guns & shooting things (just listen to the video) so therefore he sets up the Jug accordingly. That's fine but it's definitely not a strong Juggernaut as far as the character itself goes although it may mesh very well with his playstyle & skill.
What I don't agree with:
1. That having a higher score is more important than ensuring your team extracts. Implied in the video & his tone. Sorry, but there is no "I" in team. I don't care what your score is if the team doesn't extract. Extraction comes first, points come second. Period. Similar BS argument for criticizing volus players. If they help the team extract successfully, they did their job. It's all pointless anyhow since all XP/gold is shared so it's just ego talking.
2. By sacrificing 1500 shield, megabeast doesn't follow through on the very points he makes about slow speed. & the 40% DR of siege pulse. A Juggernaut can't escape from a bunch of enemies swarming him because of this speed disadvantage & no ability to take cover (hence why the shield is useful). So now, you've just sacrificed his strongest advantage for 15% more weapons damage?!? Really? Again, megabeast talks about how the 40% DR from Siege Pulse increases one own's effective shields by a factor of Shields/.6 yet he doesn't analyze how giving up 1500 shields on the Jug is equivalent to 2500 shields. Additionally, he has traded heavy melee shield restoration from 925/s to 675/s. This is a difference of 250/s which is 37% less shield restoration per second. This drops one's survivability enormously in the swarm scenarios that often occur on gold & are simply unavoidable on platinum. Enemies, especially on a small map like glacier, will tend to run straight for the Jug & you simply aren't killing things quickly if your alone, no matter what gun you have although the Reegar is excellent, you've got to be close first. With normal characters you run away, regen your shields & start again. Not an option with Jug.

Anyhow, the -15% can be negated by running with a geth weapon & using damage evolution for the shield. I personally use Geth SMG X (w/HV barrel V + Extended Mag V) & Reegar X (Omni-blade V + extended Mag V). Here's how I run my Jug (non-glitched):

Hex Shield: 3
The shield's primary purpose is to provide situational cover. A 3 bar shield is more than sufficient to accomplish this & the bonuses to shield in Hardened Platform stack here too. The large shield is absolutely horrible & completely unnecessary. In fact, the moment I see a Jug player with the large shield, I generally assume they are either inexperienced using the Jug and/or prefer using weapons over heavy melee or both. Most teammates hate the big shield in most circumstances except for the 4 point objectives. Of course, an intelligent & considerate player can make the experience different but most big shield Jugs are simply terrible.

Siege Pulse: 6, same as megabeast for the same reasons. On gold/platinum, if you fire off your pulses & you're about to be swarmed, you're dead. You only fire if it's safe for about 10 seconds.

Geth Turret: 5, take lower evo which gives maximum shields. The turret is often blown up before 8 seconds but since the recharge is so low (2.13s with my weapon loadout), you can drop another one. The upside is the first charge for shields usually occurs in about 1s after initial deployment which ultimately yields an equivalent shield recharge rate to evo 6 (8/1.6 = 5s) while allowing you to invest 3 bars in hex shield for the tactical flexibility with no loss in turret functionality. Of course, it's a bit more micro management for the Jug player but that comes with experience on gold/platinum.

Geth Juggernaut: 6 bars, evo 4: up if you prefer weapons, down if you prefer to spam shield/turret, I've done both successfully but weapon damage probably has the edge for me.
evo 5: Stability & Ammo, this is so helpful with lots of weapon loadouts
evo 6: Weapon damage, the +5% for Geth weapons synergizes nicely with Geth SMG or Geth Spitfire (when I feel just blasting everything)

Hardened Platform: 6 bars, all lower evos, the 75% health/shield bonus combined with 925/s shield restoration combined with 40% DR from Siege Pulse are too synergistic to pass up & give you the ability to solo a wave when the occasional "oh sh*t" situation arises. However, it is important to keep moving & not get cornered as even with the tank build 2 Pyros if you don't see them can take down a Jug on Platinum virtually instantaneously.

