232 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesFaith]

archangel1996 wrote...

They LIED, for many of us they weren't just some random guys with a stupid game, if they were silly us, they were  our "developer of trust" and they lied since day 1
Mulyplayer, 16 endings, no A,B,C, Choices matter, Autodialogues....

You know that BW never said this? That it was said about Witcher 2 and IGN just confused names of ME3 and Witcher 2? It was explained months ago.
  

[Redbelle]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

It is ridiculous that people are trying to say that EA and Bioware were trying to say that the ending was *good* because of their artistic integrity. That wasn't their point at all. What they were saying was that they are entitled to end the game the way they wanted to because it is *their* game. If they changed the ending to something that the fans wrote or wanted, they'd basically be putting fan fiction into their game and ending it in a way that the writers didn't want to end their story. Dickens and Bethesda are exceptions when it comes to caving into their fans, not the rule.

If your refering to the ending of Fallout 3 then the fan's simply asked the question of, "Why doesn't the 'immune to radioactivity' mutant walk into the radioactive chamber to push the switch that save's the world, instead of the two human's, who aren't immune and will die?"

Seriously. One of the most simple and basic of all player game mechanic's is............ Don't let you health guage reach ZERO!!! In short, don't get killed.

We could argue over the heroism of a character making the ultimate sacrifice...... but let's go back to FO3 and pretend they changed one little thing.

Remove the mutant. Have him go the way of dog meat on the way to chamber and offer no easy way out to the player. It's either one human or the other. and the one that goes in will die. The heroic sacrifice can no longer be avoided due to circumstance.

The developer however, did not go this route. Having seen the logic of the fan's was irrefutable. Send in the party member who could not die, thereby adhering to the rule a player avoiding unnessary death.

Just because a developer write's in a U-Turn on that rule at the 11th hour of a game does not mean that the player is ready to throw away gamer logic because the dev's demand it. It's a fundamental discontent from the player's they serve.

[NeonFlux117]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Haha, silly comment. When you let player choice dicatate the narrative for 98 percent of a series. Then force 3 endings on players that are mostly the same-well destory isn't, but anyways when you do that, players are going to be upset. It is our game and it is Bioware's game. That's what's so unique about ME, if you don't understand that then you don't get Mass Effect.

If you don't get why it's their game, first and foremost, then you don't understand writing. If you don't understand that the choice they gave you throughout the series was an illusion, then I don't know what to tell you.

Well it's actually drew karypyshyn's games if your talking about writing of narrative Wrote (ME1 and ME2). I don't know what poor soul worte the majority of ME3, probably Hudson and Walters. And how was choice an illusion? Cause it does directly affect the narrative of the games. Clear up to the end of ME3- then it doesn't matter, is that what you're trying to say? That the end game choice doesn't matter. I agree on that. And that's why a lot of players dislike the endings. 

[archangel1996]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
...

maybe youc an understand on your own with this question:
What is a developer without customers?
Nothing
CoD is the game of treyarch, because all you ahve to do is choose the weapon and kill guys, i can enjoy CoD and the multy, but that's all
With games like Mass Effect, in which you put, in same way, yourself in another universe, make friends, lose firends and go on, i proove more
And thanks to these feelings i start to trust the ones who made it to go on with the good work, to make me go for antoher while in another universe and enjoy my time in it, this is way it's our game and theirs
We put our trust, our money and our support, they give us the items to forget of the problems of real life to enjoy some time in a univers in which we are the heroes
Theirs and ours, they forgot that

[Cainhurst Crow]

This is so enlightening when there isn't an fight going on. XD

I'm curious now, what exactly does being art entail to other people here? To me it simply means it can be looked at and appreciated on a slightly different level than something else, say like a picture of a wall as opposed to a van gogh painting. Art is made to invoke something without physically affecting the body, like an emotional response or promoting an idea inside someone. It can hurt you without laying a hand on you, it can make you sick without poisoning you, it can make you smile or laugh with just simply seeing it, hearing it, reading it, anything like that. That is what makes art art to me, don't know if that is "correct" or "right" to me.

