309 réponses à ce sujet

[LucidlyInsane]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...

The men are buff and muscled, yet the women are thin to the point of looking weak and scrawny. Kinda weird when they are supposed to be the most lethal of ass-kickers respectively.

... (snip)

(Yes, they are naked so you can see the comparison better lol)

Very true. Though I also find myself a little disturbed by the difference between m!Hawke's practical pantaloon contraption and f!Hawke's push-up bra and little knickers. It... bothers me, to say the least, and is part of the same mindset that means we get the troubling difference between male and famale avatars. 

... her arms were so noodly compared to ManHawke it was almost hilarious.

This was something I, too, noticed.

The most recent Bioware game ME3, has the Shepard comparisions which got even worse;
 
(snip to avoid picspam)

I mean really. Shepard is a freaking marine, one of the best fighters in the galaxy. Sheploo really looks like he can throw a punch, but Femshep looks like she would have trouble just keeping a pistol level. This gets even more strange (and in my case immersion breaking) if you decide to brawl James.

The utter contrast in their muscle tone is hilarious and kinda disturbing. Femshep looks pathetically weak next to James, certainly not a physcial powerhouse she's supposed to be, especially if you are a Vanguard or Soldier class, who deal with brute strength.

Also, that armour cannot be light, neither can all those guns she lugs about. And before I get "Waaah Cerberus implants" yeah no, that is not a good excuse, as she looked like scrawny ten-year-old even in ME1, it just got way more noticable as the seires progressed.

This was actually one of the main reasons I ended up playing male Shepard, even though I'm female, through the series (there were role-playing reasons, too, but that's another story). I refused to play as a soldier who had a supermodel-thin physique. Fem!Shep, while I love the character to pieces, is someone I have trouble playing as, due to the fact that she doesn't look physically capable of the tasks the story requires her to do. It's such an immersion-breaker that it actually gets in the way of my enjoyment of the ME series.

She also has a little too much breast tissue and hip width for someone who should have muscle definition and be engaging in regular, harsh physical activity. While female athletes still look female, they certainly don't have the same physique as the average underwear model.

(Yes, I say this as someone who can play the Tomb Raider games without outright laughing at Lara's frame, but there's a clear difference - she was an openly sexualised heroine from the start, something you kind of have to accept as you play the games, whereas I really hoped that femShep wouldn't be. With BioWare's pretty excellent track record, and after seeing her equality with m!Shep in so many other areas, the fact that she's been made to fit ordinary Western standards of beauty is jarring. You could say the same of m!Shep, actually, but the construction there still alows the character to look like he could actually do his job.)

Edited to add:

Captain Crash wrote...

A body slider in the Character Creator could help a great deal with this. I know people who are on either end of this opinion and not everyone wants the same thing.

Not sure how easy it would be to implement and if Bioware wants to go down this route but I think this would satisfy a great many people who do have an issue.

I hugely agree with this. It would be a good compromise, and allow everyone to have a character that they were happy with.

Modifié par LucidlyInsane, 25 mars 2013 - 04:29 .

[lady_v23]

Just make choice of body builds to choose from.  Not the end of the world.  Besides.. this is a video game, lady hawke being a stick figure while annoying, doesn't make me cry. 

Honestly! both Shepards look ridiculous sparring with James.  Is not like male shepard could take him:lol:.  You don't fight a tank of man head on, that would be suicide.   You go for the knee..

[BeatoSama]

KainD wrote...

BeatoSama wrote...

This is a problem with male characters too but to a lesser extent.

No, we all still have different tastes. As a male I for one get to play a male character that I consider to be good looking very, VERY rarely. The only recent bioware game that allowed me that was DA:O, and only an elf. 

What I meant was the availability of important characters who aren't conventionally attractive. Not being able to create a character that fits your personal beauty standard.  Which is much worse with female characters. There's tons of cool old guys in movies but too few old women. And an overweight female character in a major role in anything is very rare.

