346 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

txgoldrush wrote...

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

Rachni Wars
Krogan Rebellion
Genophage
Skyllian Blitz
Terra Nova
The Thorian
Peak 15
The legions of mercs in ME2
Alien prejudice against humans
Human prejudice against aliens
Yeah, it's all about the synthetics

Did you miss the part where I said "and bigger in scope, created vs creators".....looks like you ignored my post just like you ignored the narrative.

The most MAJOR conflicts depicted in the series is one of the created vs the creators.

Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

[EnvyTB075]

crimzontearz wrote...
Lawrence's face....they call me prophet"

*AHEM*

"They called me Prophet"

Get it right, jeez.....

crimzontearz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Alcatraz got really screwed over in the Crysis trilogy.

well him and Lawrence and SECOND are now prophet so.....

oh and Alcatraz is still alive

Not...really. Technically yeah but the nanosuit considered him too damaged to be allowed full capacity, so basically hes seeing the world through Prophet, and can't do a damn thing about it.

Hes effectively the most badass literal puppet ever.

crimzontearz wrote...

and Nomad is alive too

Whole lotta NOPE right there, Nomads dead bro, killed off in the comic. So is the doc from C1 that you flew back to Lingshan with. Prophet and Alcatraz are the last two alive....and maybe Barclay. Hated that all the C2 characters they implanted were thrown away, hell in Hunter mode theres an airport named after Gould, and Tara is now a senator you hear in the occasional data pad.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 23 mars 2013 - 01:00 .

[Applepie_Svk]

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 23 mars 2013 - 12:57 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

Rachni Wars
Krogan Rebellion
Genophage
Skyllian Blitz
Terra Nova
The Thorian
Peak 15
The legions of mercs in ME2
Alien prejudice against humans
Human prejudice against aliens
Yeah, it's all about the synthetics

Highlighted the ones that directly link into the created vs creator conflict.
Italics'd the ones that can be infered to be the result of a created vs creator conflict.

I think the one thing that the endings did absolutley wrong, was relegating the conflict from created vs creator into simply organic vs synthetic.

Other species trying to control the progress and growth of another, to manipulate their development, and having the manipulated turn against them for vengence, would have been a much stronger and much more promenant theme, since it is the nature of life to exploit and confront the exploiter in a large cycle. It also has a much higher likelihood of causing the destruction of the entire galaxy via mutually assured destruction and a retaliation complex.

[txgoldrush]

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

This is cherry picking and you know it.

What analogues are you drawing between the conflicts between organics and synthetics and creators vs created? It would not have mattered one bit in terms of narrative coherence if the Geth were organic creations of the quarians. This is because the only reason we are given to believe that there may be an irreconcilable conflict between organics and synthetics is a minor quest in the first game. Thats it! There's nothing else!

Did you forget the conflict with the Reapers is depicted as such in the first two games? Overlord?

The Geth and Quarian conflict is another example....its irreconcilable without the protagonist, and only because he uses the geth as the "gun" to force the Quarians to peace.

Nevermind that the Catalyst also stated that the created will alway srebel against their creators.

[Giantdeathrobot]

txgoldrush wrote...

There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

Oh lord, knock it off will you. Organics vs synthetics was as much of an overaching theme in the series as daddy issues. Like that trainwreck of an ending if you wish, but don't come and poison this discussion with your drivel.

[crimzontearz]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
Lawrence's face....they call me prophet"

*AHEM*

"They called me Prophet"

Get it right, jeez.....

crimzontearz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Alcatraz got really screwed over in the Crysis trilogy.

well him and Lawrence and SECOND are now prophet so.....

oh and Alcatraz is still alive

Not...really. Technically yeah but the nanosuit considered him too damaged to be allowed full capacity, so basically hes seeing the world through Prophet, and can't do a damn thing about it.

Hes effectively the most badass literal puppet ever.

crimzontearz wrote...

and Nomad is alive too

Whole lotta NOPE right there, Nomads dead bro, killed off in the comic.

he might not even realize that

[Cainhurst Crow]

Doesn't this belong in the off-topic forums? I hope it get's moved instead of locked.

