186 réponses à ce sujet

[SiriusXI]

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

No, this is a false assumption. The organic vs synthetic problem (if we believe the starbrat) is a "pre-reaper" problem, to which the reapers are the supposed "solution". If the Catalyst had never been created, the reapers would never have existed and therefore no conflict between reapers and organics would have existed.

By introducing the solution through the reaper cycle, the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. So you cannot argue that there is a synthetic vs organic conflict, because REAPERS. That supposed conflict has to exist without reapers to make your agument valid.

This conflict was never the overarching plot. The Geth/Quatian conflict is only slightly worse than say the Krogan/Turian or Krogan/Salarian conflict.

There has NEVER been any hint towards the assumtion that there is "a inevitable, unsolvable conflict between ALL synthetic vs. ALL organic life, that will ALWAYS end in extinction of organic life". Hudson and Walters, you two did not understand your own story!

[Eterna]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment?

In ME1 the theme was intact, yes. But the reimagining of the Reapers as "organic constructs" (EDI on the SM) did a lot of damage to that idea at a critical junction of the story. Had they stuck with the cut dialogue and made Legions' conversation about the nature of the Reapers more accessible, the idea may have held.

I feel as though Bioware considers the Resper threat to be a chief example of organic vs Synthetic, even if we disagree. 

[NeonFlux117]

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

Reapers aren't synthetic, their organic material/essence/minds in a synthetic shell. They absorb the "essence of an organic species and preserve them". so.... yeah. 



BTW we never get an explanation of what an "essence of organic life" is. I really wanted to ask Harby, I mean the Catalyst that one. 

"Sentient race of Machines responsible for cleansing the Galaxy..."

From the ME3 intro.

No. Go play leviathan. Or go back to ME2 suicide mission before the fight with the proto reaper. Shepard say's "but the reapers are just machines". EDI say's no there, and I'm paraphrasing- "organic essence molded with a synthetic construct- Physically reapers are machines but inside there not, there millions and millions of independent minds- organic races. The reapers are interesting, but not to be trusted and neither is their reaper overlord the "Catalyst". 


It's amazing that Bioware forgot their own lore in the previous two titles, lol. Sad but true. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 21 mars 2013 - 09:10 .

[Eterna]

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

No, this is a false assumption. The organic vs synthetic problem (if we believe the starbrat) is a "pre-reaper" problem, to which the reapers are the supposed "solution". If the Catalyst had never been created, the reapers would never have existed and therefore no conflict between reapers and organics would have existed.

By introducing the solution through the reaper cycle, the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. So you cannot argue that there is a synthetic vs organic conflict, because REAPERS. That supposed conflict has to exist without reapers to make your agument valid.

This conflict was never the overarching plot. The Geth/Quatian conflict is only slightly worse than say the Krogan/Turian or Krogan/Salarian conflict.

There has NEVER been any hint towards the assumtion that there is "a inevitable, unsolvable conflict between ALL synthetic vs. ALL organic life, that will ALWAYS end in extinction of organic life". Hudson and Walters, you two did not understand your own story!

Ignoring completely that the Reapers and Catalyst are a by product of the organic vs synthetic conflict. 

[Eterna]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

Reapers aren't synthetic, their organic material/essence/minds in a synthetic shell. They absorb the "essence of an organic species and preserve them". so.... yeah. 



BTW we never get an explanation of what an "essence of organic life" is. I really wanted to ask Harby, I mean the Catalyst that one. 

"Sentient race of Machines responsible for cleansing the Galaxy..."

From the ME3 intro.

No. Go play leviathan. Or go back to ME2 suicide mission when fight the proto reaper. Shepard say's "but the reapers are just machines". EDI say's no there, and I'm paraphrasing- "organic essence model with a synthetic construct- Physically reapers are machines but inside there not, there millions and millions of independent minds- organic races. The reapers are interesting, but not to be trusted and neither is their reapers overlord the "Catalyst". 


It's amazing that Bioware forgot their own lore in the previous two titles, lol. Sad but true. 

Their overlord isn't organic. 

[wright1978]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

whalewhisker wrote...

I think it's dumb and lazy.

Not dumb and lazy....... it's "art". Didn't you get the memo....... ART.

Ah Yes Art, where dumb and lazy find a welcome home.

[SiriusXI]

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

[remydat]

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

The Geth are in ME1 as well so it Certainly looks like organics versus machines.  Furthermore, once Sovereign is revealed as the main villain not Saren it is most certainly reapers vs machines.  We have no concept of Sovereign motives until ME2 really.