Modifié par BeatoSama, 25 mars 2013 - 05:01 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

LudiclyInsane wrote...
She also has a little too much breast tissue and hip width for someone who should have muscle definition and be engaging in regular, harsh physical activity. While female athletes still look female, they certainly don't have the same physique as the average underwear model.

...let me point out a third time that the activities a solider does do not give you an olympians body. Just look at female marines. Many of them have wide hips and rather large breasts.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Strawman-a person used as a cover for some questionable activity.
So yeah, when was I doing that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[DreGregoire]

I've been in here before, but I just have to say the shape of the females in the games is unappealing to me as a player. The size of the wrists and hands to me, especially in the Mass Effect series where I was unable to hide them in bulky gloves, was very jarring. The arms tend to be too small for me to feel like I could do the things I am doing. To me Shepard body looks like she is a medium heighted sized shape stretched to fit into a six foot tall plus body, with arms that didn't go through a change. The changes in ME3 to intimate female Shepard were actually a bit embarrasing to me.

Female Hawke's shape isn't horrible but she certainly, imo, needs a little more bulk to be a warrior versus a mage.

I don't want to get into the arguments about shape versus work load and all but instead will just attempt to say things in regards to me. I have always been more physically capable than most women, without trying, so for me the shape of female Shepard is very jarring, especially considering female Shepard's age. Female Hawke is less so because she is supposedly a good five years or so younger than Shepard, in the beginning (I won't even get into the lack of change in 10 years for Hawke), yet female Hawke isn't supposed to be as tall as Shepard, so her form works because she isn't as stretched. Even so I don't feel that I want to play as female Hawke. I actually liked playing as the female Warden better than the female Hawke because I could hide behind armor and make myself believe she didn't look like she did.

And since somebody mentioned it I hated the underclothes in DA2 for the females. I certainly was not weariing anything like that under my dress or armor. LOL!

I would be satisfied with the choice of three shapes, non class specific, if a slider is not possible.

Added: And as an aside I am not shaped like any of the women shown in the pics in this thread.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 mars 2013 - 05:57 .

[grumpymooselion]

BeatoSama wrote...

I don't think asking for a less skinny main character is bad because there are hundreds of skinny female characters available already. How many games (and movies) have you seen that features important non-conventionally attractive female characters?
If we only get one body type I would therefore want something more muscular (or even better a fat character but most people will sadly not get behind that) because women come in all sizes and shapes not just one.

This is a problem with male characters too but to a lesser extent.

It's not to a lesser extent.  Yeah, some of you are going to disagree.

-

Here's the thing though, it actually is to the same extent, maybe even a greater extent. You see while female character do get shoehorned into a particular body type quite often, they actually have a decent lobby from different groups trying to fix that. They often have their words fall of deaf ears, but the words are, actually, there.

See with male leads you have the exact opposite problem. Rather than for requests of, "Let's not do this yet again" you instead have countless tons of, "Yeah that was awesome, that guy was so manly, muscular and rugged! That's awesome! I'm cool right? Right? I'm a bro? Right? Is everyone convinced I'm a mature straight man yet? I drink beer too!  Should I smash some beer cans against my forehead? Maybe scream football at the top of my lungs? I love call of duty and all that! I don't play female characters because it makes me uncomfortable unless it's to look at their butts! Please accept me!"

Ahem.

Personally I find male leads in most major games as far from relatable, and as far from a look I would enjoy, choose or be impressed by as possible. The increasing insistence that male looks be extremely masculine, rugged, muscular or all of the above is not only overdone, it borders on levels of insecurity that are truly startling. Any alternatives are instantly associated with things that, again, hook into that same insecurity with scream that, 'so you just want anime characters' or 'I don't want to look like a girl' or "final fantasy sucks' or 'oh look another WoW clone (as if any and everything stylized or colorful looks like WoW)' and more (as if these were the only alternatives), with some schmuck inevitably dropping the G word (unless you're in a moderated environment where they kick that sort of thing out, thankfully). Without the moderator presence you'll either be very suprised, or not surprised at all, how quickly that word crescendos out of control into a mass of hystic homophobia that manages to be utterly terrifying and . . . really sad all at once.