Equipment-wise: I know a lot of people recommend cyclonic like megabeast & it's pretty good but again, the concept of synergy hasn't been thought through much. While having a large max shield is great, it assumes that you can regenerate it. If you can't, it's of no use. Also with this build, 4600 shield is plenty & with 40% DR, it's equivalent to 7666 shields. So what I like to do is to run with Stronghold Package V (shields are now 5000, or 8333 equivalent) & Shield Power Cell III. This combined with Hardened Platform (along with proper usage of your Hex Shield to utilize the opportunity to recharge your shields) give a shield recharge delay reduction of 12% + 15% + 30% = 57%. This is quite good & gets it around 2s. Now remember each point of shield restored takes 1.66 damage to take down. So the recharge approach is the most effective at synergizing with the Jug's tank ability. Using this setup, I can consistently get to wave 10 on glacier soloing gold & have successfully duoed glacier with an Asari Justicar (spec the biotic sphere for shield recharge gives another 15% which makes it 72% reduction), damage taken, & warp effect who had NEVER played the Asari Justicar before. I told him what to do, what gear to equip, & wala, we extracted 31:20 later. Yes, we had to use a few missiles in some touchy situations on the objective waves & 3 on extraction) but that's normal on platinum with a duo effort. We also got a bit lucky with the objectives in that 2 were target objectives (just let them come to us) & one was an escort. If we'd gotten a hack, or 4 object ones, might have been more difficult but the bubble for the Jug gives him enormous survivability & the Justicar can spam Reave to detonate the Warp Effect nicely. The 25% damage buf really helps & still provides another 20% DR for the Jug. I'm pretty sure megabeast's build could not duo glacier on Platinum using a complete first-timer on a character for a partner. The player had some platinum experience (roughly 1000 skill points) though.

In any case, obviously if one can extract from a small map with lots of swarming occurring like on Glacier with a 2-man team, it's even easier with more people. While it's true the Jug can be played lots of ways, I prefer to focus on ensuring we get to extraction so the build above lets me do that. If one does a glitched build then the Damage Synergy small shield is preferred over the large shield as it virtually completely negates the damage penalty & with a geth weapon, it does.  Turret-wise, I've done both Flamethrower and the increased frequency healing.  In my experience, the turret gets blown up pretty quickly so the flamethrower is more useful as it does a little damage & when the flame stops firing, you know you need another turret vs. having to hear the turret blow up (which is hard with all the crap going on in Platinum) or have a teammate let you know or check it explicitly, all of which require more micro management.  The turret is always a good distraction for far away enemies too, especially when they start getting shot/flamed from behind like guardians & can buy a litte more time, especially on large maps (Giant, Rio, etc...).

In my builds, I prefer to minimize risk & maximize my chances of extracting regardless of my teammates skill/experience since for me it's about getting credits for the time invested. Hence why I prefer a tank build to a "negate 15% damage penalty" build which doesn't seem very "Juggy" at all. Might as well play a true pure soldier like a Turian if you want that.

thanks & best regards...

Modifié par pedal2metal, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:29 .

[FuriousFelicia]

Glad to see people using the old threads to find answers.

[megabeast37215]

There are too many points for me to address at this time, but I will comment on one. Rank 6 fitness..

I don't need it because I always have a cyclonic if playing a weapons build. I also don't need it because if I'm running a power amp everything is dead from siege pulse. I never get swamped because I make things dead. If I did get swamped.. I'd use a missile.

[Moby]

Holy mother of text walls Batman.

Modifié par MofuggerX, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:34 .

[pedal2metal]

Yes, this is a good thread.

Agreed, you will have to use some missiles for sure. Yes, I already knew you use a cyclonic based on my recommendation for a Shield Amplifier.  However, I don't see avoiding stack ups occasionally while doing objective waves, depending upon the objective.  There is not making up 250/s shield transfer capability which is only a Jug intrinsic capability.  So the question is does this build guarantee that no stack-ups occur?  No, of course not.  They might not happen for you because you're an expert player but for the average joe, it's going to spell disaster as losing the 250/s shield transfer will absolutely hurt the average player a lot.  I'm sorry but it's simply mathematical fact that 15% weapon damage boost isn't going to change the Jug from a measly tank to a killing machine.

I personally don't think your build can solo Glacier on gold/platinum reliably (this is hard with a slow character on a small map). If it does, it just shows you're a great player, not that the build is great for soloing and/or helping the team the most effectively. The best test of a build is how an average player performs with the build, not a great player with tons of experience.

Run solo on Glacier on Gold/Platinum. Better yet, have an average player do it with your build & then with my build & see which one gets him further.

