175 réponses à ce sujet

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...
I agree with you that ME3 is definitely better than ME1. However, I disagree with this being a "reworking" because PVP doesn't exist in mass effect right now. You can't "refine and polish" something that doesn't exist. Most people agree PVP is untenable with the current system mass effect runs with. I am not saying this is how all mass effect should be, I am saying that if there is PVP, it would have to be significantly different than anything around now.

The thing is that you're completely reworking the skill system so that it supports PvP that has some semblance of balance. This is a much bigger reworking than the system got in ME2, which was more of a heavy refining.

Most of us know the game would need to be significantly different, we're saying that it shouldn't be done for the sake of PvP.

SP and other modes of MP wouldn't necessarily have to be like this. It's not like it rules out a traditional class system for other modes, since you could just be forced to pick a single implant at the start of the game, and there you go. Powers and mechanics can also be rebalanced and altered to fit different modes, like the difference between SP and MP now. To be honest, I would at least like to see an experiment using biotics and tech like this throughout the whole game, since it's much closer to game lore than the simplistic cooldown system. Charge and program times can be shortened, all sorts of things could be changed to fit different modes.

[DHKany]

herculeswill22 wrote...

DHKany wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

As I've said in many of these threads, very few of us are saying that PvP can't be done.

We're saying that it shouldn't be done because you would need to revamp the game completely, which is exactly what you've done here.

There's no point in shoehorning in a game mode that requires you build your entire game around it, when the game didn't need that game mode in the first place.

I would rather them just polish and refine the wheel they have rather than trying to reinvent it.

The very existence of Stasis and an invisibility Cloak make PvP nigh impossible. 

You must not have played Halo, then. It's not invisibility, you're just more difficult to see. Even in Halo 4, where Active Camo is the best it's ever been, you can see cloaked people if you're paying attention. Stasis BUBBLE is overpowered in PVP, absolutely, which is why it wouldn't exist. I don't think a single target, cover blocked, and duration-of-charge stasis would be overpowered though. That said, I would more likely remove it, because lift accomplishes what niche it would have.

I have played Halo and Active Camo is nowhere near the win power TC is in Mass Effect. 

Stasis with a Sniper Rifle would just be unfun and unfair. 

[Dreadmed.2]

The biggest problem is nothing to do with actual game-play mechanics, rather it's what it will do to the community. Right now, you can engage with like-minded people, have a bit of banter, leave tips and tricks for new player's. If BW actually did something like this, even if they still incorporated a Co-op mode as well as a decent SP (which, quite frankly in my eyes, is the priority), they will introduce that competitive element.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a competitive, popular game with a PvP element that had a polite, well-mannered community relating to said PvP. I fear that if PvP was added to the next ME, and advertised as a key feature, then you're going to get players who are going to complain/attack/abuse other people who use certain build's/tactic's e.t.c, and that's just the start. I'd hate to see that happen here.

[xtorma]

I read it, and it looks to be nothing but a shooter with lip service being paid to mass effect. Nothing you assed as far as powers or power mechanics even remotely will feel like Mass Effect. You could slap the name on COD, change the weapon graphics and have basically the same thing.

[Theghostof_timmy]

DHKany wrote...



The thing is Mass Effect never had a PvP mentality, and even the powers I mentioned are just a few of the bunch that would need COMPLETE reworking or severe nerfs to even be considered for a PvP environment. 

Also I don't cont macros. Feel a bit to cheap IMO just in the same way that I frown upon the Mattock Macros people use. 

Sorry if i sounded hostile/dumb its just that this has been discussed to death. 

Respectfully man, MANY people would say Mass Effect didn't have a "Multiplayer" mentality, insisting it would and should always be 100% singleplayer, and look where we are now. It's going to happen eventually, if just because EA is going to push it on Bioware. And when that time comes, people will get used to it.

[SSuicideKKing666]

The thing is Mass Effect never had a PvP mentality, and even the powers I mentioned are just a few of the bunch that would need COMPLETE reworking or severe nerfs to even be considered for a PvP environment. 

Also I don't cont macros. Feel a bit to cheap IMO just in the same way that I frown upon the Mattock Macros people use. 