Modifié par remydat, 21 mars 2013 - 09:11 .

[NeonFlux117]

wright1978 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

whalewhisker wrote...

I think it's dumb and lazy.

Not dumb and lazy....... it's "art". Didn't you get the memo....... ART.

Ah Yes Art, where dumb and lazy find a welcome home.

now, now. Just embrace the art little sheep. Embrace it. cause it has "artistic integrity". 



Quit question or analyzing Biowares ART, damn you!!!! Like it. Just like bro.

[Eterna]

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

I wouldn't say no option for peace makes it worse. It makes the decision actually have some weight to it instead of you being handed a get out of jail free card.

[remydat]

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

That proves nothing except that in any conflict moments of peace are possible.  Did the peace at the end of WWI prevent WWII.  To sit there and assume that the peace brokered between two enemies fighting for centuries is solved by one man permanently is naive.  England and France had moments of peace admist about a 500 years of conflict.

Furthermore, what happens when more synthetic races pop up?  The council still has bans on synthetic life.  What happens when Shepard dies when again the peace was forged basically based on one man.

[SiriusXI]

Eterna5 wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

No, this is a false assumption. The organic vs synthetic problem (if we believe the starbrat) is a "pre-reaper" problem, to which the reapers are the supposed "solution". If the Catalyst had never been created, the reapers would never have existed and therefore no conflict between reapers and organics would have existed.

By introducing the solution through the reaper cycle, the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. So you cannot argue that there is a synthetic vs organic conflict, because REAPERS. That supposed conflict has to exist without reapers to make your agument valid.

This conflict was never the overarching plot. The Geth/Quatian conflict is only slightly worse than say the Krogan/Turian or Krogan/Salarian conflict.

There has NEVER been any hint towards the assumtion that there is "a inevitable, unsolvable conflict between ALL synthetic vs. ALL organic life, that will ALWAYS end in extinction of organic life". Hudson and Walters, you two did not understand your own story!

Ignoring completely that the Reapers and Catalyst are a by product of the organic vs synthetic conflict. 

OMG, you are impossible to argue with. YOu cannot through out one sentence answers to a whole paragraphe. Did you read it at least?

Once again: Catalyst INTRODUCES the synthetic vs organic conflict, it it not a byproduct. Before there were reapers, there was no danger that ALL synthetics would wipe out ALL organics. Only reapers do that. At least we are not shown or told otherwise in the game untill the last 10 minutes.

The problem is that the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. No catalyst = no problem.

[NeonFlux117]

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

Reapers aren't synthetic, their organic material/essence/minds in a synthetic shell. They absorb the "essence of an organic species and preserve them". so.... yeah. 



BTW we never get an explanation of what an "essence of organic life" is. I really wanted to ask Harby, I mean the Catalyst that one. 

"Sentient race of Machines responsible for cleansing the Galaxy..."

From the ME3 intro.

No. Go play leviathan. Or go back to ME2 suicide mission when fight the proto reaper. Shepard say's "but the reapers are just machines". EDI say's no there, and I'm paraphrasing- "organic essence model with a synthetic construct- Physically reapers are machines but inside there not, there millions and millions of independent minds- organic races. The reapers are interesting, but not to be trusted and neither is their reapers overlord the "Catalyst". 


It's amazing that Bioware forgot their own lore in the previous two titles, lol. Sad but true. 

Their overlord isn't organic. 

yeah I know..... The 'catalyst' or inteligence (stupid name BTW, nothing inteligent about it) was the first reaper, okay well not the "reapers" as we know and see them in game, but it was the first reaper in the answer to the "Chaos" problem. It reaped up Leviathans. Created Harby- the first "reaper". Remeber what sovereign said "We simply are". The catalyst is just a rogue AI that went crazy and killed it's master and then tried to perfect it's "solution" by wiping out all organic life that is a challenge to it's dominance- it's answer to this was creating these perfect war and killing machines "Reapers". 

But the catalyst tells you it's little minions aren't at war with organics. And they just do things and should be trusted and let live. 


Make's since to me. :wizard:

[Eterna]

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

No, this is a false assumption. The organic vs synthetic problem (if we believe the starbrat) is a "pre-reaper" problem, to which the reapers are the supposed "solution". If the Catalyst had never been created, the reapers would never have existed and therefore no conflict between reapers and organics would have existed.

