346 réponses à ce sujet

[Ultrabobo]

txgoldrush wrote...

Ultrabobo wrote...

@EnvyTB075: I'm just saying Edi "rebelled" against her/it's creators, Cerberus. Merely stating the fact. Personally i think was a good thing, and in no way a threat to anyone, just calling it as i see it.

@txgoldrush: Now we're dealing in what ifs, So what if organics stop shooting Geth and they all live toghether? What ifs work both ways.

But the organics wouldn't stop firing, and it takes them the threat of destruction to do so.

Also take the Rannoch Reapers words into account. He foreshadows the Reapers motives.

Don't get me the wrong way, but really you can't answer to what happens in game with what ifs, and to what ifs with what happens in games, becomes kind of annoying.
Anyway, the Rannoch Reaper just spews the usual Reaper stuff, "you cannot understand, we are salvation" and whatnot. Believe it or not i went through that stage this afternoon, really, is still fresh.

All i'm trying to say is that Geth weren't a threat to anyone in the galaxy for nearly three centuries (i think in ME people says no one saw them for that long), there's no reason whatsoever to think civilization was in danger.

[txgoldrush]

Ultrabobo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ultrabobo wrote...

@EnvyTB075: I'm just saying Edi "rebelled" against her/it's creators, Cerberus. Merely stating the fact. Personally i think was a good thing, and in no way a threat to anyone, just calling it as i see it.

@txgoldrush: Now we're dealing in what ifs, So what if organics stop shooting Geth and they all live toghether? What ifs work both ways.

But the organics wouldn't stop firing, and it takes them the threat of destruction to do so.

Also take the Rannoch Reapers words into account. He foreshadows the Reapers motives.

Don't get me the wrong way, but really you can't answer to what happens in game with what ifs, and to what ifs with what happens in games, becomes kind of annoying.
Anyway, the Rannoch Reaper just spews the usual Reaper stuff, "you cannot understand, we are salvation" and whatnot. Believe it or not i went through that stage this afternoon, really, is still fresh.

All i'm trying to say is that Geth weren't a threat to anyone in the galaxy for nearly three centuries (i think in ME people says no one saw them for that long), there's no reason whatsoever to think civilization was in danger.

No, pay attention to how he refrences the quarians.

[Ultrabobo]

Ok, went to see it again, and from a certain perspective you have a point, but here gets funny. Had the Reaper survived literally five more minutes would have changed things? It's the time they needed to make peace between Quarians and Geth. Would have the Reapers called it quits then?

There's still no ground for what happens at the end, at least for me still makes no sense.
It's all Shepard's fault for Killing that thing on Rannoch?

[Iakus]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, pay attention to how he refrences the quarians.

Shepard: Organics and synthetics don't have to destroy each other

Reaper: The battle for Rannoch disproves your assertion

Yeah, so?  The Reaper makes an absolutist statement with no supporting evidence.  Gee, I'm convinced!

[KiwiQuiche]

The game hasn't come out yet, so I'm not gonna put a lot of credit on this review, unless the person pirated a Beta version or something. I figured after seeing Bioware getting smashed after their sh!t end the other companies would learn that "lol giant random plot twist that makes no fcuking sense" is a stupid path to go and aren't retarded enough to do it.

After the good punch in the face I got from ME3 because I was stupid enough to preorder the CE and fall for the lies from Bioware, I'm sure as hell not buying Infinite right off the shelves as soon as it comes out, despite thoroughly enjoying the past two Bioshock games.

[Ultrabobo]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, pay attention to how he refrences the quarians.

Shepard: Organics and synthetics don't have to destroy each other

Reaper: The battle for Rannoch disproves your assertion

Yeah, so?  The Reaper makes an absolutist statement with no supporting evidence.  Gee, I'm convinced!

I think we are seeing another dialogue, Paragon route:

Shepard: I have a better idea. We destroy you and live our lives in peace
Reaper: a philosophy reminiscent of the quarians. Observe the result. We are your only hope for the preservation of humanity.

