374 réponses à ce sujet

[Zero132132]

tyhw wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

tyhw wrote...

To everyone saying they couldn't do that on console:  Of course not.  But that most likely isn't because of any AI differences, but because of your restricting controls.  I don't think that the Xbox version is necessarily easier.  It gets easier AI to go with worse controls.  According to people I've talked to who converted (pretty much VerySeed), the skill floor is higher on console, but the skill ceiling is lower.

I'm going to quote myself here:

tyhw wrote...

a)  I know that VerySeed played on Xbox for quite a while, and claims that you are pretty much invulnerable while sprinting on Xbox.

It is very unlikely that BioWare bothered to change their code to scale differently with FPS between PC and console.  If they did, they likely would have implemented this change in to modify the enemy AI with FPS on PC to prevent the super derpy AI

c) Given that in Mass Effect 2 BioWare intentionally made enemies more difficult on PC  (due to our superior controls)  (link here), I find it highly unlikely that they would turn around and do the opposite in ME3

I have to assume differences in perceived difficulty are due to the controls, not the AI.  Unless someone can give me some good refutations to this.

Early on, he sprints straight through a group of enemies and none of them hit him. That wouldn't happen on Xbox. It isn't just that he can angle his camera while running. You can actually swerve as much as they do in a lot of places using the left joystick; it's only when making hard turns that you have to stop, reorient, and then keep running. Based on the moments where they were able to walk and have enemies miss, the tiny bit of time it takes to turn shouldn't be some gigantic issue that somehow makes the enemies much, much better at actually hitting you.

The enemy targetting behavior just isn't the same. I'm not saying our 30 FPS is your 60, but the enemies have way better tracking on xbox than they do on PC at 30. I kind of doubt that anyone's actually claimed that you're invulnerable while sprinting. You may have misunderstood something they said.

No offense, but this did not convince me.  I've seen several Xbox players in youtube videos sprint right through packs of enemies.  To be honest, this is something that is often possible even at 60 FPS.

As to the quote:
"and i told you sprinting makes you impervious to bullets on console, especially if you had movespeed :p"
- VerySeed on Youtube

It's on the comments of the video in this thread.

No insults were given, so no offense is taken.

The ":p" makes me suspect that this was sort of jokeful. Other players that play on both platforms have said that the targetting doesn't seem much different.

What seems to work when sprinting through enemies is when they're between retargetting cycles. And yeah, when you're moving perpendicular to the enemy, they'll miss a fair amount, especially with speedy classes, but sprinting through a crowd of enemies and taking absolutely no damage or taking only a few shots multiple times just doesn't match my experience.

Geekfest is saying it seems to work a bit, but he was alone. Sort of wish one of the PC guys that can record would work with an Xbox player that can record to try to replicate conditions. Honestly, I'm more curious about it as an issue of game mechanics than anything else.

[upinya slayin]

jkthunder wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...
hits left on the d-pad for a thermal clip, pulls out missile instead

Both Ops packs and TC packs usually bust out my Cobra instead, but sometimes trying to take an Ops pack when I know I'm about to die will end up just letting me go down and decide that I really wanted to use a medigel, since I'm dead after all. Mind. Of. It's. Own.

yeah dpad is terrible. even with seperate dpad buttons

yup got me synch killed the other day. boo at that.

Even better when you try to eat a thermal clip pack, get the cobra instead (or both?), then try to quickly put away the Cobra to use your fresh, juicy, damage-boosted ammo only to find the "put away Cobra" animation didn't quite finish, so you end up sending a missile out. <_<

[jakenou]

OK Slayin - You have two jobs now: The Destroyer Typhoon test and a running laps through crowds test (on Glacier - like Sirian's video)

[tetsutsuru]

jkthunder wrote...

OK Slayin - You have two jobs now: The Destroyer Typhoon test and a running laps through crowds test (on Glacier - like Sirian's video)

Glacier might not be such a good test.  Perhaps... Dagger.  Something with a big, open space where everyone can shoot at the player. 

[StoxRegalia]

On consoles you are very hard to hit while sprinting as long as you are not running in a strait line towards the enemy. Anyone disputing that is a liar.

-Xbox scrub

[upinya slayin]

tetsutsuru wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

OK Slayin - You have two jobs now: The Destroyer Typhoon test and a running laps through crowds test (on Glacier - like Sirian's video)

Glacier might not be such a good test.  Perhaps... Dagger.  Something with a big, open space where everyone can shoot at the player. 

lol were you in on the fart ripper insta downed speed run on glacier? i doubt i'd survive but i'll make it and see if i can replicate the results. geekfest said he could kinda except at the top when he has to turn.

the typhoon one will be easy to replicte and be done friday...as long as i don't get attacked by a wild jkthunder again

[jakenou]

tetsutsuru wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

OK Slayin - You have two jobs now: The Destroyer Typhoon test and a running laps through crowds test (on Glacier - like Sirian's video)

Glacier might not be such a good test.  Perhaps... Dagger.  Something with a big, open space where everyone can shoot at the player. 