But art doesn't have some immunity to critique or comment, and something being done for sale doesn't alter it's value as art. Films that touch people made for money shouldn't be considered different than films that touch people made for it's own sake. To me, the response is the same and so there is not real difference.

So to me, being considered art merely adds a simple layer onto the piece, but doesn't work as a shield or excuse when people do not enjoy the art a person makes. But from what I see, some people think that art makes it elevated into some kind of special status, and that I do not understand. Is that from historical examples of art? A need to protect it from censorship? Opinion?

What does being art mean to you guys? I'm curious.

[Redbelle]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Haha, silly comment. When you let player choice dicatate the narrative for 98 percent of a series. Then force 3 endings on players that are mostly the same-well destory isn't, but anyways when you do that, players are going to be upset. It is our game and it is Bioware's game. That's what's so unique about ME, if you don't understand that then you don't get Mass Effect.

If you don't get why it's their game, first and foremost, then you don't understand writing. If you don't understand that the choice they gave you throughout the series was an illusion, then I don't know what to tell you.

True, all choice in ME is an illusion, in that while there are alternate path's. They are BW's path's and the player has no choice but to walk one of them.

However, if you want to say that, just because they wrote it, it is their's and no one else's then I must direct you to the writer's greatest asset. The editor. An editor can read through a piece of work and point out problem's. No work of fiction can do without another POV, that I know of. Writer's can get into the writing and lose their focus. An experienced writer know's to consider his or her first attempt as a draft to base the second attempt on, to pull disparate thread's together.

The term mature in wood where the writer leave's his or her work, only to come back to it later with a fresh perspective is part of the editing process. Howver, BW have tight deadline's and cannot afford this passage of time. Theirfore, they have more than one writer to give their POV on other writer's works.

These writer's need idea's. And they'l take them from whereever they can get them. The fanbase is a legitamate pool of idea's that stream forward. These idea's can be scrtinised for one's that fit and can work, and developed for consideration.

To say that the writer's are the only one's who get to decide what goes into the story boards may initially be true, but if Citadel has shown one thing, it's that fan idea's can be brought out and made to work.

Cause I've spotted alot of thing's in citadel that have been hashed about on BSN...... coincidence? That's alot of coincidence..... hmmmmmm.

[NeonFlux117]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Just because a developer write's in a U-Turn on that rule at the 11th hour of a game does not mean that the player is ready to throw away gamer logic because the dev's demand it. It's a fundamental discontent from the player's they serve.

That's fine, but that doesn't mean that they are obliged to change the ending because the gamers demand it. Especially when the most popular alternative also requires taking a U-Turn in the 11th hour.

Your talking about IT here, without going to much into it, it wouldn't be a u-turn cause it's established lore in the game and also there's substanital evidence that Shep is going through it   (dreams). But again, I think debating the ending at this point is contrived and useless, it's over and ME3 will always be remembered for it's ending. Sad but true. Let's get back on point and talk about ME as art. 

[DaveT]

Troxa wrote...

Games are NOT art, they are PRODUCT that INCLUDES art. Just like a car, a
house, furniture, and almost every other product you pay money for and
then get annoyed with if it turns out to be less than you expected.
There are artistic elements involved to be sure, but in the end, they
are only product.

Jaguar E-Type
Aston Martin DB9

[spirosz]

I tend to love me some concept art, tbh.

[spirosz]

Tbh, Journey defines "art" just as much as any artwork from MichaelAngelo

[DaveT]

To the OP's point, is it art?

Yes it is art.

Is it art that everyone likes? No, but then there are plenty of people (like me) who think Jackson ******'s work is crap.

If you want to see plenty of art that makes you question what is and isn't art, visit the Tate in London. ME3 gets over the bar a lot easier than some of that stuff.

[NeonFlux117]

spirosz wrote...

Tbh, Journey defines "art" just as much as any artwork from MichaelAngelo

agree to disagree on that one. Like comparing Kanye West to the Beatles. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Troxa wrote...

