186 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Really, even the Geth/Quarian arc in ME3 doesn't tie much into any overarching theme of Organics vs Synthetics. I mean it could have done, absolutely, all the necessary elements are there.

But the way it's presented in game, it doesn't fit very well. There's no real exploration of what might fundamentally divide Organics from Synthetics, there's no real reason given to see this as anything truly different from the Salarian vs Krogans - it's just two races with a history of conflict that need to resolve this so we can go fight the reapers. Once they've got the Reaper code, the Geth are rather less alien than the Hanar, and Legion himself is very humanised.

I'd actually say ME2 has more to do with an Organic vs Synthetic theme than ME3 does, aside from the last few minutes and the DLC. ME2 interacts with that theme largely by rejecting it, while ME3 mostly ignores it. And ME2 does more to keep the Synthetics we interact with as definitely "other", alien in how they think

[Rhiens VI]

LilyasAvalon wrote...
For me, it was about beating impossible odds and succeeding. Why? Because I'm Commander ****ing Shepard. That's why.

Exactly. I did all theese awesome things, and then some AI construct dares to tell me that it was all for nothing. Of course, I am outraged and in denial.

They should have smacked Shepard's awesomeface against the wall of inevitability on Rannoch. Make the player think "Crap, maybe I'm not that overpowered after all".

But then again, I can imagine the whining: "we don't have a choice"," our choices don't matter","I don't want to loose Legion/Tali/Whoeverelse, it's not fun, Im heartbroken, I play games to win, waaaaah waaah". Can never please some people.

[Rhiens VI]

Wulfram wrote...

Once they've got the Reaper code, the Geth are rather less alien than the Hanar, and Legion himself is very humanised.

Over-humanized, I dare say. There is definitely a certain disconnect between ME2 and ME3 Geth, and it doesn't help the aforementioned "overarching theme" either.

[crimzontearz]

Rhiens VI wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...
For me, it was about beating impossible odds and succeeding. Why? Because I'm Commander ****ing Shepard. That's why.

Exactly. I did all theese awesome things, and then some AI construct dares to tell me that it was all for nothing. Of course, I am outraged and in denial.

They should have smacked Shepard's awesomeface against the wall of inevitability on Rannoch. Make the player think "Crap, maybe I'm not that overpowered after all".

But then again, I can imagine the whining: "we don't have a choice"," our choices don't matter","I don't want to loose Legion/Tali/Whoeverelse, it's not fun, Im heartbroken, I play games to win, waaaaah waaah". Can never please some people.

they have before, on Virmire. People were ok with it (mostly)


 
Also Legion dies regardless of your choice so I am not sure where you are going with that


 
ALSO, having a choice and making it matter are two different things, you are lumping all complaints into a rather unfair group

[Rhiens VI]

crimzontearz wrote...
Also Legion dies regardless of your choice so I am not sure where you are going with that

Ah right, i forgot, sorry.

ALSO, having a choice and making it matter are two different things, you are lumping all complaints into a rather unfair group

Shepard is presented with a choice to broker peace on Rannoch, but the attempt fails anyway.
Or, Shepard doesn't have a choice at all.
Outcome is basicly the same, and so are complaints.

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 21 mars 2013 - 12:31 .

[LilyasAvalon]

crimzontearz wrote...
]they have before, on Virmire. People were ok with it (mostly)
 
Also Legion dies regardless of your choice so I am not sure where you are going with that
 
ALSO, having a choice and making it matter are two different things, you are lumping all complaints into a rather unfair group

There's nothing wrong with sacrifice and reminding Shepard that they are only human, Virmire is a good example of that, as was Thessia falling, it's more, why push for something to be about facing impossible odds and coming through unscathed and then suddenly take it away at the end? At the very least, Refuse should've allowed you to beat the Reapers with a high enough EMS.

Also, Legion canon dieing was a bad writing decision in my opinion. For starters WHY did he need to die? Secondly, he's a data construct, all he'd have to do is upload a copy of himself somewhere else and he'd have been fine.

[MattFini]

If the Reapers themselves count in the organic vs. synthetic "theme" then it becomes further convoluted once the geth take up arms against the old machines.

