35 réponses à ce sujet

[ThatDancingTurian]

I was not impressed at all by the female turian. Here's what we knew about turian females before Omega:

- Turians have plates to protect them from the intense radiation on Palaven. Garrus also compared Shepard's hair as similar to female fringe, which would indicate it covers her head.
- The codex says turians have very little sexual dimorphism
- They have live births, but likely do not breastfeed given the way their mouths are shaped.
- Garrus made a reference towards Shepard's waist which might indicate they have thicker waists (the word he used was 'supportive', in a tone which indicated this is a plus).

What we got was:

- A bald head. Ladies, who needs brains? That whole 'protection from radiation thing' doesn't matter to you, just let 'em bake! It's clearly not just a thick single plate, because it's the color of her neck and in the back of her head you can see the plates start.
- A drastically different facial structure, more resembling human shapes but in quite a creepy way (I've seen someone refer to her as 'General Grievous'), and also with many cat qualities (cat's eyes, cat-like mouth shape) in spite of turians being an avian-inspired species. Come on, humans have less dimorphism than turians at this point.
- In at least Nyreen's case, boobs. Breasts make zero sense for a species with holes in the side of their face and sharp, beak-like lips. And in the case of the Multi-player version, at least one turian female also has a waist the side of her head. The size of her head. How is that 'supportive' in any manner? How exactly does that turian woman give birth? Given that turians have plates covering their skin (their vital organs would be an important spot for coverage), it seems hard enough for her stomach to expand to support a child, but when you make it spindly enough to break with a stiff breeze, that's when things get ridiculous.


To me her design is both too much and too little. It's all style, no substance. It takes from the worst sources of fanart with little thought to how this creature could actually work in its environment. This was something BioWare did well when coming up with the initial races, but I feel like it wasn't considered at all for the female turian. She has flaps on her eyes to give the appearance of long black eyelashes, for goodness' sake. The extended mandibles would make it nearly impossible for her to sleep on her side. Since turian males can't seem to sleep on their backs, that certainly makes them an odd pair in bed. Why would evolution do this to them?

It's very obvious everything about her came from 'it looks cool' without any further intent. That's fine if you're drawing a picture, but you're designing the second half of a pre-established species. You need to put a little more thought behind it.

If BioWare can change the qunari between games from bronze, beefy humans into a race of gray demon people, I don't see why they can't retcon the female turians as well, and personally I feel that they should.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 21 mars 2013 - 03:48 .

[HolyAvenger]

I like the FemTurian design. No need to mess with it BioWare.

[ThatDancingTurian]

HolyAvenger wrote...

I like the FemTurian design. No need to mess with it BioWare.

Care to expand on that? What makes sense about it?

[NCommand]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

I like the FemTurian design. No need to mess with it BioWare.

Care to expand on that? What makes sense about it?

Does any of the alien design adhere to logic?

[10K]

Well the Turian female design was implemented in one of the ME comics, so I guess they wanted to stick with it.

[ThatDancingTurian]

NCommand wrote...

Does any of the alien design adhere to logic?

There is at least some logical and practical intent involved in the designing process. I don't see any in the female turian. Read the codex entries on the various species, they had a lot of thought put into them. Some of them may be silly (::cough:: hanar), but this case stands out to me because it's one half of a species that contradicts the other half.

mosesarose wrote...

Well the Turian female design was implemented in one of the ME comics, so I guess they wanted to stick with it.

That design was created by a non-BioWare artist. There are a lot of things in the comics that don't fit because of independent artist decisions (quarians having red blood, for example). Besides, like I said, there is precedent with the DA redesign. After the overhaul they gave the qunari and the elves, I doubt they'll get more flak for just smoothing out the inconsistencies with female turians.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 21 mars 2013 - 04:07 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Urk, double post.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 21 mars 2013 - 04:07 .

[HolyAvenger]

No logic, I just like the look.

[ThatDancingTurian]

HolyAvenger wrote...

No logic, I just like the look.

That's the entire problem with them; they look like they were created by an artist, not birthed on an alien world. There's no reason involved in the process.

