38 réponses à ce sujet

[IronWolf1987]

After reading the Stolen Throne I still don't understand why Loghain wanted Maric to kill her so badly. Yes she betrayed them at West Hill, however, it's not like she was a rebel supporter who was tempted by gold or power, she was an agent hired to work for Severan and the Orlesians from the begining. The fact of the matter is the one that she truly betrayed was Severan and Orlais, and she was clearly repentant of what happened at West Hill, both Loghain and Rowan knew that.

Furthermore wouldn't having Katriel turned to your side  be the practical thing to do? Her wide knowelde proved to be quite useful on many different occasions, and isn't a good thing if you can turn your enemies agaents against them? I may be wrong, but I think Sun Tzu mentions something like that in the Art of War.

In addition I completely understand why Maric fell so hard for Katriel. Katriel is the type of woman that supports Maric from behind the scenes. She lets Maric be the leader and the hero that he needs to be, but is there for him when he needs to be Maric, being his companion  and confident, treating his wound offering him support, and making him feel masculine. Rowan is a good friend and a good woman, but she isn't the same type of woman that Katriel, and when she tries to be it seems that it just makes both her and Maric miserable.

I could go on, but I'll let other post thier thoughts before I post any more. One last thing though, Loghain also should of realized that Maric being a Fantasy hero it's basically illegal for him to not land the beautiful busty elven maiden, I mean it's just part of the job description, much like it would be improper for Logain being the dark brooding hero to not have some tragic past that affects him for his entire life.

[Costin_Razvan]

There are several reasons:



1) Fereldan CANNOT have an elven queen, no matter what, it simply won't happen. No one would allow it, not the Chantry, not the nobles. So instead of having an elven mistress that would bore him a bastard child, Loghain choose to give up his love for the good of Fereldan, so the country would have a proper king. It must be ironic that Cailan turned out to be a massive idiot.



2) Would you trust someone that can switch allegiances so quickly and easily at your side in war? I know I wouldn't. Loghain was always vocal of what he believed of people, and where his allegiances lie, unlike that elven ****.



3) Her actions at West Hill almost cost them the ENTIRE Rebelion. What Loghain does at Ostagar ( even IF it had been just to betray cailan, which it wasn't as proven by RTO ) is NOTHING compared to what she did at West Hill



4) He needed Maric to realize how to rule a country. Fereldan needed a strong king, and at the time Maric wasn't so, after Kathriel died did the true Rebel King emerge.

[IronWolf1987]

I'm not sure about Ferelden not having an elven queen. Maric thought Ferelden may accept it, and if anyone could get them to do so it would be Maric after all. Not saying it would happen, but it could. The Fereldens are a practical people and if Maric and Katriel were bringing people prosperity, I'm sure they would probably at least tolerate it.



Would I trust someone so easily? Well no of course not, and I'm not saying Loghain, Maric, and Katriel should of all had a group hug and gone out for ice cream, what I'm saying is Loghain should of given Maric the full story like he agreed to do so with Rowan. Instead he pushed Maric to a vulnerable emotional state in which Maric did something he would regret for the rest of his life.



West Hill was pretty disastrous, no doubt, but the rebellion was fraught with nearly wiped out situations for most of it's life. And in the end some good did come out of it, with Maric surviving the Ferelden people became inspired, and forming the allegiance with the legion of the dead was also a huge help.



I personally thought that what Loghain did made Maric a weaker king. It was Maric's idealism and heroism that inspired people to join his cause, if Maric had been just as practical as Loghain then he probably wouldn't led the rebellion in the first place. Besides for all of Loghain practicality and making the hard choices, you see where it gets him in Origins the nobles don't trust him, and instead fear him and are suspicious and rightly so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I say bollocks to all of it.



A double-double-agent is a precious resource that CAN win you whole wars. "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer". Ever ehard of that one?



Loghain doesn't have to trust her - he is not the king, the decisions are not his. Not even Maric has to full trust you. Once you know she was a spy, you keep an eye on her, but you nna make use of her. Even if she is still loyal to Orlais, you can use her to send false information to the enemy.



Loghains strategic thinking is rather limited in that regard.

[IronWolf1987]

That thought crossed my mind too, in fact I was surprised Loghain wasn't salivating at the possibilities of what Katriel could do for the rebels if used properly. Then given the fact that Maric was incredibly charming and charismatic, was he really that skeptical that Maric had indeed charmed Katriel? After all it was Maric's personality that convinced Loghain to join the rebels in the first place.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maric was planning on making her queen, his wife. How can she be a double agent while being the queen at the same time? Think.