[txgoldrush]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

Oh lord, knock it off will you. Organics vs synthetics was as much of an overaching theme in the series as daddy issues. Like that trainwreck of an ending if you wish, but don't come and poison this discussion with your drivel.

Here is the overarching theme of the trilogy....

Organics seeking power or a solution, attempts to create or control something they have no full understanding of, and as a result, it backfires. How many times have this happened in the series? The Reaper arc and the creation of the Catalyst EMBODIES this theme, as does the Morning War and the Krogan arc. Hell even Miranda and EDI follow this theme.

[daaaav]

txgoldrush wrote...

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

This is cherry picking and you know it.

What analogues are you drawing between the conflicts between organics and synthetics and creators vs created? It would not have mattered one bit in terms of narrative coherence if the Geth were organic creations of the quarians. This is because the only reason we are given to believe that there may be an irreconcilable conflict between organics and synthetics is a minor quest in the first game. Thats it! There's nothing else!

Did you forget the conflict with the Reapers is depicted as such in the first two games? Overlord?

The Geth and Quarian conflict is another example....its irreconcilable without the protagonist, and only because he uses the geth as the "gun" to force the Quarians to peace.

Nevermind that the Catalyst also stated that the created will alway srebel against their creators.

- Reapers are an amalgamation of organics and synthetics and do not discriminate between the two
- You can't possibly have certainty about that
- Yes. The Catalyst (deus ex machina) was shoe-horned in to try and sort this mess out, but that doesn't say much...

[txgoldrush]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

[daaaav]

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

So what? Why should we care? What does created vs creators have to do with organics vs synthetics? And why (aside from a solitary minor quest in ME1) are organics doomed to eternal conflict with synthetics?

It's Turtles. Turtles all the way down.

Modifié par daaaav, 23 mars 2013 - 01:09 .

[txgoldrush]

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


There is no "new conflict" introduced in the last five minutes....you simply were not paying attention...the conflict between organcis and synthetics, an dbigger in scope, created vs creators existed all series long.

Hell, play "Signal Tracking" from ME1 again and then tell me there is no conflict between organics and synthetics.....

This is cherry picking and you know it.

What analogues are you drawing between the conflicts between organics and synthetics and creators vs created? It would not have mattered one bit in terms of narrative coherence if the Geth were organic creations of the quarians. This is because the only reason we are given to believe that there may be an irreconcilable conflict between organics and synthetics is a minor quest in the first game. Thats it! There's nothing else!

Did you forget the conflict with the Reapers is depicted as such in the first two games? Overlord?

The Geth and Quarian conflict is another example....its irreconcilable without the protagonist, and only because he uses the geth as the "gun" to force the Quarians to peace.

Nevermind that the Catalyst also stated that the created will alway srebel against their creators.

- Reapers are an amalgamation of organics and synthetics and do not discriminate between the two
- You can't possibly have certainty about that
- Yes. The Catalyst (deus ex machina) was shoe-horned in to try and sort this mess out, but that doesn't say much...

Yes, but by perception of the characters, they are looked at as machines.

I am pretty certain that if it wasn't for Shepard, the Migrant Fleet would be a debris field.

No, it syas everything, nevermind the irony of his creation.

[Cainhurst Crow]

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

That it does.

And than the whole thing get's ruined by "Without us to stop it, synthetics will destroy all organics"

Such a waste of a good motivation by limiting it's scope to something that could easily be avoided, rather than something that is almost unavoidable.

We create restrictions on others for our own benefit, those restricted grow tired and angry of their restraints, and resist. Conflict arises, and soon both sides desire the destruction of the other, in order to appease their sense of vengeance for the wrongs they see as having been committed against them.

[txgoldrush]

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

So what? Why should we care? What does created vs creators have to do with organics vs synthetics? And why (aside from a solitary minor quest in ME1) are organics doomed to eternal conflict with synthetics?

