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Getting ready to rebuild from NWN1 - what to expect?


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#1
Jeddia

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Decided that I'd get NWN2 and rebuild my persistent world from NWN1.  Ordered the Platinum edition and should get it in a few days.  I've been skimming/searching the resource stickies and various threads in each forum section to prepare, but there are a few things I haven't seen mentioned - and at this point, thanks to the game being several years old, there are almost no official sites to use for information.  I was suprised to see actual 404 errors on several URL's.  So anyway...

1).  With the added load of walkmesh and whatever else comes with NWN2's features, what - if any - problems have builders run into with larger module sizes?  My NWN1 module was around 150mb, with around 400 areas that were mostly large exteriors, and lots of placeables.  Near the end, I started seeing inexplicable issues that I could only guess was due to bloat.  Does anyone have an idea of a "cap" on module size?

2).  I have seen no mention of a player-made tradeskill system, ala UOAbigail's system from NWN1.  I'd like to use something like that, any suggestions?  Or is the ingame stock tradeskill system worth using?

3).  I was heavy into scripting for my old module, what kinds of weirdness can I expect to run into from importing old scripts into the new module?  I've read that about 10% of old functions don't work in NWN2, is there a list of those?  I noticed a sticky with a list of broken functions, are those all still broken as of the final patch?

Just trying to get an idea of how much work I have ahead of me.  Thanks for any replies.  Image IPB

Jeddia
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#2
kevL

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10% sounds bout right, though it's probably a bit less.

Tag-based scripting defaults to a new system (the old one is still there but the new one is quite neat). This really screwed me up at first.

I think the biggest thing you have to deal with is the fact of Companions. Very glorified henchmen that have nearly the status of PC's.

GetIsPC() no longer means GetIsPlayerCharacter. Think of it as GetIsPlayerControlled -- this can be a lowly familiar, eg. There is a new entity called the Roster; companions are stored here by their RosterNames (not necessarily the same as names or tags), but I gather MP-PWs don't use companions much at all.


I believe in multi-player ( i can't test multiplayer ) that all PCs belong to the same faction no matter how or if they're grouped. ( and Personal Reputation tends to get deprecated, at least by me, in favor of global reputations. PR screws with companions so they don't attack, I've found, so if Global Reputation is turned on under Campaign properties or in the moduleLoad scripts ... then it doesn't seem to matter if PR is left on locally for each faction or not )


Probably the biggest time-sink to a conversion is dealing with fancier tools for outdoors areas. It's an artform in itself. Regarding placeables, the limits are probably several tads more restrictive than NwN1. But as many as possible can be turned into Environmental Objects then cut out with walkmesh cutters, to keep the truly interactive placeables to a minimum,


oh, and get Skywing's AdvancedScriptCompiler asap. :)

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#3
ColorsFade

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 The biggest hurdle is going to be converting all those outdoor areas, because it's a totally different way of creating an area. If you have to do all of them from scratch, that's a heap of work. 
For indoor areas, there is a converter someone wrote (I have no idea how good it is). 

#4
Lugaid of the Red Stripes

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More than a time sink, I think the exterior areas might demand an entire change in design philosophy. NWN exteriors tend to make up for their graph-paper squareness by being huge, you really needed 20x20 tiles to convey the character of a landscape, or you needed the sheer scope of the area to compensate for its uniformity.

NWN2 areas, in contrast, end up being smaller but intricately detailed. I like to think of them as more like Chinese gardens - miniature representations of landscapes, rather than realistically large landscapes themselves. So you don't create the whole forest, you just create enough forest to give the player a taste of what it feels like to be in a forest.

Things tend to work best when you can keep them intimate, where every exterior area really has its own personality. This approach tends to change exteriors from drawn-out dungeon crawls to more focused encounters, though, and you need to build your plot around that.

You might also want to think about the overland map system, and how you could use that to cut down on the size of some of your exteriors, or eliminate them altogether.

#5
Morbane

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play some of the community modules - maybe some of the HOF ones or ones that are described to be like what your going for.

#6
rjshae

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Jeddia wrote...

1).  With the added load of walkmesh and whatever else comes with NWN2's features, what - if any - problems have builders run into with larger module sizes?  My NWN1 module was around 150mb, with around 400 areas that were mostly large exteriors, and lots of placeables.  Near the end, I started seeing inexplicable issues that I could only guess was due to bloat.  Does anyone have an idea of a "cap" on module size?.


For me, one of the biggest caps on building large areas is the time it takes to perform a bake. My current overland map is pretty large and it can take quite a few minutes for the bake to finish. This becomes a significant obstacle when a grid square gets locked during the bake and I have to perform several edit cycles to fix the problem.

Large maps can be difficult for another reason -- the cap on the number of textures that can be applied in each grid square. When you have a variety of different terrain types on an exterior area, choosing the right mix of texture types can become a challenge--partticularly in trying to get a nice flow along the edges of grid squares with different texture mixes. It's usually better to work with a smaller map and use only one or two terrain types so that you can do some nice texture blending.

Finally, grass can add quite a lot of data size to an area file, and grass is something that enhances the terrain so it's nice to have plenty of it.

