175 réponses à ce sujet

[Theghostof_timmy]

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

@Darkblade Many, many people disagree with you that soldiers are the best... and they do do one thing well, it's kill people in the open. They are allowed to carry the best weapons in the game, and all types of weapons, so they are effective at all ranges in that way. But they have little to no indirect fire abilities, so cover is a big obstacle for them.

I do think you're wrong here, grenades, CS, PM (i'm sure there are more) are all great at getting enemies out of cover, also theres bullet penetraion, that gets them most of the time.  While I think your proposed ideas are kind of bad and would irreparably alter the core of the game, I do think PvP for the series would be amazing and there are a lot of ways to go about it. 

I meant in how I have them. I'd really like to hear some of these "lots of ways" because I'll bet the vast majority will either be broken and unbalanced or too similar to other franchises.

[Cyonan]

herculeswill22 wrote...

According to the devs, the current SP and MP are seperate games. I do get your point, but there are ways to make things easier. As I laid out in my OP, Combat powers are going to be run on a regular cooldown system- worst comes to worst, they can just lay out all powers that way in other modes.

The numbers are different, but the ability remains the same mechanically for the most part except Singularity and a few evolutions here and there(like Amplification for Conc Shot).

Imagine if every ability was like Singularity or Conc Shot, where it has an entirely new mechanic based on what game mode you were playing.

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

According to the devs, the current SP and MP are seperate games. I do get your point, but there are ways to make things easier. As I laid out in my OP, Combat powers are going to be run on a regular cooldown system- worst comes to worst, they can just lay out all powers that way in other modes.

The numbers are different, but the ability remains the same mechanically for the most part except Singularity and a few evolutions here and there(like Amplification for Conc Shot).

Imagine if every ability was like Singularity or Conc Shot, where it has an entirely new mechanic based on what game mode you were playing.

But it isn't every ability. More than between SP and MP perhaps, but not an unmanageable number. Some things like Overload and Lift would need some mechanics changes, but stuff like throw and warp wouldn't necessarily. I don't think it would be as difficult to manage as you think. Keep in mind that this will likely be on next gen consoles as well.

[Deucetipher]

OP, I think your suggestion would be too resource intensive, in light of the current iteration of the game, for all the reasons already cited.

Cyonan, what about a Battlefront-style implementation? Basic soldiers (sans concussive shot) until you get a promotion, at which point you get a random promotion to one of the "true" MP classes in all of its ragdolling, stasis-ing glory.

PVP isn't really my thing, but something like that would be easier to implement, I think. It would also maintain the "flavor" of abilities like singularity, stasis and others. It wouldn't appeal to me the way the current model does, but it might be fun for an occasional play

Modifié par Deucetipher, 22 mars 2013 - 06:59 .

[Theghostof_timmy]

Deucetipher wrote...

OP, I think your suggestion would be too resource intensive, in light of the current iteration of the game, for all the reasons already cited.

Cyonan, what about a Battlefront-style implementation? Basic soldiers (sans concussive shot) until you get a promotion, at which point you get a random promotion to one of the "true" MP in all of its ragdolling, stasis-ing glory.

PVP isn't really my thing, but something like that would be easier to implement, I think. It would also maintain the "flavor" of abilities like singularity, stasis and others. It wouldn't appeal to me the way the current model does, but it might be fun for an occasional play

I just ninja'd you with it, but the next ME game is almost guaranteed to be on next gen consoles, which will  be able to handle that.

[Cyonan]

herculeswill22 wrote...

But it isn't every ability. More than between SP and MP perhaps, but not an unmanageable number. Some things like Overload and Lift would need some mechanics changes, but stuff like throw and warp wouldn't necessarily. I don't think it would be as difficult to manage as you think. Keep in mind that this will likely be on next gen consoles as well.

If Throw was kept in the current state, it would be more stunlock than the Geth pre-nerf on the Prime.

You can't have an ability with a stagger on a cooldown that can become lower than 1 second in PvP.