Sorry if i sounded hostile/dumb its just that this has been discussed to death. 

WoW didnt have actual PvP when it started either, it was basicly invented by the players, battle grounds and arenas (much later) were add to sate the bloodlust of the playerbase.  And macros in WoW are really just to consolidate action bar space.

Modifié par SSuicideKKing666, 22 mars 2013 - 06:16 .

[SSuicideKKing666]

Dreadmed.2 wrote...

 I fear that if PvP was added to the next ME, and advertised as a key feature, then you're going to get players who are going to complain/attack/abuse other people who use certain build's/tactic's e.t.c, and that's just the start. I'd hate to see that happen here.

Have you read the forums here lately?  This is the vocal minority, these are the people who just make waves, just about any offical forum is like that.

On the other hand I'd say the SC communitiy is probably the best behaved and well mannered.

Modifié par SSuicideKKing666, 22 mars 2013 - 06:20 .

[TheThirdRace]

herculeswill22 wrote...

It's not based on anything, other than the general framework of a 3rd person shooter. The idea is that you would spend most of your time in cover, along with your teammates. Biotics and tech users would be protected from frontal attacks by the cover, and flanking attacks by teammates. Biotics excel at flushing enemies out of cover, tech users are debuffers and defensive specialists, and combat soldiers are for cutting down exposed and weakened enemies, and protecting the more vulnerable teammates. If anything, this could be compared more to Ghost Recon.

So basically, you want to transform an hybrid RPG/Shooter into a pure shooter by removing what makes ME different from other shooters and transforming Biotics and Techs into Soldiers' biatch...

I'll tell you what I told my little brother who's an avid fan of shooters: "If you ever lay hand on my Mass Effect, I'm not responsible of what will happen to you and all your internal organs. Am I clear?"

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 22 mars 2013 - 06:26 .

[Theghostof_timmy]

@DHKany I said in the OP TC would have no damage bonuses except to a melee backstab, and maybe not even that, so a comparison to active camo is far closer. And if I were to include stasis, it would have to be to unprotected enemies to prevent unlimited cheese, and lift already fills that niche, so I wouldn't bother with it.

@Dreadmed.2 This can be a REALLY nasty place, stick around for a while. It gets quite...competitive and heated.

@Xtorma You must not have played CoD, because it's even less similar to CoD than Halo is to CoD. I explained how my powers are more lore friendly anyway above.

[Cyonan]

herculeswill22 wrote...
SP and other modes of MP wouldn't necessarily have to be like this. It's not like it rules out a traditional class system for other modes, since you could just be forced to pick a single implant at the start of the game, and there you go. Powers and mechanics can also be rebalanced and altered to fit different modes, like the difference between SP and MP now. To be honest, I would at least like to see an experiment using biotics and tech like this throughout the whole game, since it's much closer to game lore than the simplistic cooldown system. Charge and program times can be shortened, all sorts of things could be changed to fit different modes.

Only now you've got to design and maintain both setups. It's not so much reworking anymore as it is trying to have an entirely separate game within a game.

It's a point that's been brought up often in WoW as a way to better balance PvE vs PvP and I have to say I agree with Blizzard's standpoint here that I'm not a fan of my abilities doing one thing in PvE and something else in PvP.

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...
WoW didnt have actual PvP when it started either, it was basicly invented by the players, battle grounds and arenas (much later) were add to sate the bloodlust of the playerbase.  And macros in WoW are really just to consolidate action bar space.

Warcraft has always very much been about the Alliance vs the Horde vs the Big Bad(at least until Wrath of the Lich King) or just Alliance vs Horde. Mass Effect is about the galaxy coming together to fight the Reapers.

Modifié par Cyonan, 22 mars 2013 - 06:25 .

[DHKany]

herculeswill22 wrote...

@DHKany I said in the OP TC would have no damage bonuses except to a melee backstab, and maybe not even that, so a comparison to active camo is far closer. And if I were to include stasis, it would have to be to unprotected enemies to prevent unlimited cheese, and lift already fills that niche, so I wouldn't bother with it.

You see but TC would then have to grant COMPLETE invisibility otherwise it would fall into the kinda meh section of powers. If anything TF2's default cloak watch is quite frankly perfectly balanced and they should model a PvP TC off of that more than anything else. 

