186 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

... Are you kidding me? Are you really unable to grasp the fire analogy?

Catalyst = Forester
Reapers = Fire
Galaxy = Forest

The Catalyst directs where the Reapers go and what they destroy, just like a forester directs where a fire goes and what it burns. New life is allowed to flourish in the galaxy, just like new plant life is allowed to grow in a forest.

There. That's it. Frankly, I think you guys are just looking for excuses to hate the Catalyst, Mass Effect 3, and BioWare.

the analogy is total bs and not fitting a bit.

fire is something, that happens, if the requirements are met and it ends when the mix ratio is disturbed. fire as no choice - it has no intelligence and it only follows the lwas of physics.

the catalyst and the reapers have a choice and are intelligent (ok .. the catalyst using this analogy raises doubts).
the only thing this analogy tries to do, is to excuse the nature of the reapers. i dont buy it - especially, when the catalyst suddenly tires to find a different solution.

fire cant think of doing something different then burning. the catalyst can - analogy does not fit - finito

[SiriusXI]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

... Are you kidding me? Are you really unable to grasp the fire analogy?

Catalyst = Forester
Reapers = Fire
Galaxy = Forest

The Catalyst directs where the Reapers go and what they destroy, just like a forester directs where a fire goes and what it burns. New life is allowed to flourish in the galaxy, just like new plant life is allowed to grow in a forest.

There. That's it. Frankly, I think you guys are just looking for excuses to hate the Catalyst, Mass Effect 3, and BioWare.

This is not the same anlogy that the catalyst makes. This is what YOU say it means to convince yourself that the analogy is fitting.

Catalyst says that the reapers are just like fire, doing what they do. They are not at war with the galaxy because fire is not at war when it burns....

so:

Reapers = Fire. That's it! The other two things are YOUR additions (Catalyst = Forester, Galaxy = Forest).

The flaw here is, that there is no similarity between reapers an fire. Therefore the analogy falls flat.
Reapers are sentient - fire is not
Reapers have a motive - fire does not
Reapers (technically) preserve - fire does not
Reapers are machines (or cyborgs or whatever) - fire is a chemical reaction


If the catalyst had just destroyed life in the galaxy using a giant "organics-killing-explosion" or whatever, you could compare that to fire, but not the reapers.

[spirosz]

Lol.

[ZLurps]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Keep in mind that the "Synthetic vs Organic" conflict is much broader than most people seem to think and is not solely limited to robots and people going to war. It's an overarching tendency of organics at a certain point in their evolution to create machines, augmentations, or whatever that expand their abilities beyond organic capabilities and how the logical conclusion of that is that organics will be replaced entirely. Not because organics and synthetics hate each other yadda yadda (though admittedly it was phrased too much like this) but because organics simply become redundant at a certain point. The Catalyst's goal was to prevent this from happening, to allow races to grow to the point where evolution no longer was the sole dictator of their species fate. The harvest was in some ways done to protect developing races that had not reached that level of technology yet.

So yeah, when viewed on a broader level organic vs synthetic is a core theme of the entire series.

I don't know if it really was that much about people not getting it, but that delivery was awful and that said theme has been used in fiction for hundred years at least. I really expected BW to bring something fresh to the table, but for me it was just another piece of humanists trying to appear deep about things they have no ****ing clue.

actually no, that's not entirely correct to assume theirs is no clue, just because the actuality of the story is just hard to comprehend, much less fact based in real time.

Of course the story is old, they talk of billions of years, and evolution, a nature based reality of sorts, not exactly proven or disproven, the mass effect of evolution. But the "idea" of our involvement with technology and why it is a by product of nature is an interesting, if not brand new theme. If we Core the ethos in that framework and realize we're actually 'shaping nature' to suit our designs, cloud it in some delusion that it's needed to survive at the very "risk" of our natural abilities. I think that's an interesting, if not cosmic coincidence many don't realize as they synthesize with there favorite video game/ technology base.

All Of Your Basis Are Belong to Us..

What I meant, unless there is something to say that hasn't been said countless times in popular movies, comics and such, it's like saying water is wet.

They could have used the basis to explore AI's but then Disney AI thing happened which really defeated the whole idea of meaningful exploration such theme.

[GreyLycanTrope]

<_<

[MegaSovereign]

I know you feel this, bro.

My love is like a fire. I'm only doing what nature intended.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The EC was better, but still kept things vague enough to prevent any conclusion from being compelling, and still prevented an in-depth treatment of the matter by preventing Shepard from mentioning peace on Rannoch.

I don't think I'll ever understand why Rannoch is never mentioned by either Shepard or the Catalyst.

[Bill Casey]

Anyone who considers themselves to be a fire is either seriously disturbed, Donna Summer, or both...

[ZLurps]

Modifié par ZLurps, 24 mars 2013 - 11:15 .

[GoldenPersona]

My only issue with the overall theme they chose is why they chose it. Seriously, organic vs synthetics is a theme I've seen used too much and I've lost interest in the theme. Dark Energy, for however bad it's initial concept was, was actually a unique theme to ME and it didn't force it's way into the series.

The best plot twists and themes that are revealed at the end are the subtle ones. The ones you don't realize and remain hidden until revealed, and then you have this massive memory trip through the entire series where you are like "oh yeah! That's why that happened!". Also, when a story seems to pride itself on multiple themes, it's best not to pick up one of those themes and then blow it up as the main theme just because. I'm not a writer by profession, but even I know that. It needs to be a new theme to tie it all together, and they really didn't plan it well enough. Heck, with so many themes it would have just been better to keep the Reapers as mysterious giant cuttlefishbots bent on our annihilation because they can.

