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The Fallacy of Player-Earned Heroism


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#1
David7204

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I firmly believe that one of the most magnificent qualities of Mass Effect and Commander Shepard is that throughout the series, Shepard is faced with numerous challenges that would render any other character helpless. And Shepard is able to find a better way. To take a third option. And not because Shepard is lucky, or because of nonsense science or contrived circumstances like so many other stories resort to – but because Shepard is smart. Because his or her arguments are genuinely outstanding. Becauses/he's a hero. I believe this an integral part of the incredible affection and respect for Shepard.

But not everyone agrees with me. Plenty of people have suggested that Mass Effect would be much better if such 'third options' were taken away. Charm and intimidate options, basically. The option to defend Tali during her trial with no evidence. The option to make peace between the quarians and geth. Dozens of other options throughout the series.

The biggest argument supporting this seems to be that such heroism is meaningless because it's the result of a 'button press.' That choosing to take such options is nothing but an 'easy win button.' that renders the conflict moot. That heroism needs to be 'earned' by the player or else it doesn't mean anything.

But I don't think that's true in the slightest. Think about something for a minute.

When you read a book like Harry Potter, nothing is really required of you. You have to know how to read, obviously, and you have to put in the hours and the focus, but those things are trifles.

The same for a film such as Lord of the Rings. You have to pay attention to appreciate the story, but that's it. Nothing is required of you as an audience. And yet for both stories, there's no doubt that characters have heroic qualities.

(I tried to pick examples everyone will be familiar with. If you don't like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, just replace them with a book and film you do like.)

It's considered perfectly acceptable for our character to be a savant in combat with a few button presses. It's perfectly acceptable for him or her to be a tech genius and a master biotic. Or consider an RPG like Fallout, where it's perfectly acceptable for our character to learn everything there is to know about science and medicine within a few hours of easy gameplay. But players complain that it's unacceptable to be a hero as a 'result' of a button press. Why?

We're the players. All we can ever do is press buttons. That’s the only contribution we can possibility make to the story. Any action, any input is going to be the 'result' of a button press. Saying that heroism is invalid because it’s the 'result' of button press cannot be true because it would mean that every element ofevery story in every game must be invalid as well.

So back to my question. What is the difference between a video game like Mass Effect and other heroic stories in literature and film? What's the difference between Shepard being a hero as the result of a button press and excelling in combat as the result of a button press? The answer is that there is no difference. The answer is that the idea that a difference must exist comes from an incomplete understanding of where characters and character qualities in video games come from.

But that alone isn't a satisfying answer, is it? Because that alone fails to address the legitimate concern behind all of this. You want heroism to be meaningful. You want it to be based on courage, skill, strength, experience, competence, ideals.

And indeed it is. It's based on Shepard’s strength and skill and ideals and heroism. Shepard’s qualities. Or the qualities of whatever protagonist you happen to be playing.

The truth is this: Shepard’s heroism, and indeed the heroism of any character in a video game, is not actually derived from a button press at all. It’s derived from Shepard’s status as a courageous, intelligent, and heroic character. This is the source of heroism, and every other quality in all stories. That does not change for video games simply because they're video games. Understanding this is the crux to appreciating the proper source of not only heroism, but all character qualities in video games.

Not only is this fallacy harmful because it dismisses and trivializes heroism and other qualities, it’s harmful in that it leads to impossible and contradictory standards for what a game and story should be.

The Mass Effect 2 ending has received some criticism on the BSN for being too easy. Criticism that heroism doesn't matter because the player shouldn't be able to easily have the entire team survive. But how can that be a legitimate complaint when any 'perfect ending' is going to be easy? When any ending, period, is going to be easy? By its very definition, a game cannot be tedious or frustrating or inaccessible. Otherwise it wouldn't be a game.

Well, actually, that's not true, is it?

Could a developer end the story with a ridiculously difficult and frustrating combat encounter and only award a 'perfect' ending to players who beat it? Absolutely.

Could a developer ask players to solve complex calculus equations and give better outcomes for right answers, on the grounds that smart players (and thus protagonists) deserve better results? Sure they could.

Could a developer give the player an incredibly tedious puzzle or task to complete and reward them for slogging through it? Easily.

