354 réponses à ce sujet

[Max Dmian]

megabeast37215 wrote...

Max Dmian wrote...

I agree with this. I've come to like the large shield. More cover means less (in fact none, so spec out of it) Turret casting and more damage output. You should show it sometime, however. I think people should see that.

Maybe... If I'm lucky... someone will post a pic of the Big Shield and photoshop a little red circle around the < on it.
BSN pls...

I'm at work, and I can't do things like that here (I'm on my phone).

No red circle, but I'm shooting through it, if we're talking about the same thing.



Also - I prefer Geth Scanner on him. Gives me more awareness and time to adjust to enemies closing in.

[Dokteur Kill]

Pretty much the exact build I use, except I went for power transfer instead of squad command, and both carrying capacity upgrades in the Geth Juggernaut class passive. My philosophy is that what I lose in damage bonus, I gain from carrying heavier weapons, and with my build I can carry a PPR V and Claymore X and still have a good enough cooldown on hex shield that I can spam it when necessary.

I still manage to do decent damage, but admittedly I built the character more to carry a couple of friends of mine in gold and less to deal the absolute maximum amount of damage. Even without damage bonuses, a reload cancelled Claymore can dish out a fair bit of pain.

That said, I find that with enemies like banshees and brutes, it's often better to just keep meleeing them. Banshees in particular tend to stagger me enough that I don't get to shoot very often, whereas if I keep them occupied with melee, the rest of the team can take them down in short order. Contributing damage is always important, but for the juggernaut it's not necessarily the first priority.

[megabeast37215]

january42 wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...


While this is true.... Reegar/Piranha/Claymore/Raider/GPS can kill trooper class enemies instantly, and  kill shielded mooks either instantly or in less than 2 seconds.

No need to tank when everything is dead already.

I forgot to mention it, but one of the other modivations for making melee useful was to strech the ammo supply. Reegaring all the things runs you out in no-time and it can be hard to get back to a box(depends on the map). I find I get pretty good weapon damage with my Crusader. I will sometimes swap to short range shotgun on known maps however.   You pretty much need to keep moving as a juggy to keep up with your team.

That's true about the Reegar and it's ammo situation... and Juggy can run it dry pretty quick. That's why I recommended extra ammo on it... it turns that 22/88 into 22/191.... it last a lot longer, but then you HAVE to take AP ammo for it to be worth a crap vs bosses (Incendiary doesn't cut it IMO without both HVB & Shredder Mod).

Funny... I don't find myself moving around with him all that much. If enemies aren't close to me, I just switch to the Typhoon and shoot stuff across the map. I tend to roam around half of the map... and stay somewhat near an ammo box.

I do think the Crusader would be a good weapon for him... I'll probably try that later today.

[megabeast37215]

Max Dmian wrote...
No red circle, but I'm shooting through it, if we're talking about the same thing.



Also - I prefer Geth Scanner on him. Gives me more awareness and time to adjust to enemies closing in.

Yep... that's it.

Thanks a bunch Max. Now I can just say "the top of page 4" instead of describing what I mean with a <

[megabeast37215]

Dokteur Kill wrote...

Pretty much the exact build I use, except I went for power transfer instead of squad command, and both carrying capacity upgrades in the Geth Juggernaut class passive. My philosophy is that what I lose in damage bonus, I gain from carrying heavier weapons, and with my build I can carry a PPR V and Claymore X and still have a good enough cooldown on hex shield that I can spam it when necessary.

I still manage to do decent damage, but admittedly I built the character more to carry a couple of friends of mine in gold and less to deal the absolute maximum amount of damage. Even without damage bonuses, a reload cancelled Claymore can dish out a fair bit of pain.

That said, I find that with enemies like banshees and brutes, it's often better to just keep meleeing them. Banshees in particular tend to stagger me enough that I don't get to shoot very often, whereas if I keep them occupied with melee, the rest of the team can take them down in short order. Contributing damage is always important, but for the juggernaut it's not necessarily the first priority.

It is a great carry class if played right... very true.

When it comes to Banshees... after they start meleeing me, I know then that I have their aggro and the rest of the team is safe... so I back up and start Reegaring their face.

Wow... 32.5% weapon damage is a lot to give up... but I can see it working.

[JackieLee13]

While I agree with some points in the OP, I feel that Juggles offers quite a bit of variety in how he can be played and still be effective. Some people like the shield, others prefer the turret, and others like both.

