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"The over-arching theme of organics versus machines shaped all the story choices."


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#76
RedBeardJim

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Wulfram wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Lack of foresight. I'm not defending their actions, I'm just saying you can no longer say it "Came from nowhere" and was "Introduced at the last minute" when their is new cannonical information that states otherwise, dlc or not.


Yes, you can.  Mass Effect 3 was sold as a complete product and story, and should be primarily assessed on it's own, without subsequent additions to it.


Especially when you're discussing an interview that was given the week before the game's release.

#77
NeonFlux117

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Saying it was 'sold as a complete product' is a tad generous. The thing is an rushed unfinished wreck that borders on DA2's scale.



You sound like a whiner and entitled. Wanting a finished product, ha! Stupid gamer. don't like the ending or don't get it- your glib and need to grow up. 
















































I'm kidding. DA2 was bad, but it's got nothing on the debacle that will forever be ME3's ending and outcry. Never seen anything like it really. And that's gotta be worth something. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 21 mars 2013 - 10:57 .


#78
Dr_Extrem

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Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.


But isn't the Reaper vs all organic life a prime example of Synthetic vs organic theme which was present in each installment?

In ME1 the theme was intact, yes. But the reimagining of the Reapers as "organic constructs" (EDI on the SM) did a lot of damage to that idea at a critical junction of the story. Had they stuck with the cut dialogue and made Legions' conversation about the nature of the Reapers more accessible, the idea may have held.


I feel as though Bioware considers the Resper threat to be a chief example of organic vs Synthetic, even if we disagree. 


the story looks like a classic example of "good vs. evil" and the reapers and the geth, are only "synthetic by accident". the problem is, that the plot of mass effect would still work, if the reapers would not be synthetics.

the good vs evil nature of the plot is too obvious and the writers missed the opportunity, to clarify the organic vs. synthetic threat. the geth may be synthetics but they are also part of the reaper forces - they become part of the "evil" in our scenario - the fact that they are synthetics is now minor. while we have some sidemissions that show us that synthetic intelligence is a threat, it does not appear to be the main plot - the reapers and their cycles of extinction overshadow this - in addition, those hints hide in sidequests.
it does not help either, that the geth are not shown as a universal evil either - they acted in self defense and that makes their action acceptable to a certain degree. this plots theme is more like "you cant just create and destroy life as you wish" or "dont play god, if you cant face the repercussions". again, this plot would have worked, with the geth being genetically engineered organics.


while the "organic vs synthetic" theme still is present in mass effect 1, it looses its grip in mass effect 2. suddenly, we have a friendly ai on board our ship - that fact that edi teases joker makes her even more "human". the borders between organic and synthetic blurr. the protagonist is now "half synthetic" but there is no personal conflict that would reflect the "organic vs synthetic" theme. shepard gets along pretty well. the theme becomes more and more unimportant, the further the story proceeds. shepard upgrades him/herself with more and more tech, edi is unshackled and shows signs of humor and comradship and the reapers are suddenly organic/synthetic hybrids, who use organic/synthetic hybrids as their agents (collectors).


at this point, the "good vs. evil" theme is strong and established while the "organic vs synthetic" theme is almost dismantled.


if the organic vs. synthecit theme was meant to be the overarching plot, the writers did not a good job in mediating it.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 21 mars 2013 - 11:05 .


#79
kumquats

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InvincibleHero wrote...

Legion tells Shepard we are not like you and we do not follow your rules or act like you so don't treat us like organics to paraphrase. Geth don't think like people nor follow any of the conventional philosophies of any organic race. Diplomacy no. Sanctity of life no. Geth do what benefits geth always and forever. Primary instinct is their self-preservation period. if organics are perceived as a threat to that they will be terminated. That is all.


True, but I think BW should have been more clear on this. People just see EDI hooking up with Joker and they only see, happy ending on Rannoch.

In my opinion, it was a big mistake to give Rannoch a peaceful solution and I'm even more a critic of the whole EDI storyline.

There was too much humanization going on with our synthetic protagonists.

#80
NeonFlux117

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Mcfly616 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Come on, Mcfly don't take it so serious. BTW, why do you even care if I blocked someone? Are you jealous Mcfly? That's cute. I'm not butthurt over the endings. And I don't spew hate about them. I'd love to have a deep conversation about the endings. And when I say deep, you know I mean DEEP. 


Love you to buddy. ;););)

take what serious? You? You can't be for real right now....can you even read?