By introducing the solution through the reaper cycle, the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. So you cannot argue that there is a synthetic vs organic conflict, because REAPERS. That supposed conflict has to exist without reapers to make your agument valid.

This conflict was never the overarching plot. The Geth/Quatian conflict is only slightly worse than say the Krogan/Turian or Krogan/Salarian conflict.

There has NEVER been any hint towards the assumtion that there is "a inevitable, unsolvable conflict between ALL synthetic vs. ALL organic life, that will ALWAYS end in extinction of organic life". Hudson and Walters, you two did not understand your own story!

Ignoring completely that the Reapers and Catalyst are a by product of the organic vs synthetic conflict. 

OMG, you are impossible to argue with. YOu cannot through out one sentence answers to a whole paragraphe. Did you read it at least?

Once again: Catalyst INTRODUCES the synthetic vs organic conflict, it it not a byproduct. Before there were reapers, there was no danger that ALL synthetics would wipe out ALL organics. Only reapers do that. At least we are not shown or told otherwise in the game untill the last 10 minutes.

The problem is that the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. No catalyst = no problem.

Actually the entire cycle is a by product of the organic vs synthetic conflict, as revealed by the Leviathans. If there wasn't the organic vs synthetic conflict the catalyst and reapers would have never existed.

At the release of ME3 you are right, the catalyst introduces the conflict. However, DLC has expanded the universe and added new lore. You can no longer argue your position without denying canon. 

[SiriusXI]

remydat wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

That proves nothing except that in any conflict moments of peace are possible.  Did the peace at the end of WWI prevent WWII.  To sit there and assume that the peace brokered between two enemies fighting for centuries is solved by one man permanently is naive.  England and France had moments of peace admist about a 500 years of conflict.

Furthermore, what happens when more synthetic races pop up?  The council still has bans on synthetic life.  What happens when Shepard dies when again the peace was forged basically based on one man.

Haha, WWI did not really end in "peace" but in defeat, followed by a the Treaty of Versailles, which was forced on Germany. The German people felt mistreated and oppressed by the Treaty of Versailles, this is why Hitler could mobilize the Germans to follow his lead.

The Geth/Quarian conflict ended in TRUE peace. No side was ever defeated. there was no victory for either Quarians or Geth.

[NeonFlux117]

SiriusXI wrote...

remydat wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

That proves nothing except that in any conflict moments of peace are possible.  Did the peace at the end of WWI prevent WWII.  To sit there and assume that the peace brokered between two enemies fighting for centuries is solved by one man permanently is naive.  England and France had moments of peace admist about a 500 years of conflict.

Furthermore, what happens when more synthetic races pop up?  The council still has bans on synthetic life.  What happens when Shepard dies when again the peace was forged basically based on one man.

Haha, WWI did not really end in "peace" but in defeat, followed by a the Treaty of Versailles, which was forced on Germany. The German people felt mistreated and oppressed by the Treaty of Versailles, this is why Hitler could mobilize the Germans to follow his lead.

The Geth/Quarian conflict ended in TRUE peace. No side was ever defeated. there was no victory for either Quarians or Geth.

Stop. Stop. Just stop. to much logical thinking. You gotta dumb down homeslice. Speak in hypotheticals and dogmatic views. It will go better for you. 

[Eterna]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

It reaped up Leviathans. Created Harby- the first "reaper". Remeber what sovereign said "We simply are". The catalyst is just a rogue AI that went crazy and killed it's master and then tried to perfect it's "solution" by wiping out all organic life that is a challenge to it's dominance- it's answer to this was creating these perfect war and killing machines "Reapers".

This isn't true at all.  The Catalysts motives are not dominance or power, it is fulfilling the mandate given to it. It didn't go crazy either, it has not deviated from its original programming.  The cycle is not a war, it is a harvest. 

But the catalyst tells you it's little minions aren't at war with organics. And they just do things and should be trusted and let live. 

The Catalyst never asks you to trust it, nor does it ask you for mercy. Not once. It simply wants you to activate a new solution. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 21 mars 2013 - 09:27 .

[NeonFlux117]

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

It reaped up Leviathans. Created Harby- the first "reaper". Remeber what sovereign said "We simply are". The catalyst is just a rogue AI that went crazy and killed it's master and then tried to perfect it's "solution" by wiping out all organic life that is a challenge to it's dominance- it's answer to this was creating these perfect war and killing machines "Reapers".