In short, my put is that the advice above is good: it's usually better to mix small-to-medium-sized exterior areas with an overland map. Building even a small map can take a fair amount of effort. You might want to try a few first before tackling a larger area.

My $.02 worth. :)

Modifié par rjshae, 27 mars 2013 - 07:18 .


#7
painofdungeoneternal

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I've seen PW admins fall flat on their faces due to their ideals, and the thought that bigger areas and more of them is always a good thing, tends to be a sign of a PW which is going to have trouble launching.

It's a basic computer problem, everything added has a cost and when it gets too expensive you run into issues. If you spend your resources on area size, you cannot also have lots of grass, shadows, placeables, triggers and scripts, and have thousands of areas at the same time all doing the same thing. It is impossible for me to say you can't do this or that, since even i break ALL the rules, but i know enough so I can compensate for pushing things in one way, by pulling somewhere else, even then there are limits which affect performance.

There are no restrictions on what you can do with the toolset, or ones that are actually a bit ridiculous, but that does not mean it is wise to do everything, or that you won't find problems when you push the limits of the engine. Initially you want to get the PW up and not discover what you have does not work ( and I've dealt with far too many PW admins who have run into this ). Hopefully you push edges to support something unique, and not just shoot for a quantity which makes it sound like your world has more. You also should be a bit theatrical with your areas, using smaller areas which are designed much like theatre sets to give the impression of vastness. It's not actual quantities that you can measure, as you can have the max sized area feel small, or make a player feel that a much smaller area is actual vast in size.

Less is more, what is the minimum needed to get your vision, your point across and make the player get the right feel. The big successful PW's are ruthless in focusing on performance, thinking thru every shadow, every tree, even how simple the walkmesh is. They tend to do more interiors than exteriors as well, since they have a lot less overhead to be used ( one pw admin said they do 4 interiors for every exterior ). Everything in NWN1 is an interior, so it's just hard to compare things, and exteriors use up a lot of your systems memory ( and 32 bit apps have limits in the OS which is discussed elsewhere ).

Scripting is the same, the core script functions are different though, but quite a bit can still be used, especially if your scripts are entirely custom. There are removed features, with script functions still present, so scripts that deal with model parts in NWN1 cannot work for example.

You can convert NWN1 module interiors to NWN2 exteriors via a vault plugin, does not do everything, but copies over the tiles so you can then recreate them.

Start small, 5-6 areas and get a player or two on to test your areas as you add - call it unofficial and pre-release, but get it up and being used so you can get feedback, and so as you add things you can see how they affect performance. This way if you start pushing things too hard, you see it happening and don't learn this after you've done 200 perfect areas and only realize it's an issue until after you decide to launch.

Get all the plugins provided by skywing for NWNx, xp_bugfix, the script compiler he has as well as the plugin that lets it replace the default scripting, networking, etc.

Listen to other PW admins, and if something is critical for you design ( ie you want 500 ants in an area ), discuss and ask how to accomplish this in a way that won't break your PW. ( the sticky for the irc channel is a good place to hang out as well )

#8
Jeddia

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Thanks for all the replies. Helpful stuff. I've already realized that trying to rebuild my NWN1 persistent world note-for-note would be insane. So now I'm doing some math to see where the compromises are going to come from.

From what I can tell so far, just about all my custom scripts should be completely functional in NWN2 - even the more crazy ones. I truly wish there was a way to just .erf all my old custom creatures into the new toolset, but alas... Speaking of which, is it just me or are there not very many creature blueprints in the new toolset? Perhaps I'm just used to the massive list in the old one due to CEP and my own creations. *shrug*

Much to my dismay though, after installing NWN2 and Direct X 9.0c, my Win7 system is randomly freezing... So before I dig further into the toolset, I gotta figure out if it's truly just a coincidence and there's a hardware issue, or if something has gone wrong software-wise.

#9
MokahTGS

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 Has any serious work been done to make the SoZ overland map function in MP?  A lot of NWN1 PWs used tons of outdoor areas to convey scope and size and that can be done in NWN2 with both the overland and world maps.

NWN2 works better with smaller more focused areas, and Pain is right when he says start small.  The NWN games are similar but the differences are significant and a PW design should reflect this.

#10
Morbane

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Jeddia wrote...

Much to my dismay though, after installing NWN2 and Direct X 9.0c, my Win7 system is randomly freezing... So before I dig further into the toolset, I gotta figure out if it's truly just a coincidence and there's a hardware issue, or if something has gone wrong software-wise.


one big issue can be the graphics card rather than the system - sometimes rolling back to certain older drivers can help, as certain updates glitch NWN2 & the TS

there are stickies for win7 issues as well

:whistle:

Modifié par Morbane, 28 mars 2013 - 08:54 .


#11
Tchos

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Jeddia -- for creature blueprints, I recommend extracting the ones from the OC and the expansions that aren't a part of the default toolset. Also, there are two large collections of creature blueprints on the Vault (Wild Bill's and Krondorl's) which provide the monster/NPC stats and abilities as blueprints, with (in some cases) placeholder appearances like resized/tinted humans, or appearances set to those custom creatures which you'll need to download separately. Just open up those blueprints in the toolset and browse through the list and see how many and varied they are, and go from there.