So is synthetic vs. synthetic a theme of Mass Effect, too?

[LilyasAvalon]

MattFini wrote...

If the Reapers themselves count in the organic vs. synthetic "theme" then it becomes further convoluted once the geth take up arms against the old machines.

So is synthetic vs. synthetic a theme of Mass Effect, too?

Apparently. :/

What of EDI as well? Or the 'Virtual' Aliens?

[crimzontearz]

Rhiens VI wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
Also Legion dies regardless of your choice so I am not sure where you are going with that

Ah right, i forgot, sorry.

ALSO, having a choice and making it matter are two different things, you are lumping all complaints into a rather unfair group

Shepard is presented with a choice to broker peace on Rannoch, but the attempt fails anyway.
Or, Shepard doesn't have a choice at all.
Outcome is basicly the same, and so are complaints

Incorrect. You are misunderstanding my last statement (and utterly ignoring the first which leads me to believe you are doing so on purpose and this exchange is pretty useless then)

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I think? That the perception of the writers that specific story arcs became more important in the context of the main theme "organics vs. synthetics" was not sufficiently communicated to the players. The geth/quarian conflict and Legion's story do not appear to be more important than, say, the genophage arc. The first hint we get of the organic/synthetic theme being more important is is at the end of the Reaper Base mission on Rannoch.

The Reapers in ME1 pretty blatantly frame the conflict as organic/synthetic. If you listen to Sovereign everything is organic this, organic that. ME2 really toned down the organic VERSUS synthetic theme, though, by having more organics as enemies and more synthetics as allies.

[Eshaye]

I don't actually see the problem here, the theme was always about organic life vs robots, always. ME2 , the geth and EDI do not eliminate the theme they add to it, pointing that maybe the Reapers are wrong. At least that is my perspective on it. And it makes the Geth and EDI's sacrifice if you choose destroy, that much more poignant.

[Dr_Extrem]

Eshaye wrote...

I don't actually see the problem here, the theme was always about organic life vs robots, always. ME2 , the geth and EDI do not eliminate the theme they add to it, pointing that maybe the Reapers are wrong. At least that is my perspective on it. And it makes the Geth and EDI's sacrifice if you choose destroy, that much more poignant.

no it was not ..

if you would turn the reapers into giant space-walruses, who do what thes do, the theme would still be the same.

it is the classic "good vs. evil" theme.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 21 mars 2013 - 02:50 .

[Iakus]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

io9.com/5890421/10-things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-mass-effect


5. The over-arching theme of organics versus machines shaped all the story choices.

Once they had arrived at the notion of telling a story about organics versus machines, that became the "key theme," says Hudson. And that theme, in turn, "answered whether storylines were part of the main arc or smaller things. Stories about the Geth and the Quarian, the cautionary tale of creating artificial intelligence." Thus, the story of EDI in Mass Effect 2 becomes more important, because she goes from being a shackled to an "unshackled" A.I.


Well, what do you think?

I think they decided in ME3 that organics vs synthetics would become the main theme.  Then they dug through the first two games for "proof" afterwards. 

The Rachni Wars, the genophage, the Skyllian Blitz, Cerberus, the numerous, numerous battles with assorted mercs, the thorian, none of that had anything to do with organic-synthetic conflict. 

Calline it the central theme is no more meaningful than saying "I think that cloud looks like a bunny"

[MegaSovereign]

I always thought the over-arching theme was that technological advancements proliferates conflict. We see this when the Krogans were uplifted forcefully. Or when Quarians try to create an advanced machine race. Basically, this theme encompasses any and all conflicts presented in the game including Organics vs Synthetics.

I was hoping they went in this direction. And that they cited Shepard's previous accomplishments when confronting the Reaper king. Unfortunately what we ultimately got was nothing of this sort.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

I think they decided in ME3 that organics vs synthetics would become the main theme.  Then they dug through the first two games for "proof" afterwards. 

The Rachni Wars, the genophage, the Skyllian Blitz, Cerberus, the numerous, numerous battles with assorted mercs, the thorian, none of that had anything to do with organic-synthetic conflict. 