[Theghostof_timmy]

TheThirdRace wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

It's not based on anything, other than the general framework of a 3rd person shooter. The idea is that you would spend most of your time in cover, along with your teammates. Biotics and tech users would be protected from frontal attacks by the cover, and flanking attacks by teammates. Biotics excel at flushing enemies out of cover, tech users are debuffers and defensive specialists, and combat soldiers are for cutting down exposed and weakened enemies, and protecting the more vulnerable teammates. If anything, this could be compared more to Ghost Recon.

So basically, you want to transform an hybrid RPG/Shooter into a pure shooter by removing what makes ME different from other shooters and transform Biotics and Techs into support character for Soldiers...

I'll tell you what I told my little brother who's an avid fan of shooters: "If you ever lay hand on my Mass Effect, I'm not responsible of what will happen to you and all your internal organs. Am I clear?"

Engineers and biotics aren't support characters for weapons users, far from it. It's more the other way around, soldiers are backup for the real heavy hitters. Soldiers are the easy to use, lone wolf type people. Relatively uncomplicated, but not terribly effective. The way I envision it, an engineer/biotic team working together can annihilate enemies easily- soldiers are the more vulnerable group, since they have little to flush enemies out of cover.

[SSuicideKKing666]

Cyonan wrote...


I'm against a reworking of the game that only serves to refocus the entire game around an idea that the entire trilogy had nothing to do with. Refining and polishing existing systems that worked well is to be expected, and reworking a system that you didn't feel was working in the first place to try to achieve what you were going for is fine. Adding in new systems is also good, provided they serve a purpose.

Honestly if we're talking about the game from a purely gameplay perspective(this means not considering story, dialogue, graphics, etc.), then I think Mass Effect 3 is significantly better than Mass Effect 1. This is mainly because I didn't care much for the combat in Mass Effect 1.

I do agree that ME3 plays smoother then ME1, but only in the gunplay.  ME2/3 has amazing gunplay compared to ME1, but ME1 has an armor and weapon system that allow you to customize your whole squad to fight any enemy, it has a power system that allows you to use powers in comination without useing all the CDs for the whole squad.  The power system in ME2 was utterly painful to use after playing ME1, espcially because until you got your class specific power maxed the CD's were painfully long and most classes had no use for the other abilities 90% of the time.  ME3 they sort of fixed this by giving powers that had different requirments, IE grenades, nova, and combo explosions...

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...
SP and other modes of MP wouldn't necessarily have to be like this. It's not like it rules out a traditional class system for other modes, since you could just be forced to pick a single implant at the start of the game, and there you go. Powers and mechanics can also be rebalanced and altered to fit different modes, like the difference between SP and MP now. To be honest, I would at least like to see an experiment using biotics and tech like this throughout the whole game, since it's much closer to game lore than the simplistic cooldown system. Charge and program times can be shortened, all sorts of things could be changed to fit different modes.

Only now you've got to design and maintain both setups. It's not so much reworking anymore as it is trying to have an entirely separate game within a game.

According to the devs, the current SP and MP are seperate games. I do get your point, but there are ways to make things easier. As I laid out in my OP, Combat powers are going to be run on a regular cooldown system- worst comes to worst, they can just lay out all powers that way in other modes.

[TheThirdRace]

herculeswill22 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

It's not based on anything, other than the general framework of a 3rd person shooter. The idea is that you would spend most of your time in cover, along with your teammates. Biotics and tech users would be protected from frontal attacks by the cover, and flanking attacks by teammates. Biotics excel at flushing enemies out of cover, tech users are debuffers and defensive specialists, and combat soldiers are for cutting down exposed and weakened enemies, and protecting the more vulnerable teammates. If anything, this could be compared more to Ghost Recon.

So basically, you want to transform an hybrid RPG/Shooter into a pure shooter by removing what makes ME different from other shooters and transform Biotics and Techs into support character for Soldiers...

I'll tell you what I told my little brother who's an avid fan of shooters: "If you ever lay hand on my Mass Effect, I'm not responsible of what will happen to you and all your internal organs. Am I clear?"

