87 réponses à ce sujet

[Oni Changas]

crimzontearz wrote...

In every media you will find people who will advocate that "this would be better if it was more mature grimdark and realistic by letting -insert catastrophically bleak event on whatever scale here- happen"

There is nothing wrong with those kinds of narratives, at all, there are many examples out there like Game of Thrones....the problem presents itself when this specific crowd begins to advocate that a previously "epic heroic saga" should be converted to a "tragic heroic saga" because that is what they like better.

Such thing is pure idiocy...like people advocating that rocksteady should kill batman in B:AA because it is more mature and deep. The reverse is true as well, Demon souls is a BLEAK game, advocating to turn it to a LOTR style narrative is juat unfair.

The second problem is hypocrisy, one of these two crowds, when faced with the OPTION to have two outcomes (one bleaker than the other) will whine because it was not forced.....which makes them hypocrites, if they like better to have a bleaker outcome then they would have no problem choosing so, the other option should not matter.....but it does because given the option they MIGHT pick the happier outcome





TLDR...pick your narratives depending on your tastes and do not try to ruin it for others

Winner.

[Reorte]

In the ideal game anything that could conceivably happen should be able to happen, no matter how unlikely. Getting those unlikely outcomes should be equally difficult (and lucky) though. So in pricipal I've no problem at all with the third way, Mass Effect's only problem is that it was often too easy. Of course if you metagame then it'll always be easy, as would achieving the seemingly impossible in real life if you could try again and look up the results of your actions beforehand but that shouldn't be a reason to remove such possibilities from the game.

[iOnlySignIn]

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.

Which game is that?

[dreamgazer]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.

Which game is that?

This one.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

My only real problem with the "Charm/Intimidate" options is when they are exclusively the result of Shepard being a person of a certain repute. For example, while I don't have a problem with the text in Tali's trial speech, the fact that Shepard can suddenly ascend to the heights of eloquence (even though he's not that eloquent) simply because he's been good or bad makes it seem far too easy. That's why I much prefer the option of rallying the crowd, and believe that it should be the only way to successfully complete the mission.

[Archonsg]

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.

Which game is that?

This one.

And that is why you don't pre-order.
I have say, one good thing that came out of ME3's ending for me is that when I hear vague descriptions and fluffing claims for a game, warning bells goes off and my CC stays in my wallet.

[dreamgazer]

Archonsg wrote...

And that is why you don't pre-order.
I have say, one good thing that came out of ME3's ending for me is that when I hear vague descriptions and fluffing claims for a game, warning bells goes off and my CC stays in my wallet.

Meh. I won't let a wonky ending scratch out the enjoyment that I had leading up to it. 

[Megaton_Hope]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

My only real problem with the "Charm/Intimidate" options is when they are exclusively the result of Shepard being a person of a certain repute. For example, while I don't have a problem with the text in Tali's trial speech, the fact that Shepard can suddenly ascend to the heights of eloquence (even though he's not that eloquent) simply because he's been good or bad makes it seem far too easy. That's why I much prefer the option of rallying the crowd, and believe that it should be the only way to successfully complete the mission.

I think that they might be heading for a two-pronged approach, where your character's charisma determines the ability to give a certain speech, and their reputation (with a particular audience?) determines its chance for success.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
My only real problem with the "Charm/Intimidate" options is when they are exclusively the result of Shepard being a person of a certain repute. For example, while I don't have a problem with the text in Tali's trial speech, the fact that Shepard can suddenly ascend to the heights of eloquence (even though he's not that eloquent) simply because he's been good or bad makes it seem far too easy. That's why I much prefer the option of rallying the crowd, and believe that it should be the only way to successfully complete the mission.

I can sort of see the reasoning behind it, and in a way it does address the potential problem of Shepard simply giving an eloquent speech by "button-press." That is, as Shepard gets more practiced at using verbal persuasion, (s)he gets better at it. It might be better if dialogue choices and action choices were tracked separately - I'm not sure that uploading intel on Cerberus to the Alliance should make Shepard better at giving Paragon speeches, or that roughing up Elias Kelham should make Shepard better at giving Renegade speeches.