The friends I play with don't like the large shield, so it's not a big deal to spec out of it. I've experimented with both offensive and defensive builds, and have always been pretty effective. I haven't hit on my favorite build yet, though, so I'm going to keep experimenting.

I find that it's mostly up to the player in how effective a juggernaut is. It doesn't matter if there is a "perfect" build for him, if the player can't use the Jugginator effectively, he or she won't be much help to the team. While I normally don't heavy melee the entire match, I've landed in PUG's that have required it... if no one else is dealing damage, the tank won't last very long.

[megabeast37215]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Thanks for telling me how to play effectively. Since there's only one way.

If you like playing the total tank who does piddly damage, and your friends are commited to shooting all the enemies off of you... more power to ya.

[John Connor M]

It should go without saying but I'd mention the amazing offensive ability of siege pulse, I've seen so many pugs spec into DR and 4 shots and just never ever fire. If you do the numbers you can get shots that do insane (~3000 against armour/barriers/shields) damage for what is essentially a cast and forget kind of thing that doesn't really get in your way and has a cooldown that is just right.

[megabeast37215]

JackieLee13 wrote...

While I agree with some points in the OP, I feel that Juggles offers quite a bit of variety in how he can be played and still be effective. Some people like the shield, others prefer the turret, and others like both.

The friends I play with don't like the large shield, so it's not a big deal to spec out of it. I've experimented with both offensive and defensive builds, and have always been pretty effective. I haven't hit on my favorite build yet, though, so I'm going to keep experimenting.

I find that it's mostly up to the player in how effective a juggernaut is. It doesn't matter if there is a "perfect" build for him, if the player can't use the Jugginator effectively, he or she won't be much help to the team. While I normally don't heavy melee the entire match, I've landed in PUG's that have required it... if no one else is dealing damage, the tank won't last very long.

That's true... he can be specced several ways and still be very effective, and it is largely player dependant.

This thread was more to illustrate that the Juggy can actually kill things instead of being solely a bullet sponge who contributes very little to overall damage output.

[KalilKareem]

megabeast37215 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Thanks for telling me how to play effectively. Since there's only one way.

If you like playing the total tank who does piddly damage, and your friends are commited to shooting all the enemies off of you... more power to ya.

Tbh, I have topped a bunch of pugs games with that piddly damage. Its still more damage than dead squad mates are doing

[megabeast37215]

John Connor M wrote...

It should go without saying but I'd mention the amazing offensive ability of siege pulse, I've seen so many pugs spec into DR and 4 shots and just never ever fire. If you do the numbers you can get shots that do insane (~3000 against armour/barriers/shields) damage for what is essentially a cast and forget kind of thing that doesn't really get in your way and has a cooldown that is just right.

Siege Pulse is awesome, I agree. Probably one of the Coolest powers to come out of Reckoning. I tend to use it more on Gold than on Platinum... where I really feel the need for the DR.

[january42]

That's true about the Reegar and it's ammo situation... and Juggy can run it dry pretty quick. That's why I recommended extra ammo on it... it turns that 22/88 into 22/191.... it last a lot longer, but then you HAVE to take AP ammo for it to be worth a crap vs bosses (Incendiary doesn't cut it IMO without both HVB & Shredder Mod).

Funny... I don't find myself moving around with him all that much. If enemies aren't close to me, I just switch to the Typhoon and shoot stuff across the map. I tend to roam around half of the map... and stay somewhat near an ammo box.

I do think the Crusader would be a good weapon for him... I'll probably try that later today.

Makes sense. Most of the people I play with are the "roving dethsquad" type, so I pretty much designed the build around staying mobile, providing long range support and guarding flanks and like. You pretty much need to keep moving, so I don't like going to ammo boxes more than I have to.  With the reegar I found myself getting left behind to much. GPS also works(and hey, free 5%), but it's more of a mid-range weapon.

If you can let the enemies come to you and stay near a box, the reegar would defintly be superior however.

[megabeast37215]

KalilKareem wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Thanks for telling me how to play effectively. Since there's only one way.

If you like playing the total tank who does piddly damage, and your friends are commited to shooting all the enemies off of you... more power to ya.

Tbh, I have topped a bunch of pugs games with that piddly damage. Its still more damage than dead squad mates are doing

I'm sure you could also top a bunch of PUG games with a Katana, no equipment and zero points in your powers because:

1: You're probably a good player
2: PUGs are PUGs

[iOnlySignIn]

megabeast37215 wrote...