As much as we can acknowledge that, yeah, not every female character, or female main character, doesn't need to look like a supermodel . . . there's almost an absolute reversal on how males should look in games these days. There are some exceptions (there are exceptions when it comes to female characters too) but the difference really isn't that there's less of an issue when it comes to male characters. It's that there's a massively different perception, cause and result of the issue at a base.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 25 mars 2013 - 06:53 .

[Ghost43]

Just want to voice my support of female heros looking more atheletic. FemHawke and ME2 Shepard, in the dress, are not that far off, but the arms and shoulders could stand to be a bit larger.

The problem is usually that they share a body type with the generic NPC's. Also, wouldn't mind making male heros who don't look like Bulk McLarge. Come on Bioware, I know you can do it! We're not asking for different heights! Just let us have a few different frames.

Some of the attitudes in this thread make me sad.

[LucidlyInsane]

Ghost43 wrote...

 Also, wouldn't mind making male heros who don't look like Bulk McLarge. Come on Bioware, I know you can do it! We're not asking for different heights! Just let us have a few different frames.

Some of the attitudes in this thread make me sad.

Edited for typos.

Oh, I understand and agree with that. I'd quite like to play a muscular woman warrior with no makeup... but I'd also rather like to play a lanky male mage with plenty of makeup. If you see my point.

All in an all, I'm not advocating one particular "look" for the PCs, I'd just like a range of options.

Modifié par LucidlyInsane, 25 mars 2013 - 08:27 .

[Ghost43]

Yes. BowieHawke for the win.

Perhaps we'll see cha-cha-changes?


I'm sorry.

[JorieSilver]

Janan Pacha wrote...

There should be no demand that a main character be skinny. There should be no demand that a main character be fat. There should be no demand that a main character be average. There should be no demand that a main character be slender. There should be no demand that a main character be curvy. There should be no demand that a main character be toned/athletic. There should be no demand that a main character be strong but husky. There should be no demand that a main character be muscular. There should be no demand that a main character be extremely muscular. There should be no demand that a main character have flat breasts, small breasts, average breasts, large breasts or otherwise. There should be no demand that a main character have nearly no bulge, a small bulge, an average bulge, a large bulge or otherwise.

The only thing asked, should ever be, "Please, may we have more customization of the main character's various features and aesthetics, including, but not limited to; their body type, body features, skin tone, eye color, hair color, hair style, hair length, height, facial features and so on and so forth." And it should never be asked of just one gender, but BOTH genders.

I played SWTOR for a few months: there were four options for models for each gender. Men got short and skinny, medium height and medium musles, tall with giant muscles, and fat. Women got tiny frame with large breasts, average height and thin with large breasts, tall and muscled with large breasts, and medium height and curvy with EVEN BIGGER BREASTS. 

See why we're not *just* asking for body customization? See why we're focusing on female bodies?  Because the female options were all still sexualized, and the male options *were not*.

Because when it comes down to it, video game models of both genders are still generally designed by and for men. 

In this instance, all we're asking for is the same consideration that male players get: to have a character model that is designed for us to imagine ourselves in, rather than one designed for the opposite gender to fantasize about screwing.

[RandomSyhn]

Ghost43 wrote...

Yes. BowieHawke for the win.

Perhaps we'll see cha-cha-changes?


I'm sorry.

BowieHawke could be a mage!

Dance Magic Dance!

Ahem...

I agree the slider would probably best solution for this, that also comes with the issue that you'd now have to adjusta ll the armour so it can fit that slider as well. As far as practicality goes I guess I'll let the devs decide on that.

[grumpymooselion]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

I played SWTOR for a few months: there were four options for models for each gender. Men got short and skinny, medium height and medium musles, tall with giant muscles, and fat. Women got tiny frame with large breasts, average height and thin with large breasts, tall and muscled with large breasts, and medium height and curvy with EVEN BIGGER BREASTS. 

See why we're not *just* asking for body customization? See why we're focusing on female bodies?  Because the female options were all still sexualized, and the male options *were not*.