Engineers and biotics aren't support characters for weapons users, far from it. It's more the other way around, soldiers are backup for the real heavy hitters. Soldiers are the easy to use, lone wolf type people. Relatively uncomplicated, but not terribly effective. The way I envision it, an engineer/biotic team working together can annihilate enemies easily- soldiers are the more vulnerable group, since they have little to flush enemies out of cover.

So you're now saying that Soldiers will be support character to Biotics and Techs... Why would anyone play a Soldier if they're not as good as the other characters? Why try to balance things when the first thing you do is cast off 1 class?

And more importantly, why do you need PVP in a game that has no roots for this?

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 22 mars 2013 - 06:37 .

[darkblade]

herculeswill22 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

It's not based on anything, other than the general framework of a 3rd person shooter. The idea is that you would spend most of your time in cover, along with your teammates. Biotics and tech users would be protected from frontal attacks by the cover, and flanking attacks by teammates. Biotics excel at flushing enemies out of cover, tech users are debuffers and defensive specialists, and combat soldiers are for cutting down exposed and weakened enemies, and protecting the more vulnerable teammates. If anything, this could be compared more to Ghost Recon.

So basically, you want to transform an hybrid RPG/Shooter into a pure shooter by removing what makes ME different from other shooters and transform Biotics and Techs into support character for Soldiers...

I'll tell you what I told my little brother who's an avid fan of shooters: "If you ever lay hand on my Mass Effect, I'm not responsible of what will happen to you and all your internal organs. Am I clear?"

Engineers and biotics aren't support characters for weapons users, far from it. It's more the other way around, soldiers are backup for the real heavy hitters. Soldiers are the easy to use, lone wolf type people. Relatively uncomplicated, but not terribly effective. The way I envision it, an engineer/biotic team working together can annihilate enemies easily- soldiers are the more vulnerable group, since they have little to flush enemies out of cover.

What?

That's not the soldier MO at all, soldiers are jacks of all trade masters of none. They do everything decently and 1 or two things really well. They are the superior class due to the sheer number of options. Soldiers were king in ME1 and ME2.

No class should hit harder than Soldier, infiltrator and Vanguard. Everyone else is pretty much support utility or power artilery. 

Modifié par darkblade, 22 mars 2013 - 06:37 .

[SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING]

if you are going to go into a PVP mode type of setup for the next ME4

PLEASE for the love of god separate them

so you would have 2 tactical cloaks one for MP and one for PVP.....in the long run it would not "effect" one or the other.....i can give you one prime example "WOW" 8 years in and they still havnt beent able to balance anything in that game respect to PVP and PVE without royally screwing one side over

[Lars10178]

So what your really saying is it should be Army of Two? or Assassin's Creed's horrible mp? nuh uh no thanks

[SSuicideKKing666]

Cyonan wrote...

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...
WoW didnt have actual PvP when it started either, it was basicly invented by the players, battle grounds and arenas (much later) were add to sate the bloodlust of the playerbase.  And macros in WoW are really just to consolidate action bar space.

Warcraft has always very much been about the Alliance vs the Horde vs the Big Bad(at least until Wrath of the Lich King) or just Alliance vs Horde. Mass Effect is about the galaxy coming together to fight the Reapers.

Not really, its always been about the common enemy, even in the current expansion which is supposed to "bring the war back to WarCraft!" the main content if defeating a common enemy, hell they already told the players that the end of this expac will be killing the corrupted leader of the horde.
And since most of the factions in ME have been killing each other for hundereds, if not thousands, of years how would it be a stretch?  And I would propose an even simpler explination to PvP for lore if people needed one, Pinnacle Station training.  That way no one dies this just a combate simulation for traing purposes.

[HolyAvenger]

Why do keep bring up CoD or Halo? If I wanted to play those games, I would. Right now ME has a niche in the market which I like and want to keep. It shouldn't throw that away to become a pale imitation of other shooters.

[Theghostof_timmy]

@Darkblade Many, many people disagree with you that soldiers are the best... and they do do one thing well, it's kill people in the open. They are allowed to carry the best weapons in the game, and all types of weapons, so they are effective at all ranges in that way. But they have little to no indirect fire abilities, so cover is a big obstacle for them.