[K2LU533]

HolyAvenger wrote...

No logic, I just like the look.

[shodiswe]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I was not impressed at all by the female turian. Here's what we knew about turian females before Omega:

- Turians have plates to protect them from the intense radiation on Palaven. Garrus also compared Shepard's hair as similar to female fringe, which would indicate it covers her head.
- The codex says turians have very little sexual dimorphism
- They have live births, but likely do not breastfeed given the way their mouths are shaped.
- Garrus made a reference towards Shepard's waist which might indicate they have thicker waists (the word he used was 'supportive', in a tone which indicated this is a plus).

What we got was:

- A bald head. Ladies, who needs brains? That whole 'protection from radiation thing' doesn't matter to you, just let 'em bake! It's clearly not just a thick single plate, because it's the color of her neck and in the back of her head you can see the plates start.
- A drastically different facial structure, more resembling human shapes but in quite a creepy way (I've seen someone refer to her as 'General Grievous'), and also with many cat qualities (cat's eyes, cat-like mouth shape) in spite of turians being an avian-inspired species. Come on, humans have less dimorphism than turians at this point.
- In at least Nyreen's case, boobs. Breasts make zero sense for a species with holes in the side of their face and sharp, beak-like lips. And in the case of the Multi-player version, at least one turian female also has a waist the side of her head. The size of her head. How is that 'supportive' in any manner? How exactly does that turian woman give birth? Given that turians have plates covering their skin (their vital organs would be an important spot for coverage), it seems hard enough for her stomach to expand to support a child, but when you make it spindly enough to break with a stiff breeze, that's when things get ridiculous.


To me her design is both too much and too little. It's all style, no substance. It takes from the worst sources of fanart with little thought to how this creature could actually work in its environment. This was something BioWare did well when coming up with the initial races, but I feel like it wasn't considered at all for the female turian. She has flaps on her eyes to give the appearance of long black eyelashes, for goodness' sake. The extended mandibles would make it nearly impossible for her to sleep on her side. Since turian males can't seem to sleep on their backs, that certainly makes them an odd pair in bed. Why would evolution do this to them?

It's very obvious everything about her came from 'it looks cool' without any further intent. That's fine if you're drawing a picture, but you're designing the second half of a pre-established species. You need to put a little more thought behind it.

If BioWare can change the qunari between games from bronze, beefy humans into a race of gray demon people, I don't see why they can't retcon the female turians as well, and personally I feel that they should.

Garrus saying Sheaprds waist is supportive might be him trying to find something to say, and from his perspective it's far more "supportive" than a turians waist. He wasn't sure what would be a compliment tbh since their physiology and frames of reference differs so much. I Think it's fine as it is, I don't mind the Alien Turian design.

[ThatDancingTurian]

shodiswe wrote...

Garrus saying Sheaprds waist is supportive might be him trying to find something to say, and from his perspective it's far more "supportive" than a turians waist. He wasn't sure what would be a compliment tbh since their physiology and frames of reference differs so much. I Think it's fine as it is, I don't mind the Alien Turian design.

Garrus stated he didn't have a human fetish and that he had never considered cross-species intercourse before Shepard. Therefore his frame of reference for female attractiveness would be turian women. The fact that he would say 'supportive' in a positive way along with him comparing her to turian traits, to me indicated that it was something Shepard had in common with turian women.

Still, even if you discount that anecdote, their waist being as ridiculously tiny as it is in the MP makes little sense for child-bearing. I feel like it was a lazy approach. There was no thought to biology, just base gender stereotypes. "It's a female, so I guess we just make her slenderer."

[Kabooooom]

My only complaint about them is that the sexual dimorphism is way too anthropomorphic, with obviously human feminine qualities being exhibited. This, to me, is idiotic and strains the imagination - we already have the Asari/femquarians and their appearance was unbelievable enough, they could have made femturians a more CREATIVE design.