You keep your enemies closer until they reveal themselves and become vulnerable. You don't just keep them around cause "lol I am such a geniuz."

Maric needed to become a man and to understand how to become a king. Being the leader of a rebellion and being a King are 2 differetn things. You can afford to be a naive idealist in the latter, but not in the former.

[Costin_Razvan]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

That thought crossed my mind too, in fact I was surprised Loghain wasn't salivating at the possibilities of what Katriel could do for the rebels if used properly. Then given the fact that Maric was incredibly charming and charismatic, was he really that skeptical that Maric had indeed charmed Katriel? After all it was Maric's personality that convinced Loghain to join the rebels in the first place.

Then you clearly never studied millitary history, or even led an army in games such as Medieval Total War. You CANNOT afford to rely on a double crossing agent. No matter whom she might love or say.

[IronWolf1987]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

IronWolf1987 wrote...

That thought crossed my mind too, in fact I was surprised Loghain wasn't salivating at the possibilities of what Katriel could do for the rebels if used properly. Then given the fact that Maric was incredibly charming and charismatic, was he really that skeptical that Maric had indeed charmed Katriel? After all it was Maric's personality that convinced Loghain to join the rebels in the first place.

Then you clearly never studied millitary history, or even led an army in games such as Medieval Total War. You CANNOT afford to rely on a double crossing agent. No matter whom she might love or say.

Er I was never suggesting that Loghain shift all of his prioties and focus all of the rebel's efforts and plans for victory on Katriel being an agent for them, rather that with perhaps with the right precautions Katriel could of done some more good for the rebel army. It was thanks to her that the rebels got a huge ally in the legion of the dead, had it been up to Loghain he would of shanked the Legions' leader in the middle of their camp, surrounded by battle hardend darkspawn shredding dwarves who want nothing more than to die a in a glrorious battle.

[IronWolf1987]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maric was planning on making her queen, his wife. How can she be a double agent while being the queen at the same time? Think.
You keep your enemies closer until they reveal themselves and become vulnerable. You don't just keep them around cause "lol I am such a geniuz."
Maric needed to become a man and to understand how to become a king. Being the leader of a rebellion and being a King are 2 differetn things. You can afford to be a naive idealist in the latter, but not in the former.

Uh even if Maric had married Katirel right then and there she still wouldn't of been queen as they still had a few years of fighting to do until Maric recalimed his throne. Also before Maric even met Katirel, Rowan was his betrothed (thus making her the future queen) and she was out there in the think of things leading her own unit. So whay exactly couldn't Katirel help the rebels using the talents that had been honing for her whole life?

[Joshd21]

Logan what do you have to add to this convo?



Logan:"The Emperor of Orlais also thought I could not bring him down. Expect no more mercy than I showed him, there is nothing I would not do for my homeland."

[Costin_Razvan]

And I assume Rowan and Maric would have just shoed away the Legion of the Dead, riiight. Loghain has his faults, that is true, but he was the one who freed Fereldan, excluding Maric, what everyone else did put together was squat.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maric was planning on making her queen, his wife. How can she be a double agent while being the queen at the same time? Think.
You keep your enemies closer until they reveal themselves and become vulnerable. You don't just keep them around cause "lol I am such a geniuz."
Maric needed to become a man and to understand how to become a king. Being the leader of a rebellion and being a King are 2 differetn things. You can afford to be a naive idealist in the latter, but not in the former.

Uh even if Maric had married Katirel right then and there she still wouldn't of been queen as they still had a few years of fighting to do until Maric recalimed his throne. Also before Maric even met Katirel, Rowan was his betrothed (thus making her the future queen) and she was out there in the think of things leading her own unit. So whay exactly couldn't Katirel help the rebels using the talents that had been honing for her whole life?

But Maric loved the elf and would have married her. As he was the legitimate King without a throne, she would also be the queen. Not formally, but informally. Rowan had a proven alliegance and her fighting blosters the legitimacy of the couple as future king and queen. Katriel is a treacherous agent, who is too good at it.
 What if she continued to be an agent for Orlais when Maric officially becomes king?
There was way too much risk involved in sparing Katriel. She had to die and MAric had to kill her personally. As future King, he is going to have to get used to that.

[IronWolf1987]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And I assume Rowan and Maric would have just shoed away the Legion of the Dead, riiight. Loghain has his faults, that is true, but he was the one who freed Fereldan, excluding Maric, what everyone else did put together was squat.

