232 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

I've always disliked the ambiguity of the word. But I absolutely loathe that stupid "artistic integrity" meme that seems to count as a perfect substitute for a legitimate argument on BSN.

[axl99]

Saying games aren't art is just like saying films are big budget product placements. The notion ignores the people who've worked on a project because all we see is end product and our need to feel satisfied.

Strictly speaking from a completely technical point of view, games ARE art. Let's not even kid ourselves.

Some of us are mistakenly associating the word "art" with the word "good". That's all there is to it.

[chemiclord]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
In most examples of what we *would* all agree to be art, I think that's exactly correct. Da Vinci didn't convene a focus group or a test audience to decide whether the Mona Lisa should be a blonde or a brunette. On the other hand, if something is clearly a product - say, a bottled beverage - and 99% of taste-testers say it makes them want to vomit, it would be crazy to ship it anyway on the grounds of the beverage-maker's "artistic integrity."

But at the same time, if the beverage maker wants to run with it anyway and risk the consumer fallout... hey, more power to them.  Whether it's a prudent move or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's their move to make.

[axl99]

Why are we including business practices in this conversation? That's so senseless.

[chemiclord]

axl99 wrote...

Why are we including business practices in this conversation? That's so senseless.

Because, as far as I can tell, there seems to be this sentiment that once something is sold for money that art might as well take a flying leap out the nearest window.

[Tonymac]

Call it what you want to.

You may call ME3 art - personally, I would describe it more as a wet dogfart.

What bothered me the most is not the term 'art' - but the term 'artistic integrity'.

At least its over now. We will see if they learn.

[xtorma]

I don't see it as art, because it is not made for art's sake. It was created to make money, and that is too much of a influence on the finished product. .

Modifié par xtorma, 21 mars 2013 - 11:02 .

[CronoDragoon]

xtorma wrote...

I don't see it as art, because it is not made for art's sake. It was created to make money, and that is too much of a influence on the finished product. .

How do you feel about all the patronized paintings from the Renaissance? Those guys were painting so they could feed themselves. Money was probably #1 for a lot of them.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 mars 2013 - 11:05 .

[Blind2Society]

I would say mass effect consists of many works of art. As a whole I see it more as an art gallery, if you get what I mean.

[xtorma]

CronoDragoon wrote...

xtorma wrote...

I don't see it as art, because it is not made for art's sake. It was created to make money, and that is too much of a influence on the finished product. .

How do you feel about all the patronized paintings from the Renaissance? Those guys were painting so they could feed themselves. Money was probably #1 for a lot of them.

I wasn't there. A bit before my time.

[spirosz]

MadCat221 wrote...

Is "Art" a dirty word in video games now?

No.

Is "Art" a dirty word for attempting to deflect criticism for bad design?

Yes.

Sums it up perfectly.  

[spirosz]

Though, you people have to understand that Bioware never actually said or wrote "Artistic Integrity" to defend their product, just a twist of words fans like to use as a meme.

[axl99]

You don't sustain a 50-100 staff studio on passion alone. These people need to make a living, but they also want to make something cool. HM. PRIORITIES.

Treating them like cogs in a machine is no better than the execs and investors who put the screws on to make sure they get their product no matter what happens to the team.

[Pepper4]

Of course it is. It is even art of a somewhat high form.

[axl99]

That has nothing to do with the actual development of a game. GTFO.

[spirosz]

axl99 wrote...

You don't sustain a 50-100 staff studio on passion alone. These people need to make a living, but they also want to make something cool. HM. PRIORITIES.

Treating them like cogs in a machine is no better than the execs and investors who put the screws on to make sure they get their product no matter what happens to the team.

People don't understand this, since most fans writing on here, have no experience in gaming development, regardless of how much an individual does research, it's nothing compared to experiencing it and more importantly, living it.  Me personally, I have no idea the amount of work it takes to create the game, I can understand the concept of working hard, long hours and being passionate about a certain task, but I don't have any form of experience in the gaming industry and that's one aspect I don't believe a lot of fans want to get.  

Yes, I'm very passionate about gaming and I'll argue that it's art, but a lot of the "hate" I see, are coming from people who believe they know everything just because they play games.  