But, that said, I don't really mind them all that much. And by the way, OP, their 'avian-ness' is an analogy- they are alien, their physiology and anatomy (internal I presume) resembles Earth birds. That doesn't mean they ARE avian. And their appearance resembling cats has been an inside joke since ME1, so much that drunk Grunt actually mutters 'they don't look like birds, they look like cats!'

In short, I think your threshold for annoyance is pretty low if this is what you choose to be upset about with regards to ME3

Modifié par Kabooooom, 21 mars 2013 - 05:03 .

[Sajuro]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

No logic, I just like the look.

That's the entire problem with them; they look like they were created by an artist, not birthed on an alien world. There's no reason involved in the process.

They look like an artist made them?
well imagine that

[HolyAvenger]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

No logic, I just like the look.

That's the entire problem with them; they look like they were created by an artist, not birthed on an alien world. There's no reason involved in the process.

 

So? It doesn't bother me. 

[BlameTheTank]

So you saying BW did something without thinking it through? ........................ Impossible.............

[Samtheman63]

hmm the no plates to protect from radiation does seem like a but of a **** up

[Cainhurst Crow]

Nyreen didn't have boobs, period. I know that makes a good talking point for you but that is not something that she, or any of the femturians, have.

Just becasue they have a solid head-plate doesn't mean they don't have any protection at all. Saren had only three head fringes on his head, what impact did it have on him? And what are you talking about that it's not a solid plate? What evidence do you have that that is even relevant? Garrus has no plating on the back of his neck, nor do the other turian males, so what does that point matter?

About the face now, she has a longer check fringe, and that's the most of it. Her facial structure is smaller, maybe, but it's still the exact same shape as the males are, just thinner. I will give you that they have slit eyes, but I'm not seeing this "Cat like mouth" thing you go on about. And where does it state in the codex that all turians, male or female, have the exact same face and facial structure? Where does it state that their carapaces are all the same design, right down to the tiniest of detail?

[ThatDancingTurian]

Kabooooom wrote...

My only complaint about them is that the sexual dimorphism is way too anthropomorphic, with obviously human feminine qualities being exhibited. This, to me, is idiotic and strains the imagination - we already have the Asari and their appearance was unbelievable enough, they could have made femturians a more CREATIVE design.

But, that said, I don't really mind them all that much. And by the way, OP, their 'avian-ness' is an analogy- they are alien, their physiology and anatomy (internal I presume) resembles Earth birds. That doesn't mean they ARE avian. And their appearance resembling cats has been an inside joke since ME1, so much that drunk Grunt actually mutters 'they don't look like birds, they look like cats!'

In short, I think your threshold for annoyance is pretty low if this is what you choose to be upset about with regards to ME3

I understand completely that the avian features do not make them birds. I simply found the cat-like characteristics to be out of place purely from a design perspective, and the fact that they're exclusive to the females adds to dimorphism, which was supposed to be minimal.

I agree, they should have been more creative in their interpretations than making them traditionally feminine (in the human sense). Barring that, they should have not been as 'creative' in terms of adding artistic flare that has no practical use. They could have kept them simple and made them very similar to the males. I would have preferred either of those, personally.

As for my annoyance, well, I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem if it were, say, female drell. Turians are my favorite species and I feel like the female design just doesn't live up to their greatness.

And as for ME3, I definitely agree. This is by far not my only problem with the game. But other topics have those issues covered pretty well.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 21 mars 2013 - 05:08 .

[Kabooooom]

Ah, I see. Well by 'creative' I meant creative with respect to sexual dimorphism. Most avian species exhibit color dimorphism, for example, while physical dimorphism is less common. Since Mass Effect drew heavy, heavy inspiration from biology on Earth (or at least, as someone with a background in biology I strongly suspect they did) they should have turned once again to nature for inspiration. Nature is, without a doubt, far more creative than anything any of us could imagine.

Also, in my opinion the male Turian face is just as catlike in appearance, with the exception that the female Turians are more soft and feminine and the catlike characteristics are more obvious. But I've thought that since ME1, and so have many others.

Sorry, that was tangential and rambling, but I would have preferred a female turian that was physically very similar to the males, but perhaps more colorful. Often the reverse is true of birds on Earth, but not always- the Eclectus parrot is a perfect example.

So in that sense, I agree with you that their design was stupid. But for me it isn't the deviation from canon that is stupid but anthropomorphising them with human femininity when we already have two species that are virtually identical to human females...at least as far as secondary sexual characteristics go.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 21 mars 2013 - 05:17 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Nyreen didn't have boobs, period. I know that makes a good talking point for you but that is not something that she, or any of the femturians, have.

The only image we have of a female without big, thick armor covering her chest shows her with two breast-like lumps. It's possible they aren't breasts, but they sure look like them. It's hard to say whether she just smashed them into her armor or whether they were an illusion of her tunic. I haven't played Omega, so I can't say, I've just seen the screenshots and played the cabal. The fact that they cut out of canon the only dialogue that confirms lady turians don't have 'funny bumps' doesn't help.

Just becasue they have a solid head-plate doesn't mean they don't have any protection at all. Saren had only three head fringes on his head, what impact did it have on him? And what are you talking about that it's not a solid plate? What evidence do you have that that is even relevant? Garrus has no plating on the back of his neck, nor do the other turian males, so what does that point matter?

It's not a solid plate because it's not. If you look from the back, there's no plating, it starts at the base of her skull. Garrus may not have plating on parts of his neck, but the shadows from his fringe and collar protect that area so it makes sense that there would be less plating there. The top of the head on the other hand is a very important area that needs to be protected.

It's relevant because the codex has said it's relevant. The plating is protection. The fact that the females do not have that protection is a huge oversight.

Saren was said to be some sort of genetic throwback or something, which is their explanation for his different look not fitting turian lore. That's fine with me. But Nyreen and her MP counterpart are the blueprints for all turian women.

About the face now, she has a longer check fringe, and that's the most of it. Her facial structure is smaller, maybe, but it's still the exact same shape as the males are, just thinner. I will give you that they have slit eyes, but I'm not seeing this "Cat like mouth" thing you go on about. And where does it state in the codex that all turians, male or female, have the exact same face and facial structure? Where does it state that their carapaces are all the same design, right down to the tiniest of detail?

It's not really the same shape. The male mouths end in points and then flare up, but the female's is rounded off into a much more human-like shape. Her face is also flatter and doesn't follow the contours of the male face. Put all together and she looks different from the male to the point that I don't think many would have trouble telling them apart even without the bald head. I wouldn't have an issue with her face just looking different per se, but it was explicitly stated that they had very little sexual dimorphism.

And I agree with Kabooooom that humanizing the female's features was not a good creative choice.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 21 mars 2013 - 05:25 .

[Kabooooom]

I mean, anthropomorphizing is fine in moderation. In a galaxy with 200 billion stars, sure maybe there's a species that is primate in appearance, all female, and reproduces by parthenogenesis. Oh and is blue. Sure why the **** not? But when you make a second species females with human secondary sexual characteristics...and then a third...it becomes too much. Branch out, artistically, is my only complaint with them.

And honestly that doesn't really bother me, I just find the design boring and unimaginative. Doesn't detract from the story one bit for me.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm still not seeing it, especially the headplate thing or the face thing, and the question about the "boobs" was solved by showing a sideview of her, showing her very flat, no bumps at all, chest. And also patrick weekes twitter.

But thanks for responding, you made good counterpoints in your post.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 21 mars 2013 - 05:30 .

[Kabooooom]

You're still not seeing what? That they have catlike characteristics or that the female design is different?

Because the former is so obvious that its become a joke, and was included as a joke in the Citadel dlc for that reason.

[N7KnightSabre]

Until now, Bioware had no idea what Turian females looked like. They made assumptions (as did the fans) that the women would look very similar to the males. The team finally did design the females and they now have a concrete idea to work with. I think the design is nice and I don't understand why having the female turians have a larger sexual dimorphism than the males is so bad. I can understand if they looked like completely different entities but they don't. They look like turians.