Calline it the central theme is no more meaningful than saying "I think that cloud looks like a bunny"

Well, in this case you're demonstrably wrong, since in the ME1 artbook the writers said that they realized during development that organics vs. synthetics was the main theme of ME1. /shrug

ME2 I agree that it is not the main theme.

[NCommand]

I sure killed a lot of Geth throughout my playthrough, there always was some uppity AI trying trying to wreck **** up

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

I think they decided in ME3 that organics vs synthetics would become the main theme.  Then they dug through the first two games for "proof" afterwards. 

The Rachni Wars, the genophage, the Skyllian Blitz, Cerberus, the numerous, numerous battles with assorted mercs, the thorian, none of that had anything to do with organic-synthetic conflict. 

Calline it the central theme is no more meaningful than saying "I think that cloud looks like a bunny"

Well, in this case you're demonstrably wrong, since in the ME1 artbook the writers said that they realized during development that organics vs. synthetics was the main theme of ME1. /shrug

ME2 I agree that it is not the main theme.

If that's the case then they failed hard at it, since I would never have guessed that without being told (no, making the primary enemy geth doesn't automatically make it an organic-synthetic conflict a theme).

If anything, I'd say the theme would have been "reach exceeding grasp" as over and over again we see attempts to study things without taking proper precautions ending disasterously.

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

I think they decided in ME3 that organics vs synthetics would become the main theme.  Then they dug through the first two games for "proof" afterwards. 

The Rachni Wars, the genophage, the Skyllian Blitz, Cerberus, the numerous, numerous battles with assorted mercs, the thorian, none of that had anything to do with organic-synthetic conflict. 

Calline it the central theme is no more meaningful than saying "I think that cloud looks like a bunny"

Well, in this case you're demonstrably wrong, since in the ME1 artbook the writers said that they realized during development that organics vs. synthetics was the main theme of ME1. /shrug

ME2 I agree that it is not the main theme.

the article was about the organic vs. synthetic theme being the overarching plot for the mass effect trilogy.


it was a big theme in mass effect 1 (by accident if you ask me, because the plot would have worked with the reapers/geth being something organic)

mass effect 2 dismantled it, by making shepard half synthetic, without combining it with internal conflicts. shepard accepts his/her new state of being a "transhuman" without struggle. in addition, the synthetic reapers become half organic as well. the theme changes from "organic vs. synthetic" purely to "good vs. evil".

[Giantdeathrobot]

Wut? That's just wrong.

What were the big choices in ME1? How to deal with the Thorian thralls, what to do with the Rachni queen, whenever to kill Ashley or Kaidan, and how to deal with Saren. None of these choices pit organics vs synthetics. The Geth were a prominent enemy, but they were Reaper-controlled, invalidating the argument. The Luna ''VI'' was hostile, but because it panicked, and it turned into EDI.

ME2? Pretty much nothing organic vs synthetic. Like, at all. Only sginficant synthetic presences were Good Girl EDI and Legion who made it clear the Geth are more than evil killbots. Only the resolution of Legion's loyalty mission is thematically close to the ending, everything else deals with the Collectors (again, Reaper-controlled) or daddy issues.

Hell, even in ME3 that's just not true. Your decision in the Tuchanka arc has nothing to do with organics vs synthetics. The Rannoch arc does, but that's it. There are no more major story decisions until the ending.

So out of all of them, 2 decisions have organics vs synthetics at their core, not counting the ending. That's hardly an ''over-arching theme'', sorry. And no, the Reaper conflict is not organics vs synthetics, which is born out of prejudice for each other. The Reapers want to exterminate everything, so everything fights back. It's cosmic horror story and plain survival, not organics vs synthetics. Not to mention the Reapers are half-organic themselves.

I mean, you could make a stronger case for daddy issues being the over-arching theme of the trilogy, honestly.

Modifié par Giantdeathrobot, 21 mars 2013 - 03:16 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
If that's the case then they failed hard at it, since I would never have guessed that without being told (no, making the primary enemy geth doesn't automatically make it an organic-synthetic conflict a theme).