It make sense in the context, but the context changes 5 minutes later. Doesn't change the result though

[txgoldrush]

Ultrabobo wrote...

Ok, went to see it again, and from a certain perspective you have a point, but here gets funny. Had the Reaper survived literally five more minutes would have changed things? It's the time they needed to make peace between Quarians and Geth. Would have the Reapers called it quits then?

There's still no ground for what happens at the end, at least for me still makes no sense.
It's all Shepard's fault for Killing that thing on Rannoch?

However, imagine Shepard (take into account that he is both organic AND synthetic, and that nature plays a role in the ending...as well as being able to jump into the Geth consensus which is required for peace) was present. What would happen then?

Are the quarians and geth capable of making peace ON THEIR OWN? Key word there...can they ever do it without Shepards intervention?

There is no other evidence that without Shepard, an organic civ can get along with synthetics.

[Ultrabobo]

txgoldrush wrote...

Ultrabobo wrote...

Ok, went to see it again, and from a certain perspective you have a point, but here gets funny. Had the Reaper survived literally five more minutes would have changed things? It's the time they needed to make peace between Quarians and Geth. Would have the Reapers called it quits then?

There's still no ground for what happens at the end, at least for me still makes no sense.
It's all Shepard's fault for Killing that thing on Rannoch?

However, imagine Shepard (take into account that he is both organic AND synthetic, and that nature plays a role in the ending...as well as being able to jump into the Geth consensus which is required for peace) was present. What would happen then?

Are the quarians and geth capable of making peace ON THEIR OWN? Key word there...can they ever do it without Shepards intervention?

There is no other evidence that without Shepard, an organic civ can get along with synthetics.

Maybe. Is possible. Is the Schrödinger's cat, really. Fact is, we don't know.
Not all the Quarians wanted the war, and without the events of previous MEs (Geth resurfacing under Sovereign, Tali's father experiments, and the threat of galactic annihilation) probably the fleet wouldn't have had either the means or the desperation to try the move at the time.
I think it could have gone both ways.
One point i disagree with you is the importance of this dual nature of Shepard. Even fully human he/she would have yelled the war to an end, it's just how he/she rolls.

[Iakus]

txgoldrush wrote...


However, imagine Shepard (take into account that he is both organic AND synthetic, and that nature plays a role in the ending...as well as being able to jump into the Geth consensus which is required for peace) was present. What would happen then?

Are the quarians and geth capable of making peace ON THEIR OWN? Key word there...can they ever do it without Shepards intervention?

There is no other evidence that without Shepard, an organic civ can get along with synthetics.

And there's no evidence that conflict is inevitable as we are working with a sample size of one.  Two if we include the Reapers.

I mean, do the krogan Rebellions prove that organic civilizations will always come into conflict?

[Iakus]

Ultrabobo wrote...

Maybe. Is possible. Is the Schrödinger's cat, really. Fact is, we don't know.
Not all the Quarians wanted the war, and without the events of previous MEs (Geth resurfacing under Sovereign, Tali's father experiments, and the threat of galactic annihilation) probably the fleet wouldn't have had either the means or the desperation to try the move at the time.
I think it could have gone both ways.
One point i disagree with you is the importance of this dual nature of Shepard. Even fully human he/she would have yelled the war to an end, it's just how he/she rolls.

Bolded point important./

What if those quarians won their civil war?  Would the quarians and geth have been able to live in peace?

[txgoldrush]

Ultrabobo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ultrabobo wrote...

Ok, went to see it again, and from a certain perspective you have a point, but here gets funny. Had the Reaper survived literally five more minutes would have changed things? It's the time they needed to make peace between Quarians and Geth. Would have the Reapers called it quits then?

There's still no ground for what happens at the end, at least for me still makes no sense.
It's all Shepard's fault for Killing that thing on Rannoch?

However, imagine Shepard (take into account that he is both organic AND synthetic, and that nature plays a role in the ending...as well as being able to jump into the Geth consensus which is required for peace) was present. What would happen then?

Are the quarians and geth capable of making peace ON THEIR OWN? Key word there...can they ever do it without Shepards intervention?