Given how short our cooldowns are, nearly every CC or stagger ability would need a change because any of them would make it worse than the Geth.

Have you played Mirror Match with no teammates in the Armax Arena? That's how I see things working out if you don't =P

[SSuicideKKing666]

Cyonan wrote...

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...

I do agree that ME3 plays smoother then ME1, but only in the gunplay.  ME2/3 has amazing gunplay compared to ME1, but ME1 has an armor and weapon system that allow you to customize your whole squad to fight any enemy, it has a power system that allows you to use powers in comination without useing all the CDs for the whole squad.  The power system in ME2 was utterly painful to use after playing ME1, espcially because until you got your class specific power maxed the CD's were painfully long and most classes had no use for the other abilities 90% of the time.  ME3 they sort of fixed this by giving powers that had different requirments, IE grenades, nova, and combo explosions...

I agree this guys ideas are pretty bad, but I think PvP in this series would be amazing.  And like I said somewhere in this thread and some others, the best starting point would be ME1's armor and weapon cusomization systems.  With those you can gear a character to make up for player weakness or to buff strengths.  I'm also very much against ME have large scare PvP, I think squad vs squad is how they should do it, like 3v3.  Make it about team strength.

Modifié par SSuicideKKing666, 22 mars 2013 - 07:03 .

[SSuicideKKing666]

double post for some reason...

Modifié par SSuicideKKing666, 22 mars 2013 - 07:02 .

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

But it isn't every ability. More than between SP and MP perhaps, but not an unmanageable number. Some things like Overload and Lift would need some mechanics changes, but stuff like throw and warp wouldn't necessarily. I don't think it would be as difficult to manage as you think. Keep in mind that this will likely be on next gen consoles as well.

If Throw was kept in the current state, it would be more stunlock than the Geth pre-nerf on the Prime.

You can't have an ability with a stagger on a cooldown that can become lower than 1 second in PvP.

Given how short our cooldowns are, nearly every CC or stagger ability would need a change because any of them would make it worse than the Geth.

Have you played Mirror Match with no teammates in the Armax Arena? That's how I see things working out if you don't =P

I see the charge mechanic as having thresholds of effectiveness, 'levels' if you will. You have to reach a certain charge level for the power to have ANY effect, depending on the power, and subseqent levels increase the strength. With a rewritten force mechanic, some cool things could be done. I'll use throw as an example: it can be quickly charged and used, but it has very little effect. At level 1, which is maybe a little less than a second, using the power will do little more than throw off their aim, wiggle their reticle a bit. Level 2 wiggles their reticle and slows them down somewhat if shielded, if unshielded it stops them in their tracks for a moment. Level 3 stops them if shielded, staggers them if unshielded. Level 4 (only attainable for asari using their racial power) staggers no matter what. To achieve level 3 or higher, though, you need to stay charging for about 3 seconds, which isn't really stunlock.

[Cyonan]

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...
I agree this guys ideas are pretty bad, but I think PvP in this series would be amazing.  And like I said somewhere in this thread and some others, the best starting point would be ME1's armor and weapon cusomization systems.  With those you can gear a character to make up for player weakness or to buff strengths.  I'm also very much against ME have large scare PvP, I think squad vs squad is how they should do it, like 3v3.  Make it about team strength.

The main issue I have is that every proposal for PvP in this game is something that requires rebuilding things from the ground up to support PvP or would devolve into a staggerfest. Even in this case, it's building a game within a game from the ground up that functions differently from the rest of the game.

I would rather them refine and polish the co-operative experience and give us new game modes within that rather than trying to shoehorn in a PvP game mode. As I said before, refine the wheel you have rather than reinventing it to be something other than a wheel.

[shnig_1]

Silly haters, this is actually a fairly well thought out and interesting idea.

I APPROVE

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

SSuicideKKing666 wrote...
I agree this guys ideas are pretty bad, but I think PvP in this series would be amazing.  And like I said somewhere in this thread and some others, the best starting point would be ME1's armor and weapon cusomization systems.  With those you can gear a character to make up for player weakness or to buff strengths.  I'm also very much against ME have large scare PvP, I think squad vs squad is how they should do it, like 3v3.  Make it about team strength.