Modifié par spirosz, 21 mars 2013 - 11:17 .

[spirosz]

Pepper4 wrote...

Of course it is. It is even art of a somewhat high form.

Do you know how to write a storyboard?  Animate?  Communicate yourself to your other peers on how this reflects the product you're trying to create? 

[Pepper4]

spirosz wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

Of course it is. It is even art of a somewhat high form.

Do you know how to write a storyboard?  Animate?  Communicate yourself to your other peers on how this reflects the product you're trying to create? 

I do not understand you. 

I said that Mass Effect is art. Great art.

[spirosz]

Do you know how to do anything that I mentioned though?

[archangel1996]

Pepper4 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

Of course it is. It is even art of a somewhat high form.

Do you know how to write a storyboard?  Animate?  Communicate yourself to your other peers on how this reflects the product you're trying to create? 

I do not understand you. 

I said that Mass Effect is art. Great art.

Yep, go to a museum and i think they will beg you in their knees to give 'em that great ******...piece of art

Modifié par archangel1996, 21 mars 2013 - 11:21 .

[Pepper4]

spirosz wrote...

Do you know how to do anything that I mentioned though?

Nop.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

chemiclord wrote...

When I read Muzyka's letter that invoked "artistic integrity"; I personally didn't see it as an attempt to squash criticism, but as a response to fans who wanted a conventional victory or a successful refuse option with a high enough EMS. Bioware's team wanted to end the game on a moral judgment, which any "golden ending" would inherently defeat. It was also a response to fan demand that the Catalyst be removed. To Bioware, it was an important element to that final conundrum (whether fans agreed with that assessment or not is irrelevant).

And THAT is artistic integrity. It's not a shield from criticism, it's not a dismissal of personal taste. It's the right to compose a work the way you want to. No more, no less.

Of course, many fans TOOK it as an insult, and went out of their way to twist and cherry-pick past and future statements to mean further insult to justify their rage.

That is pig-headedness. That was destroying the ME universe because EA put the pedal to the metal on the rush out the door, and they were like WTF do we do now? Uh, let's see.... red, blue, and green all destroy the mass relays leaving the galaxy a wasteland and in a dark age for 10,000 years. Let EA learn about rushing a game now.

But then let us not forget that same Ray Muzyka saying that the same ending was "fun" http://youtu.be/igjfrbmCDlk?t=44m47s

I'm not cherry picking here. This is a fact. They honestly thought the original ending was fun. What were they smoking?  

They used it to deflect fan criticism. They didn't understand. They were living in a bubble. Art? I would call it the most disappointing ending I've ever played. There was no conundrum. Moral judgement? There was no moral judgement! Stupid Bos'htets!

Two options didn't complete the mission. One did. Bottom line. It took me less than 1/2 second to figure out that I needed to go to the red side. Then this piano music starts playing, I see Anderson, Thane, Liara, and these red explosions, Joker, Liara, and Javik get out of the Ship, and I get a 1/4 second gasp of air. Then an old man tells says "okay one more story". And I get a screen that says "Buy DLC".

I thought I did something wrong. I felt so empty. I felt cheated. I checked on the forum. I checked Youtube. All the endings were the same.

I blew up the galaxy at 3:20 am on March 22, 2012!

ART!!!!! It was so artistic!!!!

[MegaSovereign]

I don't think Mass Effect is art in a poetic or visual sense.

I think it's a wonderful blend of sci-fi concepts we've seen before.

[Pepper4]

archangel1996 wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

Of course it is. It is even art of a somewhat high form.

Do you know how to write a storyboard?  Animate?  Communicate yourself to your other peers on how this reflects the product you're trying to create? 

I do not understand you. 

I said that Mass Effect is art. Great art.

Yep, go to a museum and i think they will beg you to give to them that great ******...piece of art

Technically, Justin Bieber's Baby is art. It is terrible art, yet it is art. Agreed?

The quality of a piece of art is always up for debate.

[HiddenInWar]

Makrys wrote...

Who cares what other people think. Call it what you want. To me, it is absolutely art. The best art of this gaming generation.

Agreed.