There is no other evidence that without Shepard, an organic civ can get along with synthetics.

Maybe. Is possible. Is the Schrödinger's cat, really. Fact is, we don't know.
Not all the Quarians wanted the war, and without the events of previous MEs (Geth resurfacing under Sovereign, Tali's father experiments, and the threat of galactic annihilation) probably the fleet wouldn't have had either the means or the desperation to try the move at the time.
I think it could have gone both ways.
One point i disagree with you is the importance of this dual nature of Shepard. Even fully human he/she would have yelled the war to an end, it's just how he/she rolls.

No it cannot....because the Quarians mindset was set against the geth and their society revolved around hostilty to the geth (Shepard says this in the charm version of her argument). Remember that the quarians that did not favor shutting down the geth became the minority and lost out before the Morning War.

Don't forget the Citadel society and their relations with AI...the Citadel archives show their purges. Report Illegal AI signs everywhere. Don't forget the Prothean view.

The dual nature of Shepard is required for synthesis...this is why Catalyst sees you as tthe ideal solution.

[txgoldrush]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


However, imagine Shepard (take into account that he is both organic AND synthetic, and that nature plays a role in the ending...as well as being able to jump into the Geth consensus which is required for peace) was present. What would happen then?

Are the quarians and geth capable of making peace ON THEIR OWN? Key word there...can they ever do it without Shepards intervention?

There is no other evidence that without Shepard, an organic civ can get along with synthetics.

And there's no evidence that conflict is inevitable as we are working with a sample size of one.  Two if we include the Reapers.

I mean, do the krogan Rebellions prove that organic civilizations will always come into conflict?

The Catalyst was working with a sample size of many....so was the Leviathan. There is the evidence.

Don't forget the Citadel policy on AIs.

[Iakus]

txgoldrush wrote...

The Catalyst was working with a sample size of many....so was the Leviathan. There is the evidence.

Don't forget the Citadel policy on AIs.

I see no evidence.  All I see are assertions.

As a math teacher might say, you need to show your work.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Shepard is not synthetic. That was a crap line thrown into destroy to make them less likely to pick it (since, **** it, if Shepard's going to die no matter what, you might as well pick synthesis, right?)

He has upgrades that are synthetic in nature, but he's not a synthetic. Syntax. Synthetic skin does not mean synthetic life.

Star Jar is referring to Artificial Intelligence. It's kind of hard to be an organic AI. Impossible, even.

[Ultrabobo]

Agree to disagree? We could go on for a lot more, and your opinion is as good as mine.
I don't think Geth/Quarian wars, few rogue AIs and the likes of it are enough of a reason for what the Catalyst says at the end, but is how I see it. There wasn't a civilization on the verge of extintion, not by a long shot, and all the stuff Shepard does during ME3 expecially just adds to how meaningless the whole drill is.
Now, maybe without the Reapers destroying everything no one would have cured the genophage, or made peace between Quarians and Geth, that i concede, but it happened. Should be Worth something.
And maybe i don't consider the dual nature important because for me the only possible ending is destroy, saw them all but the mission was destroy the Reapers and so it should end for me. I have my narrow points as anyone.


PS: i want to apologize for derailing the thread so much, wasn't my intention, sorry.

[Iakus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Shepard is not synthetic. That was a crap line thrown into destroy to make them less likely to pick it (since, **** it, if Shepard's going to die no matter what, you might as well pick synthesis, right?)

He has upgrades that are synthetic in nature, but he's not a synthetic. Syntax. Synthetic skin does not mean synthetic life.

Star Jar is referring to Artificial Intelligence. It's kind of hard to be an organic AI. Impossible, even.

Not to mention EDI specifically says that although Shepard was extensively rebuilt by Cerberus, his/her mind is totally untouched.  Shepard is fully human, just with cybernetic implants.

[txgoldrush]

iakus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Shepard is not synthetic. That was a crap line thrown into destroy to make them less likely to pick it (since, **** it, if Shepard's going to die no matter what, you might as well pick synthesis, right?)