A good example of good plot twists is Persona 4. It's a mystery throughout the game why the MC never had to fight their Shadow to gain their Persona. As you play the game the issue gets put into the backdrop until, if you go the true end route, you realize that something still isn't right with the world. After some playing it gets revealed how the MC got his powers. It turns out to be the most subtle, unexpected, what the heck moment because how he got it was actually SPOILERS  WARNING during the tutorial from an NPC explaining game mechanics.

As it stands not only is organic vs. synthetic an overused theme, it was also made WAY too obvious in ME3. When compared to the powerful Genophage arc, it's hard to view the Quarian and Geth war as more important. I mean curing a disease that is wiping out an entire sentient organic species and forcing them to either try to produce in vain or become criminals actually feels far more personal than that stupid race war with the Quarians and Geth.

Hey, at least headcanon is a powerful tool. I always shoot the tube. I don't believe what the star child says. In my headcanon the Geth actually do survive, EDI just dies from the war. I mean why should I trust that it really will kill all synthetics? My Shepard is alive because of synthetics, so shouldn't she die? Nope, my Shepard lived to have (nonalcoholic for my FemShep) beers with Garrus. EDI gets rebuilt because space magic, and the Geth are absent from the slides because they are out getting dextro pizzas for the Quarians. Everyone has a party on top of the Reaper corpses.

10 years later the once united Galaxy is back to shooting each other because we are all unique, and we don't like unique. Shepard just says screw it and lives happily with Liara and their blue children as the galaxy destroys itself and Star Child's prophecy comes true. Turns out the Quarians and Geth went back to war with each other because a Geth decided to put earth food on one of the pizzas as a joke.

Good old headcanon.

Modifié par GoldenPersona, 24 mars 2013 - 12:18 .

[SiriusXI]

GoldenPersona wrote...

My only issue with the overall theme they chose is why they chose it. Seriously, organic vs synthetics is a theme I've seen used too much and I've lost interest in the theme. Dark Energy, for however bad it's initial concept was, was actually a unique theme to ME and it didn't force it's way into the series.

The best plot twists and themes that are revealed at the end are the subtle ones. The ones you don't realize and remain hidden until revealed, and then you have this massive memory trip through the entire series where you are like "oh yeah! That's why that happened!". Also, when a story seems to pride itself on multiple themes, it's best not to pick up one of those themes and then blow it up as the main theme just because. I'm not a writer by profession, but even I know that. It needs to be a new theme to tie it all together, and they really didn't plan it well enough. Heck, with so many themes it would have just been better to keep the Reapers as mysterious giant cuttlefishbots bent on our annihilation because they can.

A good example of good plot twists is Persona 4. It's a mystery throughout the game why the MC never had to fight their Shadow to gain their Persona. As you play the game the issue gets put into the backdrop until, if you go the true end route, you realize that something still isn't right with the world. After some playing it gets revealed how the MC got his powers. It turns out to be the most subtle, unexpected, what the heck moment because how he got it was actually SPOILERS  WARNING during the tutorial from an NPC explaining game mechanics.

As it stands not only is organic vs. synthetic an overused theme, it was also made WAY too obvious in ME3. When compared to the powerful Genophage arc, it's hard to view the Quarian and Geth war as more important. I mean curing a disease that is wiping out an entire sentient organic species and forcing them to either try to produce in vain or become criminals actually feels far more personal than that stupid race war with the Quarians and Geth.

Hey, at least headcanon is a powerful tool. I always shoot the tube. I don't believe what the star child says. In my headcanon the Geth actually do survive, EDI just dies from the war. I mean why should I trust that it really will kill all synthetics? My Shepard is alive because of synthetics, so shouldn't she die? Nope, my Shepard lived to have (nonalcoholic for my FemShep) beers with Garrus. EDI gets rebuilt because space magic, and the Geth are absent from the slides because they are out getting dextro pizzas for the Quarians. Everyone has a party on top of the Reaper corpses.

10 years later the once united Galaxy is back to shooting each other because we are all unique, and we don't like unique. Shepard just says screw it and lives happily with Liara and their blue children as the galaxy destroys itself and Star Child's prophecy comes true. Turns out the Quarians and Geth went back to war with each other because a Geth decided to put earth food on one of the pizzas as a joke.

Good old headcanon.

I agree, but what's up with your signature? How can you be 100% satisfied with ME3 when the only way to accept the enings is to headcanon the majority of it? Don't you mean you are satisfied with your headcanon applied to ME3? The very fact that you have to resort to headcanon is already proof that you were not 100% satisfied.

[GoldenPersona]

SiriusXI wrote...

I agree, but what's up with your signature? How can you be 100% satisfied with ME3 when the only way to accept the enings is to headcanon the majority of it? Don't you mean you are satisfied with your headcanon applied to ME3? The very fact that you have to resort to headcanon is already proof that you were not 100% satisfied.

EDIT because of tl;dr

Except the ending wasn't bad enough for me to ruin the experience. Prior to the ending I had spent 40 hours watching all the issues that were building up in the trilogy come to a close (I cured the genophage and achieved peace between the Geth and Quarians) and the game left me feeling satisfied. Playing as an Inflitrator was more fun than ever, I had awe moments during the genophage arc (seeing the Krogan looking to the sky as the cure spreads hope was very emotional for me). Overall it was a great 40 hour experience. It didn't ruin the trilogy for me.

As for headcanon, I'm used to it. It comes with being an anime fan. It wasn't that I need to, I just like to.

As for the pizza...it was just for shameless comedy. The Geth are pieces under rubbel....

Modifié par GoldenPersona, 24 mars 2013 - 01:21 .