I take noobs through gold/platinum all the time for their first time on Glacier. That's a better test for a build, not taking 4 good players & running gold/platinum. Take 3 noobs & do it or just 1 noob & do it. That's a much better build test. I'm pretty sure an average player couldn't even get through wave 6 with this build on gold/platinum on a small map like glacier.

You're entitled to your preferences but 15% weapon damage isn't going to cause the Jug to become a "kill things dead" machine. It's 15%, not 150%. You're good with weapons so you prefer weapons damage but the fact you're a good player doesn't transfer to this being a good build for the average player.

thanks & best regards...

Modifié par pedal2metal, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:52 .

[Kislitsin]

How fast can your build clear glacier/cerbers/gold without missiles to shorten it?
What weapons?

Anything can solo anything, it's the time that matters.

[megabeast37215]

Soloing isn't a good test for anything.

Also.. it's not just losing 15% weapon damage.. it's power and melee damage too.

Modifié par megabeast37215, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:55 .

[Kislitsin]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Soloing isn't a good test for anything.

Anything isn't a good anything for anything.

He used the "solo point", I've pointed out that the fact of the solo barely matters in comparrison with the speed of the solo.

[pedal2metal]

Kislitsin wrote...

How fast can your build clear glacier/cerbers/gold without missiles to shorten it?
What weapons?

Anything can solo anything, it's the time that matters.

Anything can solo anything WITH a specific player.  However, anything can not solo anything with any player.  So the player makes the difference ultimately, not the character.  That little detail is usually left out.

I use Geth SMG X & Reegar X as mentioned in the post.  I don't have a solo time on Glacier for gold/platinum as I've only made to level 10 (also in the post) in past 2 attempts.  I duoed against Reaper enemies & it took 31:20 with a Jug & Asari Justicar using the above build.  As another metric of value, I'll offer the heavy melee setup will kill a Cerberus centurion on Gold with 1 application with either the Damage Evolution on the shield & shield deployed, a Juggernaut V equipped, or a Level 1 strength amplifier.  The Reegar is quicker of course but the dodging ability of the Cerberus agents is negated with the HM which is useful, especially on Nemesis (which megabeast recognized in his postings).  I typically save my Reegar ammo for larger bosses so I can clear them quickly & use it on smaller enemies only when an ammo box is in the very near vicinity.

The Jug will likely never be as quick as another class like an Infiltrator due to it's travel speed alone, assuming all other things were equal, which they aren't.  While one would believe that regaining 15% weapon damage makes it an enormous damage dealer based on this thread, the simple fact is, it doesn't.  It doesn't have any synergistic damage powers like tactical cloak for infiltrators, etc... so losing it's synergistic shield ability which synergizes nicely with 40% DR & faster shield recovery is not a good tradeoff.  If a player prefers this, that's fine but as far as build synergy goes, it's inferior.  Nothing keeps a Jug from shooting things other than the player so that's got nothing to do with the build.  That's a player skill/training issue, not a build issue.  On that point (the need for Jugs to shoot things), I agree with megabeast.  However, the solution isn't to change the Jug build to lose it's most unique synergizing skill.  It's to teach others how to play the Jug by playing with weaker players & helping them get gold/platinum extractions by showing them how to play a Jug more skillfully.  The fact remains that an unskilled player with a synergistic shield Jug that dies will simply die more quickly with a weapons-focused Jug.  It won't change the result whatsoever.

thanks & best regards...

Modifié par pedal2metal, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:18 .

[pedal2metal]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Soloing isn't a good test for anything.

Also.. it's not just losing 15% weapon damage.. it's power and melee damage too.

In general, I agree on the solo comment.  However, the Jug is the only true tank character in the game.  For a tank character, soloing IS the test that matters because you are a tank, a damage sponge.  Soloing provides the best opportunity to measure how well the tank can take damage effectively & still survive in the player's hands with no other team variables at work.  It can really help a Jug player know how to use the map, use the shield, the turret, it's weapons, learn the characteristics of each enemy type, etc... to maximize the Jug's effectiveness.

Yes, the 15% is for everything but I think you mentioned that you don't fire Siege Pulse in Platinum & the whole purpose of your build was to utilize weapons more not melee more.  So I reduced the discussion to the salient issue, rather than state what is already obvious in the description under Hardened Platform.

thanks & best regards...

Modifié par pedal2metal, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:15 .