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When used as a cop-out as the talking heads did early in the ending controversy, "art" should be a bad word because in that context, art = lazy in my opinion. There are artful moments all over this game but the way "art" was used in the "why we are right and you are dense" talking points from Bioware was downright insulting.
Is "Art" a dirty word in video games now?
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Cainhurst Crow
, mars 21 2013 05:22
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#102
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 07:48
SiriusXI
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Artistic Integrity is hence forth a negative buzzword.
#103
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 07:50
Redbelle
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archangel1996 wrote...
Redbelle wrote...
...
ME will never be a classic thanks to the ending
The best they can do now is squeeze everything out of it, at least since there is people to buy it
I agree that the ending of ME3 invalidated many of the theme's that's ran throughtout the series.....
But I would strongly argue against the notion that the ME game's are not classic's.
Sure, ME1 plays like an old a creaky game with some horrible UI's, but the reason wy I use the word classic is that these 3 game's tie into each other in a way that has seldom been acheived by any other game developer with a cracking story to go with it.
One of the element's that made ME so good was that the decision's you made in ME1 carried over to ME2 and so on. I could cite the council/destiny ascension or Wrex.......... but instead I want to focus on the female gang lord of ME1 who you bump into in Omega's Afterlife's in ME2, or the sparing of Shiala (think that's her name), after she is freed from the Torian creeper who you meet again in ME2 trying to talk a grieving Asari out of bad term's and conditions...... not so much those individual's but what they represent in the game.
The game's mold themselve's around your decisions creating unique galaxies, which may seem 'meh' to those of us who have played them to death, but let's not forget that when ME was new this mechanic of an individual's Shepard creating their own galaxy that ran according to that's Shepard's moral compass was a big deal. And still is.
ME3's ending has taken the gloss off, I'll admit. But playing through ME1 again..... the ending is a long way away. And because I keep deliberately losing to Garrus during the Citadel sniper competition, I've created a new Shepard who is a sniper and is being played with an attitude that, once I get to that scene, will firmly put Garrus in his place.
But like the ending, that's a long way away. Meanwhile I get to meet Tali, the Rachni Queen and all those other ME moment's lost in the mist of time. And I'm enjoying it. I'll deal with the ending when I hit it again for it is a grud aweful destination......meanwhile I'm enjoying the ride.
And if worst come's to worst I'll just play through with the MEHEM.
#104
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 07:52
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
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It's consumer art. It's not a series that will be discussed in any literary articles because the story isn't that thought provoking, experimental or original. However, that doesn't mean that it not possible to get an emotional reaction from it nor does that mean it's mediocre within it's field of art. It's average to above average consumer art. 100+ hours of entertainment.
Though the mocking of an artists ability to make decisions with their product from the artist's own fanbase will certainly make video games seem like a lesser art form to the average person. If the people who enjoyed it think it's a joke, why should anyone else take it seriously?
Though the mocking of an artists ability to make decisions with their product from the artist's own fanbase will certainly make video games seem like a lesser art form to the average person. If the people who enjoyed it think it's a joke, why should anyone else take it seriously?
Modifié par The Mad Hanar, 21 mars 2013 - 07:54 .
#105
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 07:55
JamesFaith
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aj2070 wrote...
When used as a cop-out as the talking heads did early in the ending controversy, "art" should be a bad word because in that context, art = lazy in my opinion. There are artful moments all over this game but the way "art" was used in the "why we are right and you are dense" talking points from Bioware was downright insulting.
Any source when did they say defence quality of some part of game by art?
I only saw this claims made by people on BSN, no BW itself.
#107
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:12
Bill Casey
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If you get an F in Art it says Fart...
#108
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:19
aj2070
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JamesFaith wrote...
<snip>
Any source when did they say defence quality of some part of game by art?
I only saw this claims made by people on BSN, no BW itself.
What immediately comes to mind is this, the open letter from Dr. Ray Muzyka in reaction to the initial ending discussions. I think this is when "artistic integrity" became the buzz word for the endings.
Dr. Ray Muzyka wrote...