It's useful in the sense that b/c it's so damn big... you can actually stand behind it and regen your shields naturally, and not rely on the pitiful amount of healing the turret provides. This allows you to keep shooting your gun, instead of spamming the turret 5 times to get fully healed.

It's a 'tactical advantage' and it requires a bit of finesse to maximize it's potential, while not screwing over the power spammers in the party. Also... the right hand advantage offered by the big shield is FAR superior to the right hand advantage offered by the small one. This is why:

With the small shield, your head/shoulders are exposed somewhat... with the big shield, there is a little indentation that is shaped like this: <

That little < is at the perfect height for right hand advantage, and it's even BETTER than regular right hand advantage on walls because you can get even father behind the protection.

I wish I could verbalize/describe it better... but I'd have to show you in game to clearly illustrate my point.

My main problem with Hex Shield is that its cooldown is very long if you want to carry a decent weapon setup. With your setup (Typhoon + Reegar) it has a 12.4 second cooldown, while the Turret has 7.75 second cooldown. Some setups (Spitfire/Javelin + Reegar/Claymore) will have even longer cooldowns.

This means, during that 12.4 seconds, you have to stay close to your Hex Shield. I find this to be a limit on my mobility - I prefer to still use actual solid cover whenever possible, instead of relying on Hex Shield.

With Turret, I will cast Turret into the nearest secure cover location (so that few or no enemy has LoS on it), and I am free to move around and still benefit from it (Restore Range). This will allow me to get into better positions - either to advance on the enemies, or to get into better (solid) cover. 

[january42]

John Connor M wrote...

It should go without saying but I'd mention the amazing offensive ability of siege pulse, I've seen so many pugs spec into DR and 4 shots and just never ever fire. If you do the numbers you can get shots that do insane (~3000 against armour/barriers/shields) damage for what is essentially a cast and forget kind of thing that doesn't really get in your way and has a cooldown that is just right.

I don't think this works sadly. Someone did the test and the 6b damage evolution isn't multiplicative like almost every other one of it's type  ,  so the damage actually isn't that great. I've actually considered swapping to the 4 shots because of this and for the extra DR.   

[Ultimas Dragon]

megabeast37215 wrote...

The reason I take Squad Command is simple... 15% total damage loss is completely unacceptable. You have enemies running up in your face often, you need the ability to blow their face off with a gun... a 15% gimping does not sound ideal.. wise use of Hex Shield will prevent you from missing the 75% shield increase. Also, your teammates are going to step into the 10% damage bonus radius eventually, especially if you're on the front line (which you should be).

I'm a little confused by what you have posted here, this does not match what Squad Command does in game.

Rank 6 SC
"All allies within 4 meaters do 10% more dmamage.
This bonus does not affect you.
Increase your melee damage by 30%."

Compared to Power Transfer
"Increase health and shield bonuses by 75%.
Increase shields restored by heavy melee by 50%.
Decrease all damage done by 15%."

Where is the 15% damage bonus you're speaking of?

Don't get me wrong I agree with the rest of the post and is how I have my Jugg speced and how I play him more or less.
But honestly SC seems to pale in comparison to PT on rank 6 of Hardened Platform.
a maybe 10% damage bonus to anyone with in 4 meters ( not very far) that doesn't affect you and a 30% melee damage bonus when you're advocating Not meleeing every thing in sight, seems conterdictory.
And even if you were meleeing every thing in sight like a krogan wantabe...PT still seems more appealing.

Forgive me if some one has pointed this out or if you corrected your self in a later post, I didn't bother reading every post in the thread.

[iOnlySignIn]

Perhaps you can show us a video of how you use the Hex Shield when there's more than 3 high DPS subbosses (such as Phantoms and Pyros) mobbing you. This is the only situation where I can't make the Turret work effectively, but where a Large Hex Shield might prove useful.

[pistolols]

I'm not one of the people "only meleeing" everything, but i do use it quite a bit with Juggs and i think you naysayers do not give it enough credit in terms of the risk free damage it can deal and how enjoyable that can be.  For that reason, i spec 4(a) for Melee in Fitness and strictly use melee gear (either hydraulic joints or Juggernaut Shields) & strength enhancer consumable along with a shotgun omni blade.  With these additions to melee damage taken into account, it can kill everything but the top tier bosses quite fast and gives a glorious little speed boost for every melee kill (fitness 5(a)).

megabeast37215 wrote...
Here's the first thing you need to know. The Turret is redundant. 