In this instance, all we're asking for is the same consideration that male players get: to have a character model that is designed for us to imagine ourselves in, rather than one designed for the opposite gender to fantasize about screwing.

No, you're asking for something for just the female models. That's it. Instead asking for something for everyone - including all, excluding none - asking for the equality that needs to be there, and should have always been there. The customization options in SWTOR - for either gender - are not good. Not for the males or females. It's a terrible example.

Ask for customization, good customization, all around the board. Not for one static to be replaced by another static, as if asking that isn't asking for the exact situation with new people pleased and new people left out. That's no better, it's just as bad, and, possibly worse because you should know better because you should know how that feels.

Customization. For, for both genders - for everyone. No exceptions. Many options, of all sorts, for both genders. Skinny. Slender. Curvy. Average. Athletic. Husky. Husky but strong. Fat. Muscular. Eveyrhting, For both. Don't want to have large breasts? Ask for extra options to allow from a range of sized from the smallest AA cup sized all the way up the, what I think, are the stupidly large (SWTOR had these). All those options, and more. Then turn around and say, very simply - for the other gender too. Both genders. Lots of customization. Inclusive options rather than statics that exclude by design.

[KiwiQuiche]

HAG1686 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

HAG1686 wrote...

I agree with the general sentiment of
this thread (more customization in how our characters look). However,
did you really need to be so insulting, OP? I know plenty of women who
look like FHawke, myself included, who have no trouble "lifting a
cardboard box." Smaller women and bigger women all put on muscle
differently, and their looks often don't indicate their actual, physical
strength. So, yes, I would really like to customize exactly how my
character's body looks, as per my own headcanon of what's appropriate,
but maybe we shouldn't go around invalidating other body types as
"unrealistic."

Oh really? Yes, how dare I say that a pair of women who spend years fighting opponents in heavy armour and weilding numerous weapons, sometimes massive shotguns and swords, have the muscle-mass of civilians.

And when did I say Hawke/Shepard's body type was 'unrealistic' in everyday life? It's unrealistic because these two women have been fighting for years yet they remain thin with small muscles. And unless you and your friends go around fighting Reapers and Templars in armour, then you comparing yourself and friends to Shepard and Hawke is 'unrealistic'

My point was that someone's size does not necessarily reflect their strength. If you believe that only a larger woman with well-defined muscles is an accurate depiction of a warrior/rogue in DA's setting, then I fully support you having access to that option, because I think we should all be able to make the characters we want.

However, you can make that point without being insulting. Saying that those body models are "scrawny", having "noodle" arms, or have trouble "lifting a cardboard box" is just as nonhelpful to the discussion as the people saying the women with bigger muscles are ugly or mannish or impossible to achieve without steroids. It's body shaming on both ends of the spectrum, and it's unnecessary.

Myself and the women I know aside, is there really any RL comparison to what Hawke does? Is it modern military? Triathletes? MMA fighters? Olympic athletes? Crossfitters? It seems we all have our own ideas, and it would be nice if DA allowed a slider or several options to incorporate those ideas.

But she does have scrawny and noodle arms, that is my entire point.

I agree with the slider. Those who want curvy models can get them. Those who want muscular ladies can get them as well.

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Strawman-a person used as a cover for some questionable activity.
So yeah, when was I doing that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Dude, wikipedia is not a valid source. Didn't you learn not to use information from that in school?


Janan, go make a customization thread then.

[JorieSilver]

Janan Pacha wrote...

No, you're asking for something for just the female models. That's it. Instead asking for something for everyone - including all, excluding none - asking for the equality that needs to be there, and should have always been there. The customization options in SWTOR - for either gender - are not good. Not for the males or females. It's a terrible example.

Ask for customization, good customization, all around the board. Not for one static to be replaced by another static, as if asking that isn't asking for the exact situation with new people pleased and new people left out. That's no better, it's just as bad, and, possibly worse because you should know better because you should know how that feels.

Customization. For, for both genders - for everyone. No exceptions. Many options, of all sorts, for both genders. Skinny. Slