232 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Pepper4 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I wasn't trying to be specific towards you, sorry. And judging and criticizing are two different things when it comes this, in my opinion.

I didn't take any offence, nor did I take anything personally. I was talking about myself as a person without an artistic background.

ok, then. 
Can a movie critic with no background in making movies be a good movie critic?

A movie critic doesn't need to be a film maker, they just need to know enough about film to know what the hell they're talking about so they don't come off as an idiot.

[drayfish]

Mass Effect 3 may have ruined using the word 'Art' as a catch-all defence to ignore criticism, or to allow artists to avoid engaging in a mature discussion of whatever it was that they intended - but that can only be a good thing.

The moment that any artist, in any form of expression, walls them self off from their audience, and tries to avoid critical debate and analysis by invoking the self-indulgence of artistic license, they risk devaluing the validity of their whole purpose in evoking a response (any response) from their audience.  They end up becoming mindless provocateurs, celebrating gratuity in lieu of meaning.

But it would be foolish to dismiss the validity of videogames as Art based upon the petulance of one artist.  That would be like saying that film cannot be 'Art' because Tommy Wiseau thought 'The Room' was an unquestionable masterpiece.

Hopefully the OP was serious in posing this question (and not just offering a dig at people riffing on the 'artistic integrity meme), but I do genuinely believe that videogames have the capacity, and the unique expressive potential, to be proudly called Art. In many ways they are the next organic step in our human compulsion to render our experience in a multifaceted aesthetic creation.

(It's also why I believe that the clumsy, intolerant message at the end of Mass Effect 3 cannot, and should not, be simplistically dismissed as 'just a game'.  It has far more profound and disturbing implications than that.)

If you are not already bored to death by this post, and really feel like subjecting yourself to more of my drivel on this subject, see:

http://drayfish.word...rience-down-up/

http://drayfish.word...radigms-of-art/

Modifié par drayfish, 22 mars 2013 - 12:21 .

[chemiclord]

spirosz wrote...

chemiclord wrote...
Criticizing something is perfectly legit, regardless of how well you "know" the medium.

I disagree tbh. 

You don't need to know the brushstrokes used... if the colors don't agree to your eye, you're not going to like it, and have every right to say so.

Even if you don't know how level design, or don't know exactly how to foreshadow a plot element, if neither turn out well to your experience, you're not going to like it, and have every right to say so.

The knowledge of why something is the way it is doesn't change whether you like it or not.

Modifié par chemiclord, 22 mars 2013 - 12:21 .

[spirosz]

I'm not arguing about stating you don't like something and why you don't, but when it comes to specific forms of criticism, I've seen a lot of people here state things they have no knowledge of and that bugs me, personally.

I don't like auto-dialogue, but I won't argue about the fundamentals of it, since I don't know if it's technically easier to write the game towards auto-dialogue in mind, compared to how ME1 and 2 was. Plus, what if Bioware used some form of technique that no other developer uses, would it be fair to compare then?

[Pepper4]

spirosz wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I wasn't trying to be specific towards you, sorry. And judging and criticizing are two different things when it comes this, in my opinion.

I didn't take any offence, nor did I take anything personally. I was talking about myself as a person without an artistic background.

ok, then. 
Can a movie critic with no background in making movies be a good movie critic?

Well, most film critics take film classes specifically and become immersed in learning and knowing everything there is to know about movies, the terminology, the attitude and mindset going into certain types of films, etc.  I'm assuming most would like to experience this as well, with either their own little projects that make them dive deeper in the whole movie life experience, which well help with their critiquing.

But CAN a movie critic with no background in making movies be a good movie critic?
The answer is of course yes.

But that's not even what I want to say.

Based on various criteria I choose, I can establish my opinion on the quality of a piece of art. It's up to you to choose whether you wish to hear my opinion, based on how you value me. However, even if you don't think I am qualified to criticize a certain piece of art, you as a rational and critical person have to deal with any arguments that you were exposed to. If I write any argument that supports my opinion, and you were exposed to this argument, you have to deal with it.

I am writing my arguments now. You may read them and you may not.

In my opinion, good art is often thought provoking.
Mass Effect made me think. The Genophage Decision, The Heretics Decision, The Crucible Decision, all these and other made me think and made me reconsider moral viewings.  

In my opinion, good art often touches you on the emotional level.
Mass Effect touched me. I felt sad when Mordin died and I felt happy when Grunt survived the fight with the rachni. If these character weren't reliable, if I couldn't understand what drives these characters, these events wouldn't have provoked any emotional response. 
I felt tense when I talked with Saren in the council tower and I laughed when I watched the Elcor version of Hamlet.

I can go on with this... Consistency, aesthetics and many other things. All these things make great art in my opinion. I would have written in more detail even if I wasn't as tired as I am.

[Pepper4]

o Ventus wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I wasn't trying to be specific towards you, sorry. And judging and criticizing are two different things when it comes this, in my opinion.

I didn't take any offence, nor did I take anything personally. I was talking about myself as a person without an artistic background.

ok, then. 
Can a movie critic with no background in making movies be a good movie critic?

A movie critic doesn't need to be a film maker, they just need to know enough about film to know what the hell they're talking about so they don't come off as an idiot.

I don't think you are wrong.

[wright1978]

o Ventus wrote...

"Art" isn't a dirty word. Not at all. In fact, it can be a great compliment.

It's just when the producers of said "art" use the word as some sort of magical anti-criticism shield, when what they out out is just bad.

Yep this

[Ninja Stan]

Not really ME3 story or campaign related any longer.

Note: the "art" or "artistic integrity" meme used in this forum was created by fans who misinterpreted Ray Muzyka's blog entry supporting the ME3 team and the game's "artistic vision." It was never used by BioWare to deflect, avoid, or dismiss criticism of the company or its games. It was one more thing, amid a litany of things, that angry fans could use to fuel their disappointment and frustration over what they perceived to be the flaws in ME3's ending.

End of line.