And look what's happened. The core of the experience has collapsed. What was supposed to be a game is now a chore. What was supposed to be entertainment is now a headache. Are you going to walk away from that experience with a dropped jaw and a rush of excitement, eager for more? No. You'll walk away glad to have it over and done with. And indeed many games have done such things, and been worse for it.

Right about now you might be thinking "Well I play games on the highest difficulty setting, and I still have plenty of fun!" Well that's great for you. But games always need to be accessible. If your product is fun for 5% of players and frustrating for 95% of players, then you've failed as a designer. And if the hardest difficulty is still doable and fun for most players, then it isn't actually that hard at all. And now we've gone full circle - we're back to complaining the victory is unfulfilling because the game is too easy!

Likewise, you might be someone who actually finds solving calculus equations to be fun and satisfying. But rest assured you're in the minority. And if everyone actually did find calculus fun, again, we're right back where we started - complaining that the game is too easy! This will hold true for any task.

That's not to say at all that a game can't have challenges – because they absolutely should. And indeed, the persuasive options in Mass Effect do require reputation or points in the skill. Getting a perfect ending in ME 2 does require you to know your squad well enough to pick the right people and complete the loyalty missions. It doesn't have to be completely free. But a game challenge has to be exactly that – a game challenge.

Modifié par David7204, 21 mars 2013 - 05:51 .


#2
crimzontearz

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In every media you will find people who will advocate that "this would be better if it was more mature grimdark and realistic by letting -insert catastrophically bleak event on whatever scale here- happen"

There is nothing wrong with those kinds of narratives, at all, there are many examples out there like Game of Thrones....the problem presents itself when this specific crowd begins to advocate that a previously "epic heroic saga" should be converted to a "tragic heroic saga" because that is what they like better.

Such thing is pure idiocy...like people advocating that rocksteady should kill batman in B:AA because it is more mature and deep. The reverse is true as well, Demon souls is a BLEAK game, advocating to turn it to a LOTR style narrative is juat unfair.

The second problem is hypocrisy, one of these two crowds, when faced with the OPTION to have two outcomes (one bleaker than the other) will whine because it was not forced.....which makes them hypocrites, if they like better to have a bleaker outcome then they would have no problem choosing so, the other option should not matter.....but it does because given the option they MIGHT pick the happier outcome





TLDR...pick your narratives depending on your tastes and do not try to ruin it for others

#3
MegaSovereign

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I have no problem with it being too "easy." I have a problem with some of the "third option" scenarios not making much sense.

For example, ending a 300 year old conflict by shouting at an Admiral is hard to take seriously. It also sets a precedence that any and all conflicts in the MEverse can be solved by taking the third option. So when the time comes when Bioware decides that a moral dilemma is what they want to pursue, players will complain because they feel entitled to a better option given what was presented beforehand.

There's a fine balance between avoiding nihilism/realism and not trying to give every morally ambiguous conflict an easy way out. I feel like the Arrival DLC was on the extreme side of the former, where your hands were forced and no choices were even given. The Genophage arc was quite possibly one of the few parts of the game where the "third option" doesn't undermine the conflict at hand. (EDIT: By third option, I meant having Wrex and Eve alive being "optimal" while curing the Genophage)

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 21 mars 2013 - 02:32 .


#4
Xilizhra

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For example, ending a 300 year old conflict by shouting at an Admiral is hard to take seriously. It also sets a precedence that any and all conflicts in the MEverse can be solved by taking the third option. So when the time comes when Bioware decides that a moral dilemma is what they want to pursue, players will complain because they feel entitled to a better option given what was presented beforehand.

Well, that is indeed what happened with the ending. But despite making peace with that, I still have no problems with third options. And it's not just that you're shouting at an admiral, it's that if said admiral doesn't back off, the entire Migrant Fleet will die.

#5
Steelcan

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I'm going to have to agree with David on this....., reluctantly

#6
CronoDragoon

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David7204 wrote...

But not everyone agrees with me. Plenty of people have suggested that Mass Effect would be much better if such 'third options' were taken away. Charm and intimidate options, basically. The option to defend Tali during her trial with no evidence. The option to make peace between the quarians and geth.Dozens of other options throughout the series.

The biggest argument supporting this seems to be that such heroism is meaningless because it's the result of a 'button press.' That choosing to take such options is nothing but an 'easy win button.' that renders the conflict moot. That heroism needs to be 'earned' by the player or else it doesn't mean anything.