Notice the first thing I typed was "lol". That means I'm laughing at you. You've been here for what like 2 months tops? And you've emerged as the forums biggest troll and continue to distance yourself from rest of the field on a daily basis. Quite comical, really...

I couldnt care less about who you block or report, no moderator is going to take you seriously. I was merely pointing how pathetic you look



I love you Mcfly, you truly are such a copacetic individual. "When a troll, trolls is he not just trolling. Is it not just doing want it's meant to do."













p.s. I'm not a troll. I love ME and enjoy ME3- but I'm not a fan of the endings. Again, this should not bring gamers and people apart and make them have angst against their fellow shepards in war, but it did and does. 







Okay, I lied, sometimes. SOMETIMES, I make troll like statement. But I'm not a troll. 

#81
TookYoCookies

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old news. bad writers will write stupid Sh*t.

Bad producers will produce stupid sh*t.

Plain and simple.

#82
NeonFlux117

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TookYoCookies wrote...

old news. bad writers will write stupid Sh*t.

Bad producers will produce stupid sh*t.

Plain and simple.




This is the most intelligent thing I've read on the forums today. Good stuff. 

#83
Killer3000ad

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That's odd Casey, I played through all three games and the over-arching theme I got was not organics vs machines. What I got was the galaxy vs the Reapers. Also the possibility of making peace between the geth and quarians, the presence of EDI and her relationship with joker, the fact that Shepard is partially synthetic now and Legion helping in ME2, all of that kinda flies in the face of what Casey said. Either I am totally wrong in how I interpreted the ME series or someone is a bad storyteller.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 21 mars 2013 - 11:18 .


#84
LilyasAvalon

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NeonFlux117 wrote...

I'm kidding. DA2 was bad, but it's got nothing on the debacle that will forever be ME3's ending and outcry. Never seen anything like it really. And that's gotta be worth something. 


Yeah, but at least ME3 had it's moments. The genophage arc didn't feel very rushed to me for example and was EXTREMELY satisfying at the end, even if I did bawl like a baby at Mordin's death. DA2 had like nothing that comes to mind or sticks. Hell, aside from running away from Fereldan, I don't even remember the plot of the game (Was there a plot?).

Though I do agree. DA2 has been just plain forgotten at this point, while ME3 will probably ALWAYS be remembered as the most... how did the EA PR team put it? 'The most passionate responce to a series ever'.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 21 mars 2013 - 11:25 .


#85
crimzontearz

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In my country we call that kinda statements "putting your hands forward"

#86
LilyasAvalon

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crimzontearz wrote...

In my country we call that kinda statements "putting your hands forward"


I don't follow. :huh:

#87
CaptainCommander

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Casey seems to come across as a boss who would tell JK Rowling that Harry Potter should be a cowboy who goes to cowboy school cause wizards aren't cool. I miss Drew! =(

But on topic. I never got anything about Synthetics vs Organics. In ME1 you fight geth because the Reapers are controlling them, in ME2 you fight Geth cause Reapers are controlling them, in ME3 you fight Geth cause Reapers are controlling them. In ME1 you have one AI on a SIDE mission mention the conflict and thats it. In ME2 you get EDI who doesn't turn on you at all and Legion who wants to help, in ME3 you realise the Geth aren't the evil ones either and you can broker peace. No where was this over-arching theme of synthetic vs organic. The only over-arching theme I can find is mystery. What are the Reapers? for ME1. Who are the Collectors and what do they want? ME2 and What is the Catalyst and what will the crucible do? in ME3.
Should of stuck with Dark Energy it was freaking written into a main mission in ME2, you can't just now suddenly make up a new theme and say it was always there. If ME4 has any hope of being a good game. Casey needs to not be involved and Drew needs to be back. ME1 & 2 were awesome! As was KOTOR and Drew was involved in all 3!

#88
NeonFlux117

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

I'm kidding. DA2 was bad, but it's got nothing on the debacle that will forever be ME3's ending and outcry. Never seen anything like it really. And that's gotta be worth something. 


Yeah, but at least ME3 had it's moments. The genophage arc didn't feel very rushed to me for example and was EXTREMELY satisfying at the end, even if I did bawl like a baby at Mordin's death. DA2 had like nothing that comes to mind or sticks. Hell, aside from running away from Fereldan, I don't even remember the plot of the game (Was there a plot?).