Games are NOT art, they are PRODUCT that INCLUDES art. Just like a car, a
house, furniture, and almost every other product you pay money for and
then get annoyed with if it turns out to be less than you expected.
There are artistic elements involved to be sure, but in the end, they
are only product.

Books are a product, so are films, so is music, all of these are products that everyone considers art, and are made for the sake of making profit from the creators creative works.

Even paintings and sculptures, the definitive backbone of art, was all orignally made by commision and profit. Artist made the great works of the renisance and beyond for the sake of selling their creative work for profit. They are products that the person who made them created in order to get monitary reward.

So what is your point about it being a product making it less art than other forms of art?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

It is ridiculous that people are trying to say that EA and Bioware were trying to say that the ending was *good* because of their artistic integrity. That wasn't their point at all. What they were saying was that they are entitled to end the game the way they wanted to because it is *their* game. If they changed the ending to something that the fans wrote or wanted, they'd basically be putting fan fiction into their game and ending it in a way that the writers didn't want to end their story. Dickens and Bethesda are exceptions when it comes to caving into their fans, not the rule.

It is not their game, it is our game, theirs and ours
We trusted them to do a good job, we trusted them to do a fine end to a saga that we all love
They LIED, for many of us they weren't just some random guys with a stupid game, if they were silly us, they were  our "developer of trust" and they lied since day 1
Mulyplayer, 16 endings, no A,B,C, Choices matter, Autodialogues....
They say that it is art? Fine, they were the very first to disrespect their art lying about it, lying at their customers
What type of art is that?

No, it is not. How many hours did you work on the game? How many sections of the game did you write? Did you put any funding into the game? Did you do any of the designs for the game? Did you do any marketing for the game? If the answer to all of those are zero or  no then you are in no place to say the game is yours. They never lied about autodialogue, multiplayer and IGN ran the story about the 16 endings. I have never seen a Bioware quote where they directly said there would be 16 endings.

You stupid jellyfish! Sorry, I couldn't resist. Don't mean it. I was just in Shepard mode. Go back and watch the interviews with Casey Hudson about Mass Effect. Not just about ME3, but all of them. You'll learn something. It is OUR game. You're buying some propaganda now.

I created the Franchise Fans. They are my solution to chaos. Every generation of gamers will create game companies. Without us, game companies would destroy all gamers in the world. So I created Franchise Fans.

(To Destroy gamers?)

No, we preserve them. We sow the seeds of conflict between those who support the game companies and those who value the true integrity of the franchise. This discord eventually gives way to the downfall of the overblown companies and their supporters leaving the true gamers behind to begin anew.

It is in your power to destroy us. You can destroy all franchise fans if you wish. Even you are a fan of a franchise. Or, you could attempt to control us. You will die. You will lose everything you have.

(But the Franchise Fans will obey me?)

Yes.

(There has to be another way.)

There is. Synthesis. You can add your energy to the paradigm uniting both gamer and game company into one life form. We have tried this before, but it is not something that can be "forced". But you are ready.

(I... don't know.)

Why not? Game companies already depend upon you. You have a difficult choice to make and little time. Another crash is coming in the gaming world. One similar to that in the mid-1980s. It can be stopped, but only if you act.

[Cainhurst Crow]

DaveT wrote...

To the OP's point, is it art?

Yes it is art.

Is it art that everyone likes? No, but then there are plenty of people (like me) who think Jackson ******'s work is crap.

If you want to see plenty of art that makes you question what is and isn't art, visit the Tate in London. ME3 gets over the bar a lot easier than some of that stuff.

Art shouldn't be something that everyone likes. If that was the case, discussions of art would be very boring.

[GreyLycanTrope]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Kanye West > the Beatles

Yeah. You heard me. Come at me, bro.

*thinks both are overrated*

[archangel1996]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
...

EC= Extended CUT

[TheProtheans]

Are you questioning the artistic integrity of developers who release content and do micro-transactions merely to make a buck?

[NeonFlux117]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Kanye West > the Beatles

Yeah. You heard me. Come at me, bro.

Drake > Kanye > Beatles. What ya got now homeslice?