The main issue I have is that every proposal for PvP in this game is something that requires rebuilding things from the ground up to support PvP or would devolve into a staggerfest. Even in this case, it's building a game within a game from the ground up that functions differently from the rest of the game.

I would rather them refine and polish the co-operative experience and give us new game modes within that rather than trying to shoehorn in a PvP game mode. As I said before, refine the wheel you have rather than reinventing it to be something other than a wheel.

Or you can look at it as giving the wheeled vehicle wings, so now you can fly if you want to, rather than being confined to the ground. The vehicle will have to be redesigned to be more aerodynamic, and will have to be larger to support the wings, but perhaps the extra work is worth being able to fly?

[xtorma]

herculeswill22 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

But it isn't every ability. More than between SP and MP perhaps, but not an unmanageable number. Some things like Overload and Lift would need some mechanics changes, but stuff like throw and warp wouldn't necessarily. I don't think it would be as difficult to manage as you think. Keep in mind that this will likely be on next gen consoles as well.

If Throw was kept in the current state, it would be more stunlock than the Geth pre-nerf on the Prime.

You can't have an ability with a stagger on a cooldown that can become lower than 1 second in PvP.

Given how short our cooldowns are, nearly every CC or stagger ability would need a change because any of them would make it worse than the Geth.

Have you played Mirror Match with no teammates in the Armax Arena? That's how I see things working out if you don't =P

I see the charge mechanic as having thresholds of effectiveness, 'levels' if you will. You have to reach a certain charge level for the power to have ANY effect, depending on the power, and subseqent levels increase the strength. With a rewritten force mechanic, some cool things could be done. I'll use throw as an example: it can be quickly charged and used, but it has very little effect. At level 1, which is maybe a little less than a second, using the power will do little more than throw off their aim, wiggle their reticle a bit. Level 2 wiggles their reticle and slows them down somewhat if shielded, if unshielded it stops them in their tracks for a moment. Level 3 stops them if shielded, staggers them if unshielded. Level 4 (only attainable for asari using their racial power) staggers no matter what. To achieve level 3 or higher, though, you need to stay charging for about 3 seconds, which isn't really stunlock.

If you significatly change the way powers work, then you change the entire game. You end up with something that only looks like mass effect, but does not feel that way. I am not so sure I am willing to give up the feel of the powers and game in order to play against another human.

[Cyonan]

herculeswill22 wrote...
I see the charge mechanic as having thresholds of effectiveness, 'levels' if you will. You have to reach a certain charge level for the power to have ANY effect, depending on the power, and subseqent levels increase the strength. With a rewritten force mechanic, some cool things could be done. I'll use throw as an example: it can be quickly charged and used, but it has very little effect. At level 1, which is maybe a little less than a second, using the power will do little more than throw off their aim, wiggle their reticle a bit. Level 2 wiggles their reticle and slows them down somewhat if shielded, if unshielded it stops them in their tracks for a moment. Level 3 stops them if shielded, staggers them if unshielded. Level 4 (only attainable for asari using their racial power) staggers no matter what. To achieve level 3 or higher, though, you need to stay charging for about 3 seconds, which isn't really stunlock.

Even 3 seconds per stagger is a lot considering that you're staggered for much of that.

To put it in perspective, in World of Warcraft my Paladin gets Hammer of Justice which is a 1 minute cooldown stun that can be specced for a 30 second cooldown(doing this sacrifices other valuable CC abilities since you can only pick 1 ability for that tier). The shortest cooldown stun I can think of off the top of my head is 20 seconds.

The Geth doesn't even stagger you that often, and people hate fighting them. People aren't going to enjoy being staggered often in PvP.

[Cyonan]

herculeswill22 wrote...