Though I do agree. DA2 has been just plain forgotten at this point, while ME3 will probably ALWAYS be remembered as the most... how did the EA PR team put it? 'The most passionate responce to a series ever'.



Yes, I agree DA2 was shameful. Not good to say the least. 

#89
Rhiens VI

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Jenonax wrote...

If you want that theme to work then the Geth/Quarian conflict must always 100% lead to the annahilation of one or more of the parties.  I should not be allowed to solve it no matter how hard I try or how much I love Legion and Tali.


This.

What I'm saying here is Show, don't tell.


And this.

It was a tragic oversight by Hudson's team. They let the player easily fix the potentially unfixable conflict, thus totally undermining credibility of the Catalyst and his agenda.

They should have let us create positive connections with certain AIs, namely EDI and Legion, and then pit us against the Inevitable: either Quarians or Geth are exterminated and there is nothing we can do.

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 21 mars 2013 - 11:27 .


#90
Steelcan

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So saving the Rachni queen or not ties into Synthetic/Organic, or curing the genophage vs sabotaging it? What about stopping Balak or letting him go free?

#91
crimzontearz

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

In my country we call that kinda statements "putting your hands forward"


I don't follow. :huh:


If you trip and fear you will actually fall you put your hands forward to break the eventual fall


 
Clearer now?

#92
Dr_Extrem

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Steelcan wrote...

So saving the Rachni queen or not ties into Synthetic/Organic, or curing the genophage vs sabotaging it? What about stopping Balak or letting him go free?


absolutely ... cause reasons ..

#93
Dr_Extrem

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crimzontearz wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

In my country we call that kinda statements "putting your hands forward"


I don't follow. :huh:


If you trip and fear you will actually fall you put your hands forward to break the eventual fall


 
Clearer now?


in other words .. "covering the own ... backside"

#94
LilyasAvalon

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Rhiens VI wrote...
It was a tragic oversight by Hudson's team. They let the player easily fix the potentially unfixable conflict, thus totally undermining credibility of the Catalyst and his agenda.

They should have let us create positive connections with certain AIs, namely EDI and Legion, and then pit us against the Inevitable: either Quarians or Geth are exterminated and there is nothing we can do.


Another excellent point this brings up is the overall feel of the game. For me, it was about beating impossible odds and succeeding. Why? Because I'm Commander ****ing Shepard. That's why.

I cured the Genophage, I brought peace between the Krogan, Salarians and Turians, I took down a Reaper ON FOOT, I brought peace between the Geth and Quarians, I got the Quarians back their homeworld, I brought a UNITED Galaxy against the Reaper Threat.

... But all of a sudden, if I refuse to submit to what the Catalyst wants, that's it? Game Over?

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 21 mars 2013 - 11:36 .


#95
Steelcan

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

So saving the Rachni queen or not ties into Synthetic/Organic, or curing the genophage vs sabotaging it? What about stopping Balak or letting him go free?


absolutely ... cause reasons ..

. This is just simply trying to cover their asses for suddenly forcing Synthetic vs Organic as the main theme in the last 20 minutes of the game.

#96
crimzontearz

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

In my country we call that kinda statements "putting your hands forward"


I don't follow. :huh:


If you trip and fear you will actually fall you put your hands forward to break the eventual fall


 
Clearer now?


in other words .. "covering the own ... backside"

yes...funny also, when you fall on your butt in my country we usually laugh and tell you "well, your butt does not have teeth"

#97
Dr_Extrem

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Steelcan wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

So saving the Rachni queen or not ties into Synthetic/Organic, or curing the genophage vs sabotaging it? What about stopping Balak or letting him go free?


absolutely ... cause reasons ..

. This is just simply trying to cover their asses for suddenly forcing Synthetic vs Organic as the main theme in the last 20 minutes of the game.


and not even in a subtile way.


the problem is, that the organic vs. synthetic theme was already dismantled in me2.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 21 mars 2013 - 11:34 .


#98
Steelcan

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Seriously does anyone buy this load of crap?

#99
LilyasAvalon

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

If you trip and fear you will actually fall you put your hands forward to break the eventual fall

Clearer now?


in other words .. "covering the own ... backside"


OH! Now I understand!

#100
crimzontearz

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Steelcan wrote...

Seriously does anyone buy this load of crap?

nope


 
And I find it sad that SHOOTER companies do a better job at introducing and handling an overarching theme than Bioware (a former RPG company through and through)