If the Mass Effect 3 ending is really the tone that BioWare wanted to end the series with, then Charm/Persuasion options make less sense throughout the series. In my mind, you should either allow the player to conquer a situation through heroism, or you shouldn't, and you should be consistent in that structure during the entire story. As I see it, since Charm/Persuasion were already established in ME1/ME2, they should have been implemented in the endings.

Now, I used to say that the Charm/Persuasion options in Tali's LM and Rannoch undermine the conflict, but now I'm not so sure.

Tali's LM does a bad job framing the Charm/Persuasion dialogue. It seems like Shepard is just yelling and bypassing the underlying conflict of her mission. In actuality the principle behind what he is saying is relevant, due to what Koris says the trial is about: he says it's not a question of her loyalty, but her judgment. If you keep that in mind, Shepard's rant about Tali helping him beat Sovereign, etc, makes more sense and doesn't seem like quite such an "I win" button. He is in essence establishing the results of Tali's solid character, and therefore her judgment. This combined with him embarassing the admirals about their own bias in this trial forms an acceptable Charm/Persuasion option, I think.

Rannoch is not just solving the conflict through yelling, because yelling is not an option for you if you don't put yourself in a position for everyone to trust you. Shepard's true "heroism" are all his actions leading up to that Rannoch decision wherein he paved the way for peace; through his actions he earns the trust of Tali, Koris, Raan, and Legion, and by earning the trust of the leaders of the conflict he has opened them up to the possibility of standing down.

So yeah, I've changed my mind about these options. I think they're fine.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 mars 2013 - 02:46 .


#7
Ieldra

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OP:
As a rule, you have my full agreement.

There are, however, situations where the same reasoning doesn't apply, where it doesn't make sense that you get an option to circumvent a problem because - its solution can't reasonably depend on your protagonist and their persuasion skills, or if it does, it makes other characters lose presence which they shouldn't use. ME3's ending is a good example - you can't convince the Catalyst of anything, and that's good.

Also, if I get persuasion options to solve a problem, I want my protagonist to say something smart, something that's actually convincing. It can be a threat or it can be diplomacy, but it absolutely must be convincing. You said Shepard's smart? Well, all too often they're not. Many persuasion options shouldn't work because they are too stupid. Yes, give me such options, but create them in a way that I can be proud of my protagonist, not frustrated by the sheer idiocy it takes for the opposition to be persuaded by such crap

   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 mars 2013 - 03:14 .


#8
Han Shot First

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crimzontearz wrote...

In every media you will find people who will advocate that "this would be better if it was more mature grimdark and realistic by letting -insert catastrophically bleak event on whatever scale here- happen"


On the flipside there also people who are unwilling to accept any ending that doesn't result in sunshine and rainbows. I know someone who rage quit the Game of Throne series because at the end, a certain main character ends up headless.

This person thinks the series was ruined by that event, while I thought it was an amazing twist and it made me go out and purchase the books.

I disagree both with the people who think a story must be grimdark or realistic in order to be good, and those who think every story must have a happy ending. Whether an ending is happy, bittersweet, or grimdark it can be good, depending on how it was written and whether or not it was a good fit for the story that preceded it.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 mars 2013 - 03:22 .


#9
crimzontearz

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Han Shot First wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

In every media you will find people who will advocate that "this would be better if it was more mature grimdark and realistic by letting -insert catastrophically bleak event on whatever scale here- happen"


On the flipside there also people who are unwilling to accept any ending that doesn't result in sunshine and rainbows. I know someone who rage quit the Game of Throne series because at the end, a certain main character ends up headless.

This person thinks the series was ruined by that event, while I thought it was an amazing twist and it made me go out and purchase the books.

I disagree both with the people who think a story must be grimdark or realistic in order to be good, and those who think every story must have a happy ending. Whether an ending is happy, bittersweet, or grimdark it can be good, depending on how it was written and whether or not it was a good fit for the story that preceded it.


I said that in my post as well Han

#10
FlyingSquirrel

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Some of this is just the limitations of interactive single-player gaming. I suppose the ideal solution would be if we actually had to type in dialogue for Shepard to say instead of being given different choices to click, and then the program would somehow evaluate what we said and decide whether it's sufficient to talk somebody off the cliff or whatever it is we're trying to accomplish.