[Theghostof_timmy]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Why do keep bring up CoD or Halo? If I wanted to play those games, I would. Right now ME has a niche in the market which I like and want to keep. It shouldn't throw that away to become a pale imitation of other shooters.

I said my idea has very, very little in common with Halo and CoD. People need comparisons in order to understand, so I'm trying to make them. I know you are trying very hard not to like this, but try and keep an open mind.

[SSuicideKKing666]

herculeswill22 wrote...

@Darkblade Many, many people disagree with you that soldiers are the best... and they do do one thing well, it's kill people in the open. They are allowed to carry the best weapons in the game, and all types of weapons, so they are effective at all ranges in that way. But they have little to no indirect fire abilities, so cover is a big obstacle for them.

I do think you're wrong here, grenades, CS, PM (i'm sure there are more) are all great at getting enemies out of cover, also theres bullet penetraion, that gets them most of the time.  While I think your proposed ideas are kind of bad and would irreparably alter the core of the game, I do think PvP for the series would be amazing and there are a lot of ways to go about it. 

[Cyonan]

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...

I do agree that ME3 plays smoother then ME1, but only in the gunplay.  ME2/3 has amazing gunplay compared to ME1, but ME1 has an armor and weapon system that allow you to customize your whole squad to fight any enemy, it has a power system that allows you to use powers in comination without useing all the CDs for the whole squad.  The power system in ME2 was utterly painful to use after playing ME1, espcially because until you got your class specific power maxed the CD's were painfully long and most classes had no use for the other abilities 90% of the time.  ME3 they sort of fixed this by giving powers that had different requirments, IE grenades, nova, and combo explosions...

As I said in another thread, while ME1 had all the lovely weapons and armour mods it also had a grand total of 4 unique guns. ME3 also has a bunch of weapon mods, and the MP specifically has a bunch of gear, in addition to having a significantly better weapon variety.

The skill system got thorough refining in ME2 yes. This is not like the complete reworking that the OP is talking about, however, and was not done to shift the focus of the game. 

Some people might have liked the old system better, which is always a risk you run. I personally prefer heat to having ammo even if I think the gunplay is better now.

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...
Not really, its always been about the common enemy, even in the current expansion which is supposed to "bring the war back to WarCraft!" the main content if defeating a common enemy, hell they already told the players that the end of this expac will be killing the corrupted leader of the horde.
And since most of the factions in ME have been killing each other for hundereds, if not thousands, of years how would it be a stretch?  And I would propose an even simpler explination to PvP for lore if people needed one, Pinnacle Station training.  That way no one dies this just a combate simulation for traing purposes.

I'm talking about Warcraft in general, not just World of Warcraft.

Even then, vanilla WoW was still very much a Horde vs Alliance with no common big bad, and Burning Crusade we started to see some teamwork. WotLK everybody teamed up because the Undead were trying to eat everybody again. Cata wasn't really about the Alliance but rather about Thrall apparently being amazing at everything.

It's not a case of there was a few bandits, pirates, or mercs fighting. The idea of the Horde vs the Alliance has been built into the lore of Warcraft from day 1 and Metzen decided he wanted a common big bad(He has this thing about doing that) while Mass Effect was always about uniting the galaxy and getting everybody to stop killing each other long enough to fight the Reapers.

[SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Why do keep bring up CoD or Halo? If I wanted to play those games, I would. Right now ME has a niche in the market which I like and want to keep. It shouldn't throw that away to become a pale imitation of other shooters.

becuase these 2 fail games have produced a toxtic generatoin of TERRIBAD kids for the gaming community especially to the PC community....now you have these developers game makers whatever you want to call them want a slice of the pie$$$ and now focusing more on consoles and most PC games are now ports......and it is true

A console system is cheaper than the PC....but with kids these days want the insta gratification of everything handed to them, it is curbing quality fo games down the drain hence why COD is doing so dam well why re-event the wheel.

i swaer most of the kids these days dont have a long enough attention span to anything anything more than 2mins of angry fail bird is consider to much i suppose....

....also all these casual facebook apps games are also adding to the toxic enviroment.

my first and last console was the super nintendo....i grew up during that time when nintendo really took off...best childlife ever.....