I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.
Many people, including myself, counter that the ending (original and some would even still say post Extended Cut) violate the art theme presented in the rest of the saga.
That was the tame use of artistic integrity. Admitedly the more agressive bludgeing came from the gaming press as I recall.
Modifié par aj2070, 21 mars 2013 - 08:28 .
#109
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:22
NeonFlux117
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Art is a term thrown around a lot. In truth, I guess you could say Mass Effect is art because it is very creative and has some themes rooted in socioeconomic, political and metaphysical content.
However, just because you created art doesn't mean that said is art cannot be criticized, analyzed or disagreed upon. True art encourages discourse and there's been a lot of that on ME3, maybe not so much on BSN, but I'd say ME3 is art.
The most "art" types of games I've played are probably Journey and Bioshock. Maybe ME2 would be up there- it is in the Smithsonian Art Museum, lol. So, yeah I guess ME is art and pretty good art.
However, just because you created art doesn't mean that said is art cannot be criticized, analyzed or disagreed upon. True art encourages discourse and there's been a lot of that on ME3, maybe not so much on BSN, but I'd say ME3 is art.
The most "art" types of games I've played are probably Journey and Bioshock. Maybe ME2 would be up there- it is in the Smithsonian Art Museum, lol. So, yeah I guess ME is art and pretty good art.
Modifié par NeonFlux117, 21 mars 2013 - 08:24 .
#110
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:24
eddieoctane
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Art in game is a complicated thing. There's two main issues at play here: can video games be considered an artistic medium and is "art" a justifiable defense of criticism. On the first point, I would say decidedly yes. Games like Journey prove that rather well. However, just as film can be art, but not every film is art, so too are not all video games art. Citizen Kane, 2001, and Taxi Driver are amazing works of art. But then we have films like Batman & Robin which was awful and was made simply to try to cash in on Tim Burton's vision of Gotham City one more time; it was hardly art. Similarly, the Madden and Fifa titles are not art. Claiming all games are art does a disservice to both video games and art. Some games are art, and some art comes as video games. It's like a rectangle and a rhombus; they overlap in the form of a square, but they are not always going to be the same thing.
On the second question, can claiming that a product is art as a defense for criticism be acceptable, the answer is no. Every form of art, from music to sculpture to dance is open to criticism from both "professional critics" and from the public at large. To deny this is unacceptable and only demonstrates that the product being offered isn't really art. You have to be able to accept criticism of your work if you want to be an artist. Bioware's reaction to the players' criticism makes me question what kind of people they really are.
Though we also have the issues of what kind of art a video game is and who said art belongs to. Many famous works of art were commissioned and belonged to those paying for it. The Last Judgement was paid for by the Catholic church and the church and belongs to them. If the Pope had issue with what Michelangelo did, he was told to change it and that was the end of the discussion. Though we can all go to the Sistine Chapel and view one of the quintessential pieces of Renaissance art, the Vatican was the end consumer and it belonged to them from the get-go. Video games occur in a grey area. EA funded the development of Mass Effect 3, but we are the end consumers of the work. EA made it's money back and then some, they wouldn't be around very long if they didn't do this with every game they pay the development costs of. But in the end, the profits from ME3 will fund another game, and ME3 was funded by a previous title's profits. We are really the only ones paying for the game from the ground up. Traditionally, this would make the players the owners, but copyright law muddles the picture. However, to claim that we have no right to request changes to a game (as Ray Muzyka did with his "artistic integrity" comment) is crap of the highest order. We are still partial owners of the game universe. To deny that is to ignore how much the players contribute to the art that so many want to claim video games to be.
TL;DR version: art isn't a dirty word unless you're an arrogant ****** about it. Or if you're talking about sports games that are decidedly not art.
On the second question, can claiming that a product is art as a defense for criticism be acceptable, the answer is no. Every form of art, from music to sculpture to dance is open to criticism from both "professional critics" and from the public at large. To deny this is unacceptable and only demonstrates that the product being offered isn't really art. You have to be able to accept criticism of your work if you want to be an artist. Bioware's reaction to the players' criticism makes me question what kind of people they really are.