I'm no tech expert, but I assume that either simply isn't possible or would be such a herculean task that it would take forever to finish programming the game.

#11
shodiswe

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All this does is remind me how much better priority Earth and the endings could have been, especialy priority Earth.

As with the "Admiral" you win that because Gerrel is effectively outvoted by the other admirals objecting to his decition to attack. The Admiralty board decided against his actions, and some part of him might realize they are right because he does respect them somewhat.
So it's not just Shepards shouting that does it. With out the Peace loving Admiral of the Civilian fleet who wants Peace and Talis support you can't shout him down no matter how hard you try.
So it's not Shepards charisma or shouting but the fact that Shepard is planning and preparing a political leverage for Peace. This is what Shepard tells the Admiral vas quibquib.

So, it's "1" part political tactics and one part charisma and reputation. I actualy liked that setup. It could have been even more intricate but it worked imo.

#12
Archonsg

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I am willing to bet that a good portion of those who want a better ending, a "unicorns and rainbows" endings are of the older generation as I am.

In all honesty, I have had more than my fair share of life's hard knocks.

I have experienced a loved one's suicide because she and her family could not deal with rape, had been in the position to save someone, only to have her die mearly an hour before my rescue crew could reach her burried under rubble, have seen bodies blown up, and more.

I don't need my entertainment to tell me, to make me feel like crap, the world has done its share already.

To me, anyone who advocates such or think grim events and "liking" them equates maturity, needs a little of maturing in the real world and suffer real loss.

I prefer my fantasies and entertainment to be uplifting, and well, entertaining, thank you very much.

#13
CaptainZaysh

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David, it's not that it's too easy for the player, it's that it's too easy for Shepard.

#14
crimzontearz

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Archonsg wrote...

I am willing to bet that a good portion of those who want a better ending, a "unicorns and rainbows" endings are of the older generation as I am.

In all honesty, I have had more than my fair share of life's hard knocks.

I have experienced a loved one's suicide because she and her family could not deal with rape, had been in the position to save someone, only to have her die mearly an hour before my rescue crew could reach her burried under rubble, have seen bodies blown up, and more.

I don't need my entertainment to tell me, to make me feel like crap, the world has done its share already.

To me, anyone who advocates such or think grim events and "liking" them equates maturity, needs a little of maturing in the real world and suffer real loss.

I prefer my fantasies and entertainment to be uplifting, and well, entertaining, thank you very much.

Casey and Mac thought the ending to ME3 was uplifting and that we just were too dim to understand it and we required further explanation


 
On a happier note, play Crysis 3...irs ending and post credits tag will make you happy

#15
David7204

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I acknowledge that people may not like every charm and intimidate option, but that's really not relevant. Surely we can all agree that at least some of the charm and intimidate options are well-done, which proves the practice is sound in theory if nothing else.

In any case, I'm not convinced at all that any of the charm options are anything remotely close to 'idiocy.' They're certainly leaps and bounds over any speech option I've seen in any other game.

Modifié par David7204, 21 mars 2013 - 06:01 .


#16
crimzontearz

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David7204 wrote...

I acknowledge that people may not like every charm and intimidate option, but that's really not relevant. Surely we can all agree that at least some of the charm and intimidate options are well-done.

In any case, I'm not convinced at all that any of the charm options are anything remotely close to 'idiocy.' They're certainly leaps and bounds over any speech option I've seen in any other game.

they are not and they could be implemented in gameplay like in Deus Ex  HR

#17
Ridwan

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Just have options, those that insist of getting the super dark depressing choices because it's oh so mature can have that. I'll pick whatever choice that makes me and the character I play feel like a boss and ride on towards my happy ending.

#18
crimzontearz

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M25105 wrote...

Just have options, those that insist of getting the super dark depressing choices because it's oh so mature can have that. I'll pick whatever choice that makes me and the character I play feel like a boss and ride on towards my happy ending.

read my post, some of the people pushing for the grimdark stuff don't even want the option....apparently it invalidates their own alternative (I call that hypocrisy)

#19
Ridwan

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crimzontearz wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Just have options, those that insist of getting the super dark depressing choices because it's oh so mature can have that. I'll pick whatever choice that makes me and the character I play feel like a boss and ride on towards my happy ending.

read my post, some of the people pushing for the grimdark stuff don't even want the option....apparently it invalidates their own alternative (I call that hypocrisy)


They should get over themselves then and realise that not everyone cares for the super depressing stuff. Life is hard enough, I don't need the game I'm playing to act like some depressed teenage girl telling me "Life sucks and then you die".