Heh, well we're not trying to punish Xboxers

Sirian's video in the OP was comparing framerates doing the same route on Glacier for 3 different tests. Ideally the Xbox tester would use the same character with similar specs for Fitness and any sheild/health modules used.

[jakenou]

upinya slayin wrote...

lol were you in on the fart ripper insta downed speed run on glacier? i doubt i'd survive but i'll make it and see if i can replicate the results. geekfest said he could kinda except at the top when he has to turn.

the typhoon one will be easy to replicte and be done friday...as long as i don't get attacked by a wild jkthunder again

I don't remember if I was there for fart getting insta-downed?

And all you have to do for the running test is pretend a pack of wild jkthunders are chasing you. It'll make you run moar better

[upinya slayin]

RedJohn wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

For that ROF thing, can an xboxer try a Destroyer, full weapon spec, Typhoon X, extended mag, HVB, Warp IV, Assault Rifle Amp III and Assault Rifle Amp V vs a Gold Praetorian ?

It doesn't have double/tripe hit bug as far as I know, on or off host should be irrelevant and it should be easy enough to get headshots.

It should look like this

send me your destroyer spec and i'll do it tomorrow night

edit, just watched the vid. your gonna be suprised on how much longer it'll take me to kill that.

http://narida.pytalh...saultRifleAmp5/

he sais HVB but link you sent has EB. which one is it? i want to make sure i do it exactly the same so there is no discrenpency

[vertigo72]

If anyone is interested, I tried gold at average 200 fps* and it's more or less the same thing as at 60, maybe even easier.

Only noticeable difference is that mouse sensitivity became very low.

* Vsync off, smoothing off, all fancy features off, 720p. Framerate was between 150 and 250.

[upinya slayin]

jkthunder wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

lol were you in on the fart ripper insta downed speed run on glacier? i doubt i'd survive but i'll make it and see if i can replicate the results. geekfest said he could kinda except at the top when he has to turn.

the typhoon one will be easy to replicte and be done friday...as long as i don't get attacked by a wild jkthunder again

I don't remember if I was there for fart getting insta-downed?

And all you have to do for the running test is pretend a pack of wild jkthunders are chasing you. It'll make you run moar better

it was during the speed run training and he was on the balcony and as soon as it said wave X (odn't remember which wave it was) he got downed by 2 primes instantly shooting him all the way form the basement lol. even before the rocket guy could get his 1st rocket off. on glacier if you stand still for 1 second your dead

if they were chasing me i'd waer a meat jackey and lay face down as up :wub::wub:

[CmnDwnWrkn]

With the 30 fps vid, It's isn't just the sprinting through enemies not taking damage that's off vs. the console version. It's the enemy reactions. They are extremely slow to react, even not reacting at all when they're facing the player and the player runs right by them. It's almost like Tactical Cloak is on, but it isn't.

[jakenou]

upinya slayin wrote...

it was during the speed run training and he was on the balcony and as soon as it said wave X (odn't remember which wave it was) he got downed by 2 primes instantly shooting him all the way form the basement lol. even before the rocket guy could get his 1st rocket off. on glacier if you stand still for 1 second your dead

if they were chasing me i'd waer a meat jackey and lay face down as up :wub::wub:

Lulz - I think I was there but don't remember. What char was he using? GI with no fitness and HM on?

Also - FYI, Sirian used a FQE with 3 points in Fitness and Stronghold V in the video test

And the wild jkthunders have developed a sweet tooth. If you want them to really chase you, then cover yourself in whipped cream and chocolate syrup (Challenge points earned for both Flirting and Stalker Mastery simultaneously)

Modifié par jkthunder, 21 mars 2013 - 09:10 .

[nicethugbert]

tetsutsuru wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

OK Slayin - You have two jobs now: The Destroyer Typhoon test and a running laps through crowds test (on Glacier - like Sirian's video)

Glacier might not be such a good test.  Perhaps... Dagger.  Something with a big, open space where everyone can shoot at the player. 

Hydra

[tetsutsuru]

upinya slayin wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

lol were you in on the fart ripper insta downed speed run on glacier? i doubt i'd survive but i'll make it and see if i can replicate the results. geekfest said he could kinda except at the top when he has to turn.

the typhoon one will be easy to replicte and be done friday...as long as i don't get attacked by a wild jkthunder again

I don't remember if I was there for fart getting insta-downed?