If anything, I'd say the theme would have been "reach exceeding grasp" as over and over again we see attempts to study things without taking proper precautions ending disasterously.

I pretty much agree with you, just saying they have stated it was the main theme of ME1.

My personal opinion is that the theme of Mass Effect is the way in wich an individual with a strong enough will can change the course of history. I base this on the entire framework of the dialogue wheel system with Charm/Persuasion options, the way that Shepard always gets his way and becomes a messiah by ME3, and BioWar'es distinction of Mass Effect and Dragon Age, the latter being a series about the world and the former being a series about Shepard, and how like a hurricane he sweeps through the world changing everything.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 mars 2013 - 03:17 .

[Big Bad]

Casey's statement smells like a post-hoc justification for a poorly written ending. This has been covered already, but let's review one more time:

ME1 - Organics vs. Synthetics does seem to be a prominent theme, with the Geth and Reapers as enemies and a couple of side missions that deal with dangerous AI's.

ME2 - What we thought about synthetics in ME1 is upended. Turns out that most of the Geth were not allies of the Reapers, and the Reapers themselves are not fully synthetic. Plus, EDI and Legion are added to the cast of characters.

ME3 - The simplistic understanding of organics vs. synthetics is further complicated by the revelation that the Geth were actually the victims of the Morning War, not the aggressors. Furthermore, they allowed the Quarians to escape once the Geth were no longer in danger. Oh, and who reignites that war? It's the organics. And then we have the opportunity to make peace between the two sides and have the Geth join us in our battle against the Reapers.

Does any of this technically contradict the notion that synthetics will inevitably commit genocide against organics? No, of course not. But as the series progresses, it becomes increasingly apparent that the supposed conflicts between synthetic life and organic life have little to do with any fundamental differences between the two forms of life, but are simply due to the imperfect and fallible nature of all sentient beings, regardless of their organic or synthetic natures.

In short, if the inevitability of genocidal conflict between organics and synthetics introduced by the Catalyst is truly the over-arching theme of the series, Casey did an amazingly poor job of building up to that moment. It seems far more likely that Casey imposed this theme onto the series at the very last moment, regardless of what came before, which is why it seems to come so far out of left field.

Modifié par Big Bad, 21 mars 2013 - 03:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

Big Bad wrote...
In short, if the inevitability of genocidal conflict between organics and synthetics introduced by the Catalyst is truly the over-arching theme of the series, Casey did an amazingly poor job of building up to that moment. It seems far more likely that Casey imposed this theme onto the series at the very last moment, regardless of what came before, which is why it seems to come so far out of left field.

We don't know if it was Casey or Mac's idea. Mac's the writer of the two so I always assumed it was his idea.

One way you could interpret the endings with Leviathan though is to point out that this giant evil synthetic threat was pretty much a result of organic stupidity. You can either frame that as "everything is the organics' fault" or you could see it as another subversion of the expected "organics good synthetics bad" theme that ME1 had.

[archangel1996]

I laugh everytime the Catalyst makes his tupid monologue
"Jack, you see the flea like ship? They are the geth, and Yeah, now they are working with their creators"
"......They will attack them again"
"Yeah, but Sovereign kind of indoctrinated them to attack the organics"
".......You can not unerstand now choose"
"Wait a sec, why the rachni were indoctrinated before the beginning of the cycle?"
"......One more question and i will not allow to you to pick the green freak ending, i swear God i will take from you 2000 war assets *_*"

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I always thought the over-arching theme was that technological advancements proliferates conflict.

Ding, ding, ding. That's been in my mind since the first Mass Effect mentioned a 50,000-year cycle, though my perception about the Reapers' motives was also about the over-advancement and excessive sprawl of civilization, too. Synthetics are a product of advancement and unchecked ambition. 

[CosmicGnosis]

Maybe it's less about "organics vs. synthetics" and more about the nature of life and existence?

What does it mean to be alive? What is consciousness? How much does one's physical form matter?

These questions are definitely relevant to Mass Effect.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 21 mars 2013 - 03:56 .