I'm wondering if you really have your mind made up or not.  I have seen you before heavily advocating the turret and not so much hex shield.   But i do agree and recognise that perhaps the Prime shots bug being fixed with the shield is what swayed your opinion.

megabeast37215 wrote...
Consumables I typically use: Cyclonic Modulator III for Gold, IV for Platinum, Stronghold Package V, Shotgun Rail Amp III, AP ammo III for Gold, IV for Platinum 

If a build needs a cyclonic modulator on Gold in order to be a good build, then it's not one i'm really interesting in using.  Just saying.  And personally i think Juggs is infinitely more enjoyable with an adrenaline module.

megabeast37215 wrote...
The reason I take Squad Command is simple... 15% total damage loss is completely unacceptable. 

Becomes somewhat a moot point if you take 6(a) on Hex shield instead.  Only a 5% loss then.  For me, Squad Command is an interesting choice because of the 30% buff to melee which by lacking the 15% loss is technically a 45% buff.

megabeast37215 wrote...
Weapons for Juggy: You need close and long range performance. 

If Siege Pulse wasn't a laggy piece of crap offhost, it'd function just fine as medium / almost long range solution.  Even still, i spec for power damge in the passive for when i'm host and pulse away.  For close range, it's gotta be a shotgun for the Omni Blade and it's hard to argue against the effenctivness of the Reegar especially on a character that isn't worried about sync kills.  And even without specing for weapon damage in the passive the reegar still does an amazing job melting things.

megabeast37215 wrote...
How to use the Hex Shield Effectively: This is not a spam power

Disagree.  In my experience, i gotta be able to drop that sucker down at a moments notice at all times.  And if  it burns out from too much damage, or if my teammates get to trollin' me like they always do and destroy it, then i gots to be able to drop it right back down again which btw is also keeping my 10% damage buff constant.  If you only taking the Reegar and specced for the weight capacity evos then it's no problem.


--Ultimately i think Juggs can be played any way one chooses and if they do it properly it will be successful.  He is hard to fail with.  The build you describe is not quite how i would use him but i know i could use him in that manner just fine.  The people that are only meleeing all things but not doing a great job at killing are clearly not maximizing the Juggs melee potential because the fact is i have scored top spot on gold numerous times when playing around with only using heavy melee / hex shield and never shooting a gun.  

I mean you talk about the 1 caveat to your build is having trouble with Brutes... a Juggs based around melee can just sit there draining them until they die and their attacks are simply not strong enough to keep up with his soul stealing.  And that is true for every boss except the Praetorian.  A Juggs built around melee can also melt a Phantom before the first HM drain cycle is even finished... less actions and just as fast if not faster than  your suggestion of "heavy melee their barriers off then when they drop to the ground, mop them up with your gun. "

Modifié par pistolols, 20 mars 2013 - 03:42 .

[megabeast37215]

january42 wrote...

That's true about the Reegar and it's ammo situation... and Juggy can run it dry pretty quick. That's why I recommended extra ammo on it... it turns that 22/88 into 22/191.... it last a lot longer, but then you HAVE to take AP ammo for it to be worth a crap vs bosses (Incendiary doesn't cut it IMO without both HVB & Shredder Mod).

Funny... I don't find myself moving around with him all that much. If enemies aren't close to me, I just switch to the Typhoon and shoot stuff across the map. I tend to roam around half of the map... and stay somewhat near an ammo box.

I do think the Crusader would be a good weapon for him... I'll probably try that later today.

Makes sense. Most of the people I play with are the "roving dethsquad" type, so I pretty much designed the build around staying mobile, providing long range support and guarding flanks and like. You pretty much need to keep moving, so I don't like going to ammo boxes more than I have to.  With the reegar I found myself getting left behind to much. GPS also works(and hey, free 5%), but it's more of a mid-range weapon.

If you can let the enemies come to you and stay near a box, the reegar would defintly be superior however.

Don't get me wrong... I don't camp with him... I just don't usually have to go far to find LOS of enemies, then I can start shooting them with the Typhoon, and switch to the Reegar up close.

Having two really powerful weapons helps with the 'slow to the ammo box' situation... as does taking a PPR/Lancer instead of the Typhoon.

[jcamdenlane]

This seems effective, but out in the wilds of randomland, I think I would prefer a juggy that just drew in enemies to be murdered by the rest of the team over one that was trying to keep up, offensively. If that means they're spamming heavy melee and not really shooting, than so be it. If they're still upright, we're all going to win.