He has upgrades that are synthetic in nature, but he's not a synthetic. Syntax. Synthetic skin does not mean synthetic life.

Star Jar is referring to Artificial Intelligence. It's kind of hard to be an organic AI. Impossible, even.

Not to mention EDI specifically says that although Shepard was extensively rebuilt by Cerberus, his/her mind is totally untouched.  Shepard is fully human, just with cybernetic implants.

However those synthetics inside Shepard were key in getting to David in Overlord and getting into the Geth Consensus...so his or her synthetics do matter.

[txgoldrush]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The Catalyst was working with a sample size of many....so was the Leviathan. There is the evidence.

Don't forget the Citadel policy on AIs.

I see no evidence.  All I see are assertions.

As a math teacher might say, you need to show your work.

Nope....they have evidence, thats why the Leviathan and the Catalyst did or do what they did or do. If organics weren't falling to their own creations, Leviathans wouldn't create the Catalyst.

Simply put....trying to say the geth/quarian peace disproves the Catalyst assertion, a peace forged on threats of annihilation by the mediator, simply does not fly. Its not proof against him in any way because they never found peace THEMSELVES.

[Iakus]

txgoldrush wrote...


Nope....they have evidence, thats why the Leviathan and the Catalyst did or do what they did or do. If organics weren't falling to their own creations, Leviathans wouldn't create the Catalyst.

Simply put....trying to say the geth/quarian peace disproves the Catalyst assertion, a peace forged on threats of annihilation by the mediator, simply does not fly. Its not proof against him in any way because they never found peace THEMSELVES.

If they have evidence, it's Secret Knowledge, as tehy didn't share any of it with Shepard or the player.  Sorry, but "Trust me, it's true" doesn't work on me.  Especially when it comes from genocidal space-Cthulhus

The battle on Rannoch only shows me that conflic is possible, noth that it's inevitable.  If I were so credulous I'd be convinced that confict between the krogan and salarians was inevitable too.  Or that the rachni will inevitably invade again.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Ultrabobo wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

When has anyone ever rebelled because they thought they were superior to their oppressors? Usually it's becasue their current ruling body mistreats them that they decide to rebel in the first place.

I'm guessing Terminator and Matrix. Hal9000?

Iran, Russia, Mexico, United States of America, The hundreds of small nations that have risen and fallen throghout the millenia, pretty much every nation has had a rebellion of one kind or another.

Because in all honesty, the only difference between a rebellion and a revolution is which side get's to tell the story. I can garuntee you if britian had won against the colonies back in the 1700's, that war would not be called "the revolutionary war", more than likely it would be the "colonial rebellion of 1776" or something like that.

[txgoldrush]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Nope....they have evidence, thats why the Leviathan and the Catalyst did or do what they did or do. If organics weren't falling to their own creations, Leviathans wouldn't create the Catalyst.

Simply put....trying to say the geth/quarian peace disproves the Catalyst assertion, a peace forged on threats of annihilation by the mediator, simply does not fly. Its not proof against him in any way because they never found peace THEMSELVES.

If they have evidence, it's Secret Knowledge, as tehy didn't share any of it with Shepard or the player.  Sorry, but "Trust me, it's true" doesn't work on me.  Especially when it comes from genocidal space-Cthulhus

The battle on Rannoch only shows me that conflic is possible, noth that it's inevitable.  If I were so credulous I'd be convinced that confict between the krogan and salarians was inevitable too.  Or that the rachni will inevitably invade again.

The conflict withthe Krogan was different from the Morning War.

In the Krogan Rebellion...the Krogan were deemed "no longer useful" and have "served their purpose". Conflict arose because they were written off.

The Morning War storyline however, the Quarians seek the aniihilation or enslavement of the geth. They seek to take control back. Their tech that they made.

Its the notion of this loss of control that makes this, the organic/synthetic conflict inevitable in a special way, and one in the end could mean annihilation of organics due to them being surpassed.

For the Krogan, they could have given them what they wanted and conflict would have been averted.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 23 mars 2013 - 06:28 .

[RaenImrahl]

Discuss BioShock: I in the off-topic forum, please.