[CronoDragoon]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

My only real problem with the "Charm/Intimidate" options is when they are exclusively the result of Shepard being a person of a certain repute. For example, while I don't have a problem with the text in Tali's trial speech, the fact that Shepard can suddenly ascend to the heights of eloquence (even though he's not that eloquent) simply because he's been good or bad makes it seem far too easy. That's why I much prefer the option of rallying the crowd, and believe that it should be the only way to successfully complete the mission.

What happens when you rally the crowd and don't Charm/Persuade?

[Argolas]

I liked it better when we had to invest skill points in Charm and Intimidate like we did in ME1. We had to pay the price of not being able to invest these points in other abilities. That already makes persuasion options feel better earned without being unfair.

[RedBeardJim]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

My only real problem with the "Charm/Intimidate" options is when they are exclusively the result of Shepard being a person of a certain repute. For example, while I don't have a problem with the text in Tali's trial speech, the fact that Shepard can suddenly ascend to the heights of eloquence (even though he's not that eloquent) simply because he's been good or bad makes it seem far too easy. That's why I much prefer the option of rallying the crowd, and believe that it should be the only way to successfully complete the mission.

What happens when you rally the crowd and don't Charm/Persuade?

Reegar and Veetor get up and yell at the admirals on Tali's behalf, and they drop the charges. You get Tali's loyalty, but not the big pile of Paragon or Renegade points. You can only do this if Reegar is still alive (obviously) and if you didn't hand Veetor over to Cerberus, and if you talked to them both before heading to the Alarei.

Modifié par RedBeardJim, 21 mars 2013 - 10:56 .

[CronoDragoon]

RedBeardJim wrote...

Reegar and Veetor get up and yell at the admirals on Tali's behalf, and they drop the charges. You get Tali's loyalty, but not the big pile of Paragon or Renegade points. You can only do this if Reegar is still alive (obviously) and if you didn't hand Veetor over to Cerberus, and if you talked to them both before heading to the Alarei.

So it's basically another Paragon choice disguised as the neutral choice, that makes a bit more sense but doesn't get you Paragon points? Interesting.

[RedBeardJim]

CronoDragoon wrote...

RedBeardJim wrote...

Reegar and Veetor get up and yell at the admirals on Tali's behalf, and they drop the charges. You get Tali's loyalty, but not the big pile of Paragon or Renegade points. You can only do this if Reegar is still alive (obviously) and if you didn't hand Veetor over to Cerberus, and if you talked to them both before heading to the Alarei.

So it's basically another Paragon choice disguised as the neutral choice, that makes a bit more sense but doesn't get you Paragon points? Interesting.

Actually, I just re-checked and I was wrong -- you do get the Paragon points for this option.

[Dendio1]

the bioshock infinite claim of a tantalizing ending has lit the first spark of my interest in the game.

However, if the game as a whole is little more than bioshock 1 in the sky ill pass

[Xilizhra]

simfamSP wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

In every media you will find people who will advocate that "this would be better if it was more mature grimdark and realistic by letting -insert catastrophically bleak event on whatever scale here- happen"

On the flipside there also people who are unwilling to accept any ending that doesn't result in sunshine and rainbows. I know someone who rage quit the Game of Throne series because at the end, a certain main character ends up headless.

This person thinks the series was ruined by that event, while I thought it was an amazing twist and it made me go out and purchase the books.

I disagree both with the people who think a story must be grimdark or realistic in order to be good, and those who think every story must have a happy ending. Whether an ending is happy, bittersweet, or grimdark it can be good, depending on how it was written and whether or not it was a good fit for the story that preceded it.

Pretty much this.

Dragon Age: Origins' endings were great because they matched the mood of the story, both the sacrafice and the ritual, in the end: you save the world (which was inevitable considering that the franchise is all about shaping Thedas, not just the confined spaces where the game set you in.) The game was set up to be a grand adventure, a Lord of the Rings with all the naughty bits put in, and that's what is turned out to be.