And all you have to do for the running test is pretend a pack of wild jkthunders are chasing you. It'll make you run moar better

it was during the speed run training and he was on the balcony and as soon as it said wave X (odn't remember which wave it was) he got downed by 2 primes instantly shooting him all the way form the basement lol. even before the rocket guy could get his 1st rocket off. on glacier if you stand still for 1 second your dead

if they were chasing me i'd waer a meat jackey and lay face down as up :wub::wub:

No, I don't think so.  I have teamed up with Bacon, Cowwy and ISHYGDDT for a few Platinum speedruns.  However to my knowledge, I have not been a part of any recorded speedruns.  We were just practicing.  And I needed the credits. 

In fact, I still need credits.  Just need 3 more Lancers until a maxed-out manifest.  Curse you, Alliance Procurement RNG! <_<

[upinya slayin]

jkthunder wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

it was during the speed run training and he was on the balcony and as soon as it said wave X (odn't remember which wave it was) he got downed by 2 primes instantly shooting him all the way form the basement lol. even before the rocket guy could get his 1st rocket off. on glacier if you stand still for 1 second your dead

if they were chasing me i'd waer a meat jackey and lay face down as up :wub::wub:

Lulz - I think I was there but don't remember. What char was he using? GI with no fitness and HM on?

Also - FYI, Sirian used a FQE with 3 points in Fitness and Stronghold V in the video test

And the wild jkthunders have developed a sweet tooth. If you want them to really chase you, then cover yourself in whipped cream and chocolate syrup (Challenge points earned for both Flirting and Stalker Mastery simultaneously)

I don't emember what character but i don't think he was that squsihy and it was like instant i lol'd so hard and was like how teh **** did u die. he showed me the spot he got shot from and the draw distance dind't even allow him to see the prime it was that far and through such a small crack

(runs to store to but whipped cream and choclolate) :wub:

[RedJohn]

upinya slayin wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

For that ROF thing, can an xboxer try a Destroyer, full weapon spec, Typhoon X, extended mag, HVB, Warp IV, Assault Rifle Amp III and Assault Rifle Amp V vs a Gold Praetorian ?

It doesn't have double/tripe hit bug as far as I know, on or off host should be irrelevant and it should be easy enough to get headshots.

It should look like this

send me your destroyer spec and i'll do it tomorrow night

edit, just watched the vid. your gonna be suprised on how much longer it'll take me to kill that.

http://narida.pytalh...saultRifleAmp5/

he sais HVB but link you sent has EB. which one is it? i want to make sure i do it exactly the same so there is no discrenpency

Use HVB

[Zero132132]

Why use HVB if you've got another way to mitigate armor DR? Wasn't he saying Warp IV? It'd be taking 5 damage away per shot just off of that. Does the high calibur barrel increase the damage by more than that?

[mybudgee]

The 15FPS vid gave me explosive diarrhea...

Modifié par mybudgee, 22 mars 2013 - 12:35 .

[jakenou]

Zero132132 wrote...

Why use HVB if you've got another way to mitigate armor DR? Wasn't he saying Warp IV? It'd be taking 5 damage away per shot just off of that. Does the high calibur barrel increase the damage by more than that?

It's for the sake of comparison. Using the same exact specs on both platforms.

[BridgeBurner]

Zero132132 wrote...

Why use HVB if you've got another way to mitigate armor DR? Wasn't he saying Warp IV? It'd be taking 5 damage away per shot just off of that. Does the high calibur barrel increase the damage by more than that?

0.65 * 75 = 48.75, so 26.25 damage lost versus armour. EB gives you another 0.25 * 83.25 = 20.81

Taking HVB over EB means you're losing 20.81 damage, but gaining 26.25 * 0.9 damage per shot versus armour, =23.62 damage on hot shots.

In terms of actual damage, taking the HVB is better for the typhoon when using warp ammo versus armour (not barriers, shields, health obviously) as the additional armour piercing applied to your already warp weakened enemy armour DR accounts for greater increased damage.

I couldn't tell you whether or not the armour damage numbers will make it a flat out better option to use HVB, but it definitely is slightly stronger in armour damage.

[IIFlash]

Annomander wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Why use HVB if you've got another way to mitigate armor DR? Wasn't he saying Warp IV? It'd be taking 5 damage away per shot just off of that. Does the high calibur barrel increase the damage by more than that?

0.65 * 75 = 48.75, so 26.25 damage lost versus armour. EB gives you another 0.25 * 83.25 = 20.81

Taking HVB over EB means you're losing 20.81 damage, but gaining 26.25 * 0.9 damage per shot versus armour, =23.62 damage on hot shots.