[Dokteur Kill]

megabeast37215 wrote...
It is a great carry class if played right... very true.

When it comes to Banshees... after they start meleeing me, I know then that I have their aggro and the rest of the team is safe... so I back up and start Reegaring their face.

Wow... 32.5% weapon damage is a lot to give up... but I can see it working.

Well, damage is more than just burst DPS.

No, that build isn't a particularly great build for doing a lot of damage quickly (unless I let off a full barrage of siege pulses, which helps), and it's a bit pants for dealing with swarms of mooks. But one of the nice things about it is that it's resilient enough that I very rarely need to stop firing to regenerate my shields. I can generally do moderate damage almost continuously, switching from PPR at range (and basically being resistant enough to incoming fire that I can safely ignore it) to alternating between heavy melee and Claymore once enemies get up close.

And of course, my teammates do correspondingly more damage for the same reason. Since the enemies focus on me, they can keep firing when they'd otherwise have to hide behind cover and regen shields.

And yeah, I don't have any problems backpedaling and giving a banshee a faceful of claymore shot while she misses her melee attack, but it's situational. In a hack circle, for example, just standing there as a roadblock and leaving the damage dealing to the rest of the team can work wonders.

[megabeast37215]

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...[/quote]
My main problem with Hex Shield is that its cooldown is very long if you want to carry a decent weapon setup. With your setup (Typhoon + Reegar) it has a 12.4 second cooldown, while the Turret has 7.75 second cooldown. Some setups (Spitfire/Javelin + Reegar/Claymore) will have even longer cooldowns.

This means, during that 12.4 seconds, you have to stay close to your Hex Shield. I find this to be a limit on my mobility - I prefer to still use actual solid cover whenever possible, instead of relying on Hex Shield.

With Turret, I will cast Turret into the nearest secure cover location (so that few or no enemy has LoS on it), and I am free to move around and still benefit from it (Restore Range). This will allow me to get into better positions - either to advance on the enemies, or to get into better (solid) cover. 

[/quote]

Ohh I don't solely use the Hex Shield as my only cover... I still RHA on walls/doors like normal. I don't mind the long cooldown b/c it's my only cooldown (I use Siege Pulse sparingly)... and If I feel the need for another shield in that time, I probably need to start thinking about back-pedaling to a new position.

I'm not advocating that you shoud be tied to the shield at all times... just when there is a bunch of nasty incoming fire, or you need to isolate a boss, or regen your own shields out in the open.

[Lathlaer]

What you probably didn't mention is that when you are using reegar, you can afford -15% damage from power transfer. I duo'd platinum several times with my brother with two juggernauts and not once did we exceed 25 minutes completion time.

Modifié par Lathlaer, 20 mars 2013 - 03:46 .

[Dokteur Kill]

Ultimas Dragon wrote...
I'm a little confused by what you have posted here, this does not match what Squad Command does in game.

Rank 6 SC
"All allies within 4 meaters do 10% more dmamage.
This bonus does not affect you.
Increase your melee damage by 30%."

Compared to Power Transfer
"Increase health and shield bonuses by 75%.
Increase shields restored by heavy melee by 50%.
Decrease all damage done by 15%."

It's right there.

Picking Power Transfer (instead of squad command) makes you lose 15% damage.

[megabeast37215]

Ultimas Dragon wrote...
Where is the 15% damage bonus you're speaking of?

Don't get me wrong I agree with the rest of the post and is how I have my Jugg speced and how I play him more or less.
But honestly SC seems to pale in comparison to PT on rank 6 of Hardened Platform.
a maybe 10% damage bonus to anyone with in 4 meters ( not very far) that doesn't affect you and a 30% melee damage bonus when you're advocating Not meleeing every thing in sight, seems conterdictory.
And even if you were meleeing every thing in sight like a krogan wantabe...PT still seems more appealing.

Forgive me if some one has pointed this out or if you corrected your self in a later post, I didn't bother reading every post in the thread.

The 15% I was talking about... it the 15% you DON'T LOSE by taking Squad Command in fitness. Perhaps I worded it wrong.

If you take 6b in fitness... you lose 15% damage, if you take 6a in fitness, you don't lose 15% damage. The choice to take 6a is simply to not gimp my weapons... the melee damage and team damage boost is just icing on the cake.