However, I think Dragon Age should aspire to be more like Martin, as it was advertised as a Dark Fantasy (though the genre labeled was incorrect, you know where the devs were coming from.) This is why I disagree with threads that want BioWare to shy away from mature themes, it was not what was promised. And though BioWare promises should be taken with the measure of a freaking atom nowadays, I still believe that Dragon Age should be consistent with the promised theme.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I'd rather launch my copy of DAI into the sun than see more Martinian crap infest a series that I like. I strongly believe that Dragon Age should stick to the tone it's got, not artificially darken things for no good reason. Also, many mature themes are ones that our culture is more or less incapable of handling maturely, which rather takes away from the supposed mature factor.

[EnvyTB075]

The charm options were a game mechanic, especially in ME2 where it was an all-round reflection of the players attitude towards NPC's in the game world, and i sincerely doubt that the first time anyone played ME2 that "i have to pick the top or the bottom dialogue options to get charm points, otherwise i can't exonerate tali!" was at the forefront of players gaming experience when playing.

In ME1 it was a tradeoff, put points into your offensive capabilities, or expand your conversational opportunities. It was brilliant really, but after everyone "figured it out", people complained that all you had to do was pick the top ones and its all good. What they fail to mention is that after playing the games X amount of times they've conditioned themselves to it because they just want to get the cut scenes over and done with.

The removal of the mechanic (to justify the lack of dialogue options) in ME3 simply made the whole Paragon/Renegade dynamic a cosmetic meter in how mangled Shepards face is if you didn't heal his/her scars. Charm options were no longer a reward, since they were so easy to get with the "reputation" (this isn't Need For Speed Underground for ****s sake) and so few and far between that they are no longer perceived as necessary, hence the arguments against the implementation of charm dialogue options.

[SpamBot2000]

I like "third options", to transcend the occasional binary choice. I just wish they weren't so clearly labelled. Why can't conversations take skill and thought, not just your para/rene/rep EMS-equivalent?

[Wulfram]

Third options are good to have sometimes. The ME3 story is IMO better with Rannoch as a moment of triumph and hope.

But they have more impact if they're not overused. And sometimes you've got a good difficult choice and it would be better to keep that. And people should feel like they're acting naturally, not getting Jedi Mind Tricked into following Shepard's whims.

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.

Which game is that?

This one.

SOOOO glad I never got into the bloody series


 
And so glad crytek did not decide to give THEIR fans the middle finger with the ending of crysis 3

[SpamBot2000]

crimzontearz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.

Which game is that?

This one.

SOOOO glad I never got into the bloody series


 
And so glad crytek did not decide to give THEIR fans the middle finger with the ending of crysis 3

Damn, I was actually kinda looking forward to that one, and this doesn't sound too promising. Definitely going to wait for comments by people not paid to hype it.

[EnvyTB075]

At least in Infinite lead character isn't a variable one. I doubt its going to get as much stick as it actually is a standalone game.

You gotta wonder though, whats with the whole "The Ending is gonna be nothing like you ever seen!" **** these days? Can't devs just leave the details alone and actually let it be a surprise?

crimzontearz wrote...

And so glad crytek did not decide to give THEIR fans the middle finger with the ending of crysis 3

Horrifically cliche, yet somehow they made it stick. Its funny my game actually crashed when Prophet hit the thing at the end (in the interest of spoilers ). The actual end felt like a bonus for me lol, i was all "THIS BETTER NOT END ON A CLIFFHANGER"

Love that game.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 22 mars 2013 - 12:56 .

[spirosz]

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because the "controversy" generated by ME3's Ending is pure marketing gold.

And apparently it'll become a continuing trend.

A pretty big release hitting next week could very well have a terrible "controversial" ending, too.

Which game is that?

This one.

Do not jinx this.

Dream

pls