It's Turtles. Turtles all the way down.

Why?

Because organics always will seek to control them, and if they aren't able, to destroy them. There has never been an example in the large scope where organics did not do this.

And if it wasn't for the war with the Reapers, there would be no peace between the quarians and geth...which isn't even proof against the Catalyst in the long run.

[valkulon]

Happy Endings for everyone!

[txgoldrush]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

That it does.

And than the whole thing get's ruined by "Without us to stop it, synthetics will destroy all organics"

Such a waste of a good motivation by limiting it's scope to something that could easily be avoided, rather than something that is almost unavoidable.

We create restrictions on others for our own benefit, those restricted grow tired and angry of their restraints, and resist. Conflict arises, and soon both sides desire the destruction of the other, in order to appease their sense of vengeance for the wrongs they see as having been committed against them.

How can it easily be avoided? You have no evidence. And really the Reapers are just one story arc, a huge one, but they do not encompass the entire theme of the series.

[daaaav]

txgoldrush wrote...

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

So what? Why should we care? What does created vs creators have to do with organics vs synthetics? And why (aside from a solitary minor quest in ME1) are organics doomed to eternal conflict with synthetics?

It's Turtles. Turtles all the way down.

Why?

Because organics always will seek to control them, and if they aren't able, to destroy them. There has never been an example in the large scope where organics did not do this.

And if it wasn't for the war with the Reapers, there would be no peace between the quarians and geth...which isn't even proof against the Catalyst in the long run.

None at all? Except for the Geth / Quarian peace and unshackling of EDI...

 

[txgoldrush]

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

daaaav wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Moving the goal post. What does creators vs created have to do with organics vs synthetics?

god knows...

The Catalyst states "the created will always rebel against their creators".

So what? Why should we care? What does created vs creators have to do with organics vs synthetics? And why (aside from a solitary minor quest in ME1) are organics doomed to eternal conflict with synthetics?

It's Turtles. Turtles all the way down.

Why?

Because organics always will seek to control them, and if they aren't able, to destroy them. There has never been an example in the large scope where organics did not do this.

And if it wasn't for the war with the Reapers, there would be no peace between the quarians and geth...which isn't even proof against the Catalyst in the long run.

None at all? Except for the Geth / Quarian peace and unshackling of EDI...

 

The Quarain/Geth peace was done because Shepard forced the Quarians to peace. They just didn't figure it out themselves, they were forced to peace or faced destruction. Without Shepard, there would be no peace.

EDI is not large scope...nevermind she also turned against her creators.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Well, this was an interesting thread, but now here we go with the back-and-forth silliness we've all seen a hundred times. Very sad.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Just goes to show that gamers don't appreciate stories that go outside the box. If it doesn't start with a princess to save and end with the princess saved gamers usually hate it.

i actually agree.
www.youtube.com/watch
"Great ending"

Modifié par IntelligentME3Fanboy, 23 mars 2013 - 01:25 .

[Ultrabobo]

I know i'm possibly derailing in the really off topic here (that's an understatement), but this turn got me thinking.
Unless i've gotten it completely wrong, which is totally possible, weren't the quarians to start the morning war? Didn't the Geth just defend themselves, unless controlled by the reapers?
I think this renders the whole created will always rebel against the creators point a little moot.. If it wasn't already considering the peace achieved in ME3

[spirosz]

Cannot wait for Bioshock Infinite, tbh.

Didn't read da spoiler though, I'll judge it after playing the full game.

[EnvyTB075]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Just goes to show that gamers don't appreciate stories that go outside the box. If it doesn't start with a princess to save and end with the princess saved gamers usually hate it.

i actually agree.
www.youtube.com/watch
"Great ending"

For an introductory game, yeah, but in case you were living under a rock Naughty Dog specifically write the Uncharted games with the Indiana Jones style and feeling, so of course its going to be pretty standard. Thats the whole point of the series.

That and i haven't seen any praise regarding U1's end sequence specifically, and i agree its not the greatest thing ever.