Though we also have the issues of what kind of art a video game is and who said art belongs to. Many famous works of art were commissioned and belonged to those paying for it. The Last Judgement was paid for by the Catholic church and the church and belongs to them. If the Pope had issue with what Michelangelo did, he was told to change it and that was the end of the discussion. Though we can all go to the Sistine Chapel and view one of the quintessential pieces of Renaissance art, the Vatican was the end consumer and it belonged to them from the get-go. Video games occur in a grey area. EA funded the development of Mass Effect 3, but we are the end consumers of the work. EA made it's money back and then some, they wouldn't be around very long if they didn't do this with every game they pay the development costs of. But in the end, the profits from ME3 will fund another game, and ME3 was funded by a previous title's profits. We are really the only ones paying for the game from the ground up. Traditionally, this would make the players the owners, but copyright law muddles the picture. However, to claim that we have no right to request changes to a game (as Ray Muzyka did with his "artistic integrity" comment) is crap of the highest order. We are still partial owners of the game universe. To deny that is to ignore how much the players contribute to the art that so many want to claim video games to be.
TL;DR version: art isn't a dirty word unless you're an arrogant ****** about it. Or if you're talking about sports games that are decidedly not art.
#111
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:24
AlexMBrennan
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"Art" is taboo if you use it as an excuse for the video game industry to ignore their customers - because that is not what is going on. No other art form is this vigorously defended (when is the last time you saw film critics raging against test screenings? Or against books being edited before being published?).
#112
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:25
NeonFlux117
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eddieoctane wrote...
Art in game is a complicated thing. There's two main issues at play here: can video games be considered an artistic medium and is "art" a justifiable defense of criticism. On the first point, I would say decidedly yes. Games like Journey prove that rather well. However, just as film can be art, but not every film is art, so too are not all video games art. Citizen Kane, 2001, and Taxi Driver are amazing works of art. But then we have films like Batman & Robin which was awful and was made simply to try to cash in on Tim Burton's vision of Gotham City one more time; it was hardly art. Similarly, the Madden and Fifa titles are not art. Claiming all games are art does a disservice to both video games and art. Some games are art, and some art comes as video games. It's like a rectangle and a rhombus; they overlap in the form of a square, but they are not always going to be the same thing.
On the second question, can claiming that a product is art as a defense for criticism be acceptable, the answer is no. Every form of art, from music to sculpture to dance is open to criticism from both "professional critics" and from the public at large. To deny this is unacceptable and only demonstrates that the product being offered isn't really art. You have to be able to accept criticism of your work if you want to be an artist. Bioware's reaction to the players' criticism makes me question what kind of people they really are.
Though we also have the issues of what kind of art a video game is and who said art belongs to. Many famous works of art were commissioned and belonged to those paying for it. The Last Judgement was paid for by the Catholic church and the church and belongs to them. If the Pope had issue with what Michelangelo did, he was told to change it and that was the end of the discussion. Though we can all go to the Sistine Chapel and view one of the quintessential pieces of Renaissance art, the Vatican was the end consumer and it belonged to them from the get-go. Video games occur in a grey area. EA funded the development of Mass Effect 3, but we are the end consumers of the work. EA made it's money back and then some, they wouldn't be around very long if they didn't do this with every game they pay the development costs of. But in the end, the profits from ME3 will fund another game, and ME3 was funded by a previous title's profits. We are really the only ones paying for the game from the ground up. Traditionally, this would make the players the owners, but copyright law muddles the picture. However, to claim that we have no right to request changes to a game (as Ray Muzyka did with his "artistic integrity" comment) is crap of the highest order. We are still partial owners of the game universe. To deny that is to ignore how much the players contribute to the art that so many want to claim video games to be.
TL;DR version: art isn't a dirty word unless you're an arrogant ****** about it. Or if you're talking about sports games that are decidedly not art.
I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said.
#113
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:26
JamesFaith
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aj2070 wrote...