The Legion only joined the rebels, because Katriel explained to them that they would gain much honor by aiding Maric. Neither Maric nor Rowan knew that they could in fact offer something like that to The Legion. (which makes sense as it appears the concepts of dwarven honor are failiry foreign to topsiders, and I imagine the Legion of the Dead less so) Naturally Maric and Roawn were at least polite to the Legion of the Dead, but without Katriel they would have not gotten them to come topside.

[IronWolf1987]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IronWolf1987 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maric was planning on making her queen, his wife. How can she be a double agent while being the queen at the same time? Think.
You keep your enemies closer until they reveal themselves and become vulnerable. You don't just keep them around cause "lol I am such a geniuz."
Maric needed to become a man and to understand how to become a king. Being the leader of a rebellion and being a King are 2 differetn things. You can afford to be a naive idealist in the latter, but not in the former.

Uh even if Maric had married Katirel right then and there she still wouldn't of been queen as they still had a few years of fighting to do until Maric recalimed his throne. Also before Maric even met Katirel, Rowan was his betrothed (thus making her the future queen) and she was out there in the think of things leading her own unit. So whay exactly couldn't Katirel help the rebels using the talents that had been honing for her whole life?

But Maric loved the elf and would have married her. As he was the legitimate King without a throne, she would also be the queen. Not formally, but informally. Rowan had a proven alliegance and her fighting blosters the legitimacy of the couple as future king and queen. Katriel is a treacherous agent, who is too good at it.
 What if she continued to be an agent for Orlais when Maric officially becomes king?
There was way too much risk involved in sparing Katriel. She had to die and MAric had to kill her personally. As future King, he is going to have to get used to that.

Why exactly does Maric have to kill her? Because that makes him a good king, not having mercy or forgiveness? If that's what makes a good king then the usurper was already doing a fine job. I'm not saying Katirel should get off scotch free, or that Maric neccesarrily should  keep the relationship (though I do completely understand why he found her so attractive). Loghain pushed Maric into a very volatile emotional state where he wasn't thinking rationally, and Loghain with held information from him. How is that justified? Because Loghain thinks it's a good idea? Loghain also thought it was a good idea to ****** off the Legion of the Dead while in the middle of their camp, out numbered by them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IronWolf1987 wrote...
Why exactly does Maric have to kill her? Because that makes him a good king, not having mercy or forgiveness? If that's what makes a good king then the usurper was already doing a fine job. I'm not saying Katirel should get off scotch free, or that Maric neccesarrily should  keep the relationship (though I do completely understand why he found her so attractive). Loghain pushed Maric into a very volatile emotional state where he wasn't thinking rationally, and Loghain with held information from him. How is that justified? Because Loghain thinks it's a good idea? Loghain also thought it was a good idea to ****** off the Legion of the Dead while in the middle of their camp, out numbered by them.

Sometimes a king cannot afford to be merciful, yes. It was a lesson Maric had to learn. He can't always do what his heart wants. It is justified. The only punishment Katriel could recieve was death. About Loghain hiding info. If he told him, Maric would have probably remained in love with her. That couldn't work. No one has an elven queen. Ferelden would become a mockery. Plus Rowan was the better canditate. Loghain was willign to give her up for the sake of Ferelden. I think it's only fitting that Maric is willign to kill the one who betrayed him also.

[IronWolf1987]

Ok I'm sorry but what? I understand sometimes a King can't be merciful and has to make some painful decisions, what is specifically about Katriel that warrants her death? Her role in West Hill? Well she was simply doing her job, and she did a damn good one, but now she wants to join the rebels and make up for her past actions, and has already proved to be very useful. Again I'm not saying she goes scotch free, but I firmly believe that working up Maric into an emotional state where he can't think clearly, runs her through, and then as soon as he realizes what he has done regrets it is the best course of action. If Katriel has to die then that decision should be reached after some careful consideration. Kings have to make tough decisions but even more they need to make sensible ones, Loghain did not push Maric into making a sensible decision.



I get that no one has an elven queen, but things change and Maric him self was pretty progressive, as far as Ferelden being a mockery? Well they're already looked down upon and are considered barbarains who smell like wet dogs, as far as I can tell the Fereldens' don't seem to care and will do what they want. If Maric ( the one who freed them from a tyrant) convinces them that an Elven queen is fine, I seriously doubt your average Felreden is going to care if some guy from Orlais doesn't think it's proper for an elf to be queen.



Exactly why was Rowan a better candidate to be queen? She was fairly similar to Maric in that they were both idealists, though I'd say she is probably a little more willful. She doesn't really make up for any of Maric's weaknesses, and when she tries to be that intimate companion that Maric needs when he is alone with her she doesn't really do a good job of it.