Or you can look at it as giving the wheeled vehicle wings, so now you can fly if you want to, rather than being confined to the ground. The vehicle will have to be redesigned to be more aerodynamic, and will have to be larger to support the wings, but perhaps the extra work is worth being able to fly?

That implies that it's purely an improvement in every way.

This is more like having a truck then rebuilding a car out of it.

People will note that there are benefits of having a car and that some might prefer a car, but people were originally brought here because they wanted the truck.

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...
I see the charge mechanic as having thresholds of effectiveness, 'levels' if you will. You have to reach a certain charge level for the power to have ANY effect, depending on the power, and subseqent levels increase the strength. With a rewritten force mechanic, some cool things could be done. I'll use throw as an example: it can be quickly charged and used, but it has very little effect. At level 1, which is maybe a little less than a second, using the power will do little more than throw off their aim, wiggle their reticle a bit. Level 2 wiggles their reticle and slows them down somewhat if shielded, if unshielded it stops them in their tracks for a moment. Level 3 stops them if shielded, staggers them if unshielded. Level 4 (only attainable for asari using their racial power) staggers no matter what. To achieve level 3 or higher, though, you need to stay charging for about 3 seconds, which isn't really stunlock.

Even 3 seconds per stagger is a lot considering that you're staggered for much of that.

To put it in perspective, in World of Warcraft my Paladin gets Hammer of Justice which is a 1 minute cooldown stun that can be specced for a 30 second cooldown(doing this sacrifices other valuable CC abilities since you can only pick 1 ability for that tier). The shortest cooldown stun I can think of off the top of my head is 20 seconds.

The Geth doesn't even stagger you that often, and people hate fighting them. People aren't going to enjoy being staggered often in PvP.

Shooters are considerably more fast paced than WoW. And the difference is, your hammer of justice does damage. Throw does not. It is only capable of slowing an enemy down. By the time you get 2 throws off, they've closed with you most likely. Being a projectile, throw is also dodgeable.

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

Or you can look at it as giving the wheeled vehicle wings, so now you can fly if you want to, rather than being confined to the ground. The vehicle will have to be redesigned to be more aerodynamic, and will have to be larger to support the wings, but perhaps the extra work is worth being able to fly?

That implies that it's purely an improvement in every way.

This is more like having a truck then rebuilding a car out of it.

People will note that there are benefits of having a car and that some might prefer a car, but people were originally brought here because they wanted the truck.

Argh, I can't think up an appropriate car analogy. I guess you win that one, that was fun. Anyways, I guarantee you the next game is going to have changes, fundamental or cosmetic, for better or for worse. It may not look like any of the previous games functionally, each game has so far been fundamentally changed from the others. I propose this as an experiment. A forgettable episode if it fails, a grand new addition to the legacy if it succeeds.

[oknenah]

I made a serious attempt at reading this but could not go any farther when I read biotic combos removed.

[Theghostof_timmy]

oknenah wrote...

I made a serious attempt at reading this but could not go any farther when I read biotic combos removed.

I've said it earlier, they would serve no purpose in a PVP game. Can people honestly not imagine a game without them? There were only 1 or 2 biotic combos in ME2, all of them involving warp, and none in ME1.

Modifié par herculeswill22, 22 mars 2013 - 07:40 .

[Cyonan]

herculeswill22 wrote...

Shooters are considerably more fast paced than WoW. And the difference is, your hammer of justice does damage. Throw does not. It is only capable of slowing an enemy down. By the time you get 2 throws off, they've closed with you most likely. Being a projectile, throw is also dodgeable.

Actually, Hammer of Justice doesn't do damage =P

The point isn't about damage or pacing however, but rather that people are not going to enjoy being staggered that often. Just look at the complaints about the Geth.

It doesn't matter if I live for 5 seconds or 50 seconds, if I can't control my character for half of it it's going to be frustrating.

[xtorma]

herculeswill22 wrote...

oknenah wrote...

I made a serious attempt at reading this but could not go any farther when I read biotic combos removed.