This isn't true at all.  The Catalysts motives are not dominance or power, it is fulfilling the mandate given to it. It didn't go crazy either, it has not deviated from its original programming.  The cycle is not a war either, it is a harvest. 

But the catalyst tells you it's little minions aren't at war with organics. And they just do things and should be trusted and let live. 

The Catalyst never asks you to trust it, nor does it ask you for mercy. Not once. It simply wants you to activate a new solution. 

Yeah, I trust it and I'm glad you do to. 

[SiriusXI]

Eterna5 wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

No, this is a false assumption. The organic vs synthetic problem (if we believe the starbrat) is a "pre-reaper" problem, to which the reapers are the supposed "solution". If the Catalyst had never been created, the reapers would never have existed and therefore no conflict between reapers and organics would have existed.

By introducing the solution through the reaper cycle, the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. So you cannot argue that there is a synthetic vs organic conflict, because REAPERS. That supposed conflict has to exist without reapers to make your agument valid.

This conflict was never the overarching plot. The Geth/Quatian conflict is only slightly worse than say the Krogan/Turian or Krogan/Salarian conflict.

There has NEVER been any hint towards the assumtion that there is "a inevitable, unsolvable conflict between ALL synthetic vs. ALL organic life, that will ALWAYS end in extinction of organic life". Hudson and Walters, you two did not understand your own story!

Ignoring completely that the Reapers and Catalyst are a by product of the organic vs synthetic conflict. 

OMG, you are impossible to argue with. YOu cannot through out one sentence answers to a whole paragraphe. Did you read it at least?

Once again: Catalyst INTRODUCES the synthetic vs organic conflict, it it not a byproduct. Before there were reapers, there was no danger that ALL synthetics would wipe out ALL organics. Only reapers do that. At least we are not shown or told otherwise in the game untill the last 10 minutes.

The problem is that the catalyst introduces the problem it tries to solve. No catalyst = no problem.

Actually the entire cycle is a by product of the organic vs synthetic conflict, as revealed by the Leviathans. If there wasn't the organic vs synthetic conflict the catalyst and reapers would have never existed.

At the release of ME3 you are right, the catalyst introduces the conflict. However, DLC has expanded the universe and added new lore. You can no longer argue your position without denying canon. 

OK, but:
1. Why would the Levithans, who try to solve this problem ADD TO IT, by creating an AI that kills organics in order to reserve them? Are they just stupid?

2. This "backstory" still comes out of nowhere. The problem is that, in order to make this conflict believable" it should have been established way back in ME1 and stressed a lot in ME2. Starting to mention this conflict somewhere during ME3 is just too late. It seems forced and contrieved.

3. Why is this "important" back story that is "essential to understanding the supposed MAIN THEME" not in the game but extra DLC?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

That proves nothing except that in any conflict moments of peace are possible.  Did the peace at the end of WWI prevent WWII.  To sit there and assume that the peace brokered between two enemies fighting for centuries is solved by one man permanently is naive.  England and France had moments of peace admist about a 500 years of conflict.

Furthermore, what happens when more synthetic races pop up?  The council still has bans on synthetic life.  What happens when Shepard dies when again the peace was forged basically based on one man.

Then it's not Shepard's problem, is it? The next generation will just have to work it out themselves, right?

See the only way to eliminate any problem between organics and synthetics is to get rid of both of them. But that's not a solution. Nor is it a solution to merge them into one, because that's only temporary. The galaxy will make new organic life on its own, and there will be conflict between synthorgs and organics who will make synthetics. See?

The solution is to get rid of the idiot Catalyst and its toys and work it out ourselves.

[Eterna]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

It reaped up Leviathans. Created Harby- the first "reaper". Remeber what sovereign said "We simply are". The catalyst is just a rogue AI that went crazy and killed it's master and then tried to perfect it's "solution" by wiping out all organic life that is a challenge to it's dominance- it's answer to this was creating these perfect war and killing machines "Reapers".

This isn't true at all.  The Catalysts motives are not dominance or power, it is fulfilling the mandate given to it. It didn't go crazy either, it has not deviated from its original programming.  The cycle is not a war either, it is a harvest. 

But the catalyst tells you it's little minions aren't at war with organics. And they just do things and should be trusted and let live. 

The Catalyst never asks you to trust it, nor does it ask you for mercy. Not once. It simply wants you to activate a new solution. 

Yeah, I trust it and I'm glad you do to. 