What immediately comes to mind is this, the open letter from Dr. Ray Muzyka in reaction to the initial ending discussions. I think this is when "artistic integrity" became the buzz word for the endings.Dr. Ray Muzyka wrote...
I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.
Many people, including myself, counter that the ending (original and some would even still say post Extended Cut) violate the art form put forth in the rest of the saga.
That was the tame use of artistic integrity. Admitedly the more agressive bludgeing came from the gaming press as I recall.
Still don't see any word about quality here. Or that their game is better because it is art. Or any defence.
He just said that they as authors have right to decide about changes in their work. He didn't defend its quality by word "art".
#114
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:30
archangel1996
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Redbelle wrote...
...
In ten years you think that a casual gamer will buy a game with the ending controversy?
A game becomes a classic when there is many people behind it, casual and real fans
The first to buy it, the latter to remember it, BW lied and manipulated too many of the latters, the ending is just the pit of the iceberg
And with EA in charge? The new studio of ME called Shepard "Captain Shepard"
They will most likely end like Halo 4, live with the past glory, the only difference with Halo is that Mass Effect now has 0 chance to become like it.... so it will end sooner
Modifié par archangel1996, 21 mars 2013 - 08:32 .
#115
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:30
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
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It is ridiculous that people are trying to say that EA and Bioware were trying to say that the ending was *good* because of their artistic integrity. That wasn't their point at all. What they were saying was that they are entitled to end the game the way they wanted to because it is *their* game. If they changed the ending to something that the fans wrote or wanted, they'd basically be putting fan fiction into their game and ending it in a way that the writers didn't want to end their story. Dickens and Bethesda are exceptions when it comes to caving into their fans, not the rule.
#116
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:30
N7-RedFox
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Art is not a dirty word at all. Nor is artistic integrity. But when Bioware used that term they meant "Our decisions are final so u can go frak yourselves." There's a big difference between artistic integrity and blatant pig-headedness.
What baffles me most though is that they cut 3 plotlines which were all better than the star kid. 1) Javik being the catalyst was scrapped. 2) A boss fight with the illusive man was scrapped. 3) The Dark Energy plot was scrapped.
What baffles me most though is that they cut 3 plotlines which were all better than the star kid. 1) Javik being the catalyst was scrapped. 2) A boss fight with the illusive man was scrapped. 3) The Dark Energy plot was scrapped.
Modifié par N7-RedFox, 21 mars 2013 - 08:32 .
#117
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:32
sH0tgUn jUliA
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Are video games art? If game companies want their work considered art, they'd better be prepared to accept criticism and not be fawned over by people. These 10/10 scores are ridiculous. If they want to be considered art I'll score them against something that is a 10/10 in the art world perhaps, and see where the game stacks up. Maybe it will be a 1/10? Oh, commercial art you say! Ah, now we're in a different realm. You want to exclude fine art.
Games are not fine art, at least not yet. People need to stop making comparisons to literature, and to other works of fine art. They are commercial art at best. They are mass marketed. They have artistic qualities about them, but do artistic qualities make something a work of art?
Our culture today has done a disservice to art when a cleaning person can't tell the difference between a mess and a work of art, as shown in the link given above which I will repost: http://news.bbc.co.u...ent/3604278.stm Artists themselves are to blame for this. I wonder if they did these things as a joke at first, without realizing that this was going to come back and bite them in the ass; and when what they "created" was accepted by pseudo-intellectuals fawning over it, they suddenly realized that they created their own nightmare.
Fortunately we seem to be getting past that stage.
Games are not fine art, at least not yet. People need to stop making comparisons to literature, and to other works of fine art. They are commercial art at best. They are mass marketed. They have artistic qualities about them, but do artistic qualities make something a work of art?
Our culture today has done a disservice to art when a cleaning person can't tell the difference between a mess and a work of art, as shown in the link given above which I will repost: http://news.bbc.co.u...ent/3604278.stm Artists themselves are to blame for this. I wonder if they did these things as a joke at first, without realizing that this was going to come back and bite them in the ass; and when what they "created" was accepted by pseudo-intellectuals fawning over it, they suddenly realized that they created their own nightmare.