In terms of actual damage, taking the HVB is better for the typhoon when using warp ammo versus armour (not barriers, shields, health obviously) as the additional armour piercing applied to your already warp weakened enemy armour DR accounts for greater increased damage.

I couldn't tell you whether or not the armour damage numbers will make it a flat out better option to use HVB, but it definitely is slightly stronger in armour damage.

This is off topic and I'm sure it's been answered somewhere else.
But how does a) HVB + Warp Ammo IV stack up to EB + AP IV?
I usually go option or HVB + Incendiary.

[Mindfane]

Caratinoid wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Guys I think you are taking things in a different context.

Framerate seems to affect the amount of bullets that reach the target but not the damage itself.

It doesn't affect RoF or damage but it does affect the amount of bullets that hit the target. the higher the RPMs the more it is affected by the frame rate.

So weapons like Typhoon and Hurricane would be amazingly affected by a low FPS, just try to kill a husk with a Typhoon on gold playing at 15 FPS and try the same at 60, it won't be the same.

Yeah, this is how I understand it as well, I think your mouse lag is bigger at a lower frame rate so what you see on the screen is not always what you are aiming at, which makes you miss much more bullets if target is moving, kinda like crusader. Should not make a difference for bosses.

But why? Those two wepons are hitscan, so why would they miss at lower framerate (except against small, fast moving enemies). continous fire weapons could only miss the first 1 or 2 bullets. Their rate of fire wont be affected beecuase the update loop alwsy gets the deltaTime as a parameter and almsot all calculations are based on the deltaTime.

I ran some tests with UDK and I can confirm that enemy AI IS affected by FPS. Most notble problem with AI is their ianablity to target you at lower FPS (espceially if there are blockers in between).

In ME3 enemy uses a cone trace to target players. However for the sake of simplicity, lets assume they use line trace. Now the enemy AI can run this trace only when his update loop is executed. In UE, the update loop for every actor is acleld ocne per frame. So while running at 60FPS, this means the update loop iscalled 60 times per secodn.(or once every 16 milliseconds). Now if AI runs one trace and missed you, he runs anotehr trace after 16 ms.
But when the framerate is at 30. He need to wait 33ms between each trace. When the player is running perpedicular to his trace vector, this is a significant difffrence (especially if there are cover elements in between the player and enemy)

However FPS is not suppoed to affect collision detection becuase you have to take the deltaTime (which is 16ms@60 and 33ms@30) into consideartion (unreals internal collsion detection does this). Unless BioWare progammed things diffrently and latere the default code (which apprently they did in some basic classes), player weapons should behave the same way across Framerates).

However resposiveness can be affected by framerates. ie Your FIRE command (and other commands) will take 16ms to register @ 60 FPS and 33ms @ 30 FPS. So wepons on burst fire could perform better on higher FPS (provided you have fast fingers). Weapons like Harrier, Typhoon, should not be affected by this too much (except the small delay in fire start) afterwards fort each hitscan the current positon of eye vector and enemy lcoation are used. Crusader could be affected due to being a single shot weapon and the fire delay will affect each shot.

Modifié par Mindfane, 22 mars 2013 - 03:49 .

[Feneckus]

IIFlash wrote...

This is off topic and I'm sure it's been answered somewhere else.
But how does a) HVB + Warp Ammo IV stack up to EB + AP IV?
I usually go option or HVB + Incendiary.

Barrel + AP IV is probably better, but since so many Collector units have barriers, Warp Ammo + HVB isn't that much worse. It's better to save AP IVs for Cerberus/Reapers.

And I save Incendiary IVs for kits that can reliably detonate fire explosions.

[your-friendly-noggin]

 This could have been done so much better, I would have shut my mouth and passed it by but that commentary was insulting to put it lightly. First off I'm sure many people have mentioned it already but you can turn while running n consoles just not as sharply. Now the AI was noticeably worse at making that initial shot at 30 fps however it was nowhere near as bad as it was made out to be.
Sprinting was not 'easymode' the majority of the downs in that 30 fps part were whilst sprinting, not walking, not doing something stupid, sprinting. It was the commentary that made it seem bad because immediately he is making comments about 'how can console players play like this' and 'running in a straight line', yet when the AI struggles at the start of 60 fps he says how dumb they are being as if to shrug it off. Also count the sidesteps in the 60 fps part over the 30 part, this wouldn't be so bad apart from many of his downs came seconds after stopping to sidestep in the 60 fps section.

I'm not trying to claim there isn't a difference but this video was not a good comparison, it was childish and poorly done, I had a lot of respect for Lord Sirian before this, I watch a lot of pc players and think how good they are(sometimes incredible), but after this I just feel like the showboating has gone too far and the horse is so damn high we can't even see you.