I've said it earlier, they would serve no purpose in a PVP game. Can people honestly not imagine a game without them? There were only 1 or 2 biotic combos in ME2, all of them involving warp, and none in ME1.

You are going backward though. Combos make the game much more interesting. Powers woking as they do make the game much more interesting. I mean if every power just staggers, why do we need a huge list of them. Throw is just that, it hurls unprotected mobs across the map, damaging them with the force.  

Mass effect fields do certian things to people and objects in the mass effect universe. If you change how mass effect fields work you change the mass effect universe. You basically want to rewrite the physics of the mass effect universe so you can pvp. If you can't see the problem with this, it can't be explained to you. 

I guess you could always JJ Abrams it though.

[Theghostof_timmy]

Cyonan wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

Shooters are considerably more fast paced than WoW. And the difference is, your hammer of justice does damage. Throw does not. It is only capable of slowing an enemy down. By the time you get 2 throws off, they've closed with you most likely. Being a projectile, throw is also dodgeable.

Actually, Hammer of Justice doesn't do damage =P

The point isn't about damage or pacing however, but rather that people are not going to enjoy being staggered that often. Just look at the complaints about the Geth.

It doesn't matter if I live for 5 seconds or 50 seconds, if I can't control my character for half of it it's going to be frustrating.

That's the point I've been trying to make though, ideally you won't be spending much time in the open where you are easily staggered. Most if not all powers will be unable to stagger in cover. Pacing is entirely relevant, since in a mmo type game like wow where you just stand still and hack at each other with abilities and whatnot battles can last a full minute. A few seconds of stun is nothing. In a shooter, a second of stun can mean instant death. On the other hand, being staggered 1 second out of 3 still leaves you 2 seconds to get closer and attack, and a single landed hit will prevent the throw user from charging throw. Stagger in my idea will be a delaying tactic, not a war winner.

[Theghostof_timmy]

xtorma wrote...

herculeswill22 wrote...

oknenah wrote...

I made a serious attempt at reading this but could not go any farther when I read biotic combos removed.

I've said it earlier, they would serve no purpose in a PVP game. Can people honestly not imagine a game without them? There were only 1 or 2 biotic combos in ME2, all of them involving warp, and none in ME1.

You are going backward though. Combos make the game much more interesting. Powers woking as they do make the game much more interesting. I mean if every power just staggers, why do we need a huge list of them. Throw is just that, it hurls unprotected mobs across the map, damaging them with the force.  

Mass effect fields do certian things to people and objects in the mass effect universe. If you change how mass effect fields work you change the mass effect universe. You basically want to rewrite the physics of the mass effect universe so you can pvp. If you can't see the problem with this, it can't be explained to you. 

I guess you could always JJ Abrams it though.

They don't all stagger, very few of them do. Where did I say anything about changing the nature of mass effect fields? If you read the Mass effect novels, you will find that my version fits more with lore than the game, which is affected by the fact that it's a game, and thus has balance and pacing issues. This multiplayer was a first for Bioware, all successive games don't have to be exactly like this one.

[Stinja]

OP's ideas sound awful.

Basically it would be a shooter with "implant perks"? Seems very skewed to weapon focused classes with "protection", little fun space-magic, so a kind of CoD with aliens vibe.

0 / 10 would-not-even-learn-2-bang-to-not-bang

[vonSlash]

This is probably the best suggestion for ME PvP I've ever seen...not that that's much of an accomplishment or anything. Still, I'd rather not see a system like this implemented, mainly because it'd be difficult to properly balance such a setup (especially with a microtransaction system, as the rarer stuff would need to be *slightly* better for people to spend $$$), and if there are some builds that are notably more efficient than others, it would both restrict the diversity of player choice and give more experienced players an advantage above and beyond skill differences (and in a PvP game, having victory be influenced or determined by any factors other than luck and player skill is foolish, at best).


To be fair, though, I probably wouldn't support any PvP suggestion no matter how well-crafted, because I think glorifying competition is really goddamn stupid.