[edeheusch]

For me Loghain had multiple reasons to do so: 

First of all he wanted to harden Maric. I think that, for him, Maric was to much a “good guy” to be an efficient ruler. 

Secondly, Ferelden will never have accepted Kathriel as a queen and Maric will never have broken with her so for the power of the monarchy and to have Maric and Rowan as king and queen, Kathriel needed to die. 

And finally, even if technically she was not really a traitor to Fereleden (but instead she was an Orlesian spy), he want to send a clear message that there won’t be mercy anymore for anybody who betray the rebel cause. 

For all this reasons, if you like the character, it does not honour him to spare him. The young Loghain (as he is in the book) would have never spared anybody who has betrayed the king so I don’t see any reason to spare him (except if I want to show that better than him).

Modifié par edeheusch, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:48 .

[Costin_Razvan]

edeheusch wrote...

For all this reasons, if you like the character, it does not honour him to spare him. The young Loghain (as he is in the book) would have never spared anybody who has betrayed the king so I don’t see any reason to spare him (except if I want to show that better than him).

Thing is, I need him as a general, and as a recruiter. I would never trust Alistair in any of those duties. Besides people need to realize their mistakes in life, not going to the afterlife without that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:06 .

[Suron]

reported for spam.  what ****ing part of "Official Campaign Quests and Storylines" says ANYTHING about spoiling the ****ING book or posting about it.

take this bull**** to another forum

and don't give me this don't read the thread BULL**** either..I can guess at 3/4ths the ****ing plot of the goddamn books because of you idiot ****s that want to post about it on the GAME forum.

take this **** to general or some other ****ing forum.

think I'm being a ******? no more then YOU by posting **** about the books plot in your title in a forum where IT DOESN'T BELONG.

Modifié par Suron, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maric was planning on making her queen, his wife. How can she be a double agent while being the queen at the same time? Think.
You keep your enemies closer until they reveal themselves and become vulnerable. You don't just keep them around cause "lol I am such a geniuz."
Maric needed to become a man and to understand how to become a king. Being the leader of a rebellion and being a King are 2 differetn things. You can afford to be a naive idealist in the latter, but not in the former.

And you have the uiniversal understanding of what it takes to be king? Pffft.

I'm sure Loghain though he knew EXACTLY what was required, because Loghain is never wrong. Bollocks.
Yes, she can be a double-agent as a queen. The higher positioned a spy is, the move valubale it becomes.
And after Maric discovered her past, did he HAVE to marry her? Right away?

For the Love of God pople, use your brains a bit.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But Maric loved the elf and would have married her. As he was the legitimate King without a throne, she would also be the queen. Not formally, but informally. Rowan had a proven alliegance and her fighting blosters the legitimacy of the couple as future king and queen. Katriel is a treacherous agent, who is too good at it.
 What if she continued to be an agent for Orlais when Maric officially becomes king?
There was way too much risk involved in sparing Katriel. She had to die and MAric had to kill her personally. As future King, he is going to have to get used to that.

I told you before - there is no had.

He didn't HAVE to do anything. Your'e so fixated on one option that you're completely blind to everything else...like Loghain.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sometimes a king warden cannot afford to be merciful, yes. It was a lesson Maric Ferelden had to learn. He can't always do what his heart wants. It is justified. The only punishment Katriel Loghian could recieve was death.

Allow me to use your own words agaisnt you.
NO other way, right?

[FlintlockJazz]

One point here: what right did Loghain have to withhold information from his king? Regardless of his reasons, he deliberately withheld information in order to manipulate the true leader for his own purposes, and is indicative of the arrogant belief that then leads Ferelden to it's knees before the Darkspawn blight. If I had found out Loghain had done that to me I would have had him executed, which would be ironic as that is the kind of thing a king he was trying to make Maric into would do...

[Costin_Razvan]

Rowan also agreed to it, mind you that. Would you execute her as well? Mind you, Maric did find out the truth in the end, and didn't care so much.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:32 .

[Azazel005]

Idealism is not a trait that could protect a fledging nation. Maric's idealism would of course have lead him to want to marry Katriel, and forgive her for her betrayal. It would of course lead him to beleive that being a leader simply meant he had to be just and honorable. His idealism would have cut his leadership brutality short, the nobles as said would not brook an elf so highly placed, an ORLESIAN ASSASSIN elf that had BETRAYED them.



How long before the nobles found out, throttled concessions and very probably attempt to assasinate their "King".



Fereldan was not strong enough to show any weakness, Loghain knew that, Rowan knew that and even if Maric knew it he wouldn't have accepted it whiel he still carried his boyish idealism.