Is that the best you can do when someone calls you out on your bull****?

[NeonFlux117]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

remydat wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment? 

It's Reapers vs non reapers. Not Reapers vs Organics. Can you give me one reason why synthetics and organics are supposed to hate each other that isn't resolved during the trilogy?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

Also, most of the Synthetic conflicts would not be resolved without Shepard. There would have been no peace on Rannoch without him/her, not to mention that there is no canon outcome for the Rannoch arc. It is only resolved for some people and honestly they should have removed the peace option entirely. 

But the very fact that Spehard achieves peace is evidence for the
fact that peace can exist between organics and synthetics. Geth are way
more poweful as true AIs and yet they help their creators.

But you are right. In order for the ending to make more sense, the peace option should have been removed. That yould have made the Rhannoch arch a lot worse, would have rendered the previous games even more meaningless, but it would indeed have helped the endings to make more sense.

That proves nothing except that in any conflict moments of peace are possible.  Did the peace at the end of WWI prevent WWII.  To sit there and assume that the peace brokered between two enemies fighting for centuries is solved by one man permanently is naive.  England and France had moments of peace admist about a 500 years of conflict.

Furthermore, what happens when more synthetic races pop up?  The council still has bans on synthetic life.  What happens when Shepard dies when again the peace was forged basically based on one man.

Then it's not Shepard's problem, is it? The next generation will just have to work it out themselves, right?

See the only way to eliminate any problem between organics and synthetics is to get rid of both of them. But that's not a solution. Nor is it a solution to merge them into one, because that's only temporary. The galaxy will make new organic life on its own, and there will be conflict between synthorgs and organics who will make synthetics. See?

The solution is to get rid of the idiot Catalyst and its toys and work it out ourselves.

No the Catalyst is a good thing and is just a mandate. As are the reapers. And there's no war just the "Harvest". See all your allies and friends dying and being killed and exterminated by an invasion of the reapers isn't a war it's a "harvest" and it's a good thing. The reapers let the lesser races live cause they be so cool and new like, but the powerful organic races they be old and bad. They don't crave power. Not like Harby ever talks about true power or anything. Reapers and catalyst are good thing. 

[NeonFlux117]

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

It reaped up Leviathans. Created Harby- the first "reaper". Remeber what sovereign said "We simply are". The catalyst is just a rogue AI that went crazy and killed it's master and then tried to perfect it's "solution" by wiping out all organic life that is a challenge to it's dominance- it's answer to this was creating these perfect war and killing machines "Reapers".

This isn't true at all.  The Catalysts motives are not dominance or power, it is fulfilling the mandate given to it. It didn't go crazy either, it has not deviated from its original programming.  The cycle is not a war either, it is a harvest. 

But the catalyst tells you it's little minions aren't at war with organics. And they just do things and should be trusted and let live. 

The Catalyst never asks you to trust it, nor does it ask you for mercy. Not once. It simply wants you to activate a new solution. 

Yeah, I trust it and I'm glad you do to. 

Is that the best you can do when someone calls you out on your bull****?

Like the other dude said, you are not one for discourse or critical thinking. So........ Cool Story bro. 

[EnvyTB075]

So according to him, my choice to romance Garrus Vakarian was influenced by Organics and AI's not being BFF's.





okay.


edit: In other news, in the source code on the BF4 teaser website

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 21 mars 2013 - 09:36 .

[Eterna]

SiriusXI wrote...

OK, but:
1. Why would the Levithans, who try to solve this problem ADD TO IT, by creating an AI that kills organics in order to reserve them? Are they just stupid?

Arrogance. They thought themselves immune. 

"You cannot concieve of a Galaxy that bends to your will. Every creature, every nation, every planet we discovered became our tools. We were above the concerns of lesser species"

2. This "backstory" still comes out of nowhere. The problem is that, in order to make this conflict believable" it should have been established way back in ME1 and stressed a lot in ME2. Starting to mention this conflict somewhere during ME3 is just too late. It seems forced and contrieved.

It was, you spent most of the game fighting the Geth.

3. Why is this "important" back story that is "essential to understanding the supposed MAIN THEME" not in the game but extra DLC?

Lack of foresight. I'm not defending their actions, I'm just saying you can no longer say it "Came from nowhere" and was "Introduced at the last minute" when their is new cannonical information that states otherwise, dlc or not.

Modifié par Eterna5, 21 mars 2013 - 09:39 .