Fortunately we seem to be getting past that stage.
#118
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:36
Cyberstrike nTo
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archangel1996 wrote...
Kabooooom wrote...
Alright genius here is the definition of art for you:
Art - noun - the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically (but not exclusively) in a visual form.
A painting is art. Music is art. Writing is art. Dancing is art.
Just because you want to **** and moan about how you think ME3 should have been and you think that somehow renders it 'not art', doesn't make it so.
So take your own advice and buy yourself a dictionary.
Again, a game changes in time, doesn't it? Hide behind a defination doesnt help, you know
I would really pay to know how many people actually convinced themselves of this only after what BW sayed
Think with your head
The same with film, TV shows, music, novels, plays, and just about other form of the visual arts.
#119
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:38
archangel1996
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The Mad Hanar wrote...
It is ridiculous that people are trying to say that EA and Bioware were trying to say that the ending was *good* because of their artistic integrity. That wasn't their point at all. What they were saying was that they are entitled to end the game the way they wanted to because it is *their* game. If they changed the ending to something that the fans wrote or wanted, they'd basically be putting fan fiction into their game and ending it in a way that the writers didn't want to end their story. Dickens and Bethesda are exceptions when it comes to caving into their fans, not the rule.
It is not their game, it is our game, theirs and ours
We trusted them to do a good job, we trusted them to do a fine end to a saga that we all love
They LIED, for many of us they weren't just some random guys with a stupid game, if they were silly us, they were our "developer of trust" and they lied since day 1
Mulyplayer, 16 endings, no A,B,C, Choices matter, Autodialogues....
They say that it is art? Fine, they were the very first to disrespect their art lying about it, lying at their customers
What type of art is that?
#120
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:39
archangel1996
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Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
archangel1996 wrote...
Kabooooom wrote...
Alright genius here is the definition of art for you:
Art - noun - the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically (but not exclusively) in a visual form.
A painting is art. Music is art. Writing is art. Dancing is art.
Just because you want to **** and moan about how you think ME3 should have been and you think that somehow renders it 'not art', doesn't make it so.
So take your own advice and buy yourself a dictionary.
Again, a game changes in time, doesn't it? Hide behind a defination doesnt help, you know
I would really pay to know how many people actually convinced themselves of this only after what BW sayed
Think with your head
The same with film, TV shows, music, novels, plays, and just about other form of the visual arts.
Star wars has changed? When?
#121
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:42
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
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archangel1996 wrote...
The Mad Hanar wrote...
It is ridiculous that people are trying to say that EA and Bioware were trying to say that the ending was *good* because of their artistic integrity. That wasn't their point at all. What they were saying was that they are entitled to end the game the way they wanted to because it is *their* game. If they changed the ending to something that the fans wrote or wanted, they'd basically be putting fan fiction into their game and ending it in a way that the writers didn't want to end their story. Dickens and Bethesda are exceptions when it comes to caving into their fans, not the rule.
It is not their game, it is our game, theirs and ours
We trusted them to do a good job, we trusted them to do a fine end to a saga that we all love
They LIED, for many of us they weren't just some random guys with a stupid game, if they were silly us, they were our "developer of trust" and they lied since day 1
Mulyplayer, 16 endings, no A,B,C, Choices matter, Autodialogues....
They say that it is art? Fine, they were the very first to disrespect their art lying about it, lying at their customers
What type of art is that?
No, it is not. How many hours did you work on the game? How many sections of the game did you write? Did you put any funding into the game? Did you do any of the designs for the game? Did you do any marketing for the game? If the answer to all of those are zero or no then you are in no place to say the game is yours. They never lied about autodialogue, multiplayer and IGN ran the story about the 16 endings. I have never seen a Bioware quote where they directly said there would be 16 endings.
Modifié par The Mad Hanar, 21 mars 2013 - 08:42 .
#122
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:44
archangel1996
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The Mad Hanar wrote...
archangel1996 wrote...