#20
iOnlySignIn

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I agree 100%.

Shame that writing all that long post won't change a thing though.

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

#21
Kabooooom

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Archonsg wrote...

To me, anyone who advocates such or think grim events and "liking" them equates maturity, needs a little of maturing in the real world and suffer real loss.
 


I don't know man, I too have experienced considerable loss - ex-gf overdosed and died, friend committed suicide because his ****head fundie parents wouldnt accept his homosexuality, via a gunshot, poetically, through his heart- among a great many other things...and I'm in my late 20's. Still, I prefer dark entertainment, with my favorite genres being the tragedy and dark comedy.

It depends on the person's individual tastes. Those that can't deal with loss or need an escape probably prefer happy go lucky entertainment, those who accept it as a natural part of life may prefer entertainment that reflects that (like me) and still others may have tastes that do not reflect their life experiences in any way whatsoever.

I think you are oversimplifying there, and in a fashion that is borderline offensive because it presumes others haven't experienced loss as you have, or belittles that loss by comparison.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 21 mars 2013 - 06:27 .


#22
crimzontearz

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M25105 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Just have options, those that insist of getting the super dark depressing choices because it's oh so mature can have that. I'll pick whatever choice that makes me and the character I play feel like a boss and ride on towards my happy ending.

read my post, some of the people pushing for the grimdark stuff don't even want the option....apparently it invalidates their own alternative (I call that hypocrisy)


They should get over themselves then and realise that not everyone cares for the super depressing stuff. Life is hard enough, I don't need the game I'm playing to act like some depressed teenage girl telling me "Life sucks and then you die".


You will not find me disagreeing

#23
Archonsg

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Kabooooom wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

To me, anyone who advocates such or think grim events and "liking" them equates maturity, needs a little of maturing in the real world and suffer real loss.
 


I don't know man, I too have experienced considerable loss - ex-gf overdosed and died, friend committed suicide because his ****head fundie parents wouldnt accept his homosexuality, via a gunshot, poetically, through his heart- among a great many other things...and I'm in my late 20's. Still, I prefer dark entertainment, with my favorite genres being the tragedy and dark comedy.

It depends on the person's individual tastes. Those that can't deal with loss or need an escape probably prefer happy go lucky entertainment, those who accept it as a natural part of life may prefer entertainment that reflects that (like me) and still others may have tastes that do not reflect their life experiences in any way whatsoever.

I think you are oversimplifying there, and in a fashion that is borderline offensive because it presumes others haven't experienced loss as you have, or belittles that loss by comparison.



The difference is that while you prefer or like "grimdark" conclusions you do understand that not everyone else does nor does it equates maturity as some pro-enders seem to think.

The difference is that you can and do allow for options, if given that route.

As another post above points out, it is as if having the option for a happy ending, somehow invalidates their choice, their ending.
It does not.

As to the OP's post, I do agree with him for the most part. Gaming has taken more pains to make it accessible to everyone, but in doing so has inevitably been "dumbed down".
I remember a space flight sim that I really enjoyed, it took physics *very seriously* and thus flight dynamics were very very different than what many were used to. (eg; you kept going in the direction and speed of applied thrust untill thrust is applied to change one's direction. Change of direction wasn't immediate nor is one's flight path "straight" requiring you to mentally guess / calculate where you need to be given planetary gravity wells. 

Needless to say, it wasn't very popular.

Thus *everything* we do now, including "winning" *is* literally at a push of a button.

Do I miss the days of the late 80s and 90's "Hardcore" gaming?
Gods no! (corpse runs, anyone?)
Do I miss that "skill" other than reflexes are required to "win" a game these days?
Yes.

Modifié par Archonsg, 21 mars 2013 - 07:09 .


#24
crimzontearz

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There is a lovely video on Extra Creditz about depth vs complexity you might like

#25
dreamgazer

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.


And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.