It is not their game, it is our game, theirs and ours
We trusted them to do a good job, we trusted them to do a fine end to a saga that we all love
They LIED, for many of us they weren't just some random guys with a stupid game, if they were silly us, they were our "developer of trust" and they lied since day 1
Mulyplayer, 16 endings, no A,B,C, Choices matter, Autodialogues....
They say that it is art? Fine, they were the very first to disrespect their art lying about it, lying at their customers
What type of art is that?
No, it is not. How many hours did you work on the game? How many sections of the game did you write? Did you put any funding into the game? Did you do any of the designs for the game? Did you do any marketing for the game? If the answer to all of those are zero or no then you are in no place to say the game is yours. They never lied about autodialogue, multiplayer and IGN ran the story about the 16 endings. I have never seen a Bioware quote where they directly said there would be 16 endings.
How many money did i put in their games?
Honestly, for an RPG your way of tought is quite delusional, no offense
Modifié par archangel1996, 21 mars 2013 - 08:45 .
#123
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:47
Seival
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Makrys wrote...
Who cares what other people think. Call it what you want. To me, it is absolutely art. The best art of this gaming generation.
This.
+1
#124
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:48
Cyberstrike nTo
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archangel1996 wrote...
Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
archangel1996 wrote...
Kabooooom wrote...
Alright genius here is the definition of art for you:
Art - noun - the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically (but not exclusively) in a visual form.
A painting is art. Music is art. Writing is art. Dancing is art.
Just because you want to **** and moan about how you think ME3 should have been and you think that somehow renders it 'not art', doesn't make it so.
So take your own advice and buy yourself a dictionary.
Again, a game changes in time, doesn't it? Hide behind a defination doesnt help, you know
I would really pay to know how many people actually convinced themselves of this only after what BW sayed
Think with your head
The same with film, TV shows, music, novels, plays, and just about other form of the visual arts.
Star wars has changed? When?
1997 with the special editions. Of course anybody could change them or any film with a lot patience and a good video editor program.
The same with TV shows (see the extended or European cuts of episodes from Battlestar Galactica and Farscape), music (Garth Brooks took out the last verse of two songs and only restored them for concerts only), novels (Stephen King did that on The Stand), of course with todays' techonlogy people have constantly remixed, cut, subtracted, added, moded, or re-edited tons of art from various medias for their own reasons. So art changes with time and technology.
#125
Posté 21 mars 2013 - 08:48
NeonFlux117
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The Mad Hanar wrote...
archangel1996 wrote...
The Mad Hanar wrote...
It is ridiculous that people are trying to say that EA and Bioware were trying to say that the ending was *good* because of their artistic integrity. That wasn't their point at all. What they were saying was that they are entitled to end the game the way they wanted to because it is *their* game. If they changed the ending to something that the fans wrote or wanted, they'd basically be putting fan fiction into their game and ending it in a way that the writers didn't want to end their story. Dickens and Bethesda are exceptions when it comes to caving into their fans, not the rule.
It is not their game, it is our game, theirs and ours
We trusted them to do a good job, we trusted them to do a fine end to a saga that we all love
They LIED, for many of us they weren't just some random guys with a stupid game, if they were silly us, they were our "developer of trust" and they lied since day 1
Mulyplayer, 16 endings, no A,B,C, Choices matter, Autodialogues....
They say that it is art? Fine, they were the very first to disrespect their art lying about it, lying at their customers
What type of art is that?
No, it is not. How many hours did you work on the game? How many sections of the game did you write? Did you put any funding into the game? Did you do any of the designs for the game? Did you do any marketing for the game? If the answer to all of those are zero or no then you are in no place to say the game is yours. They never lied about autodialogue, multiplayer and IGN ran the story about the 16 endings. I have never seen a Bioware quote where they directly said there would be 16 endings.
Haha, silly comment. When you let player choice dicatate the narrative for 98 percent of a series. Then force 3 endings on players that are mostly the same-well destory isn't, but anyways when you do that, players are going to be upset. It is our game and it is Bioware's game. That's what's so unique about ME, if you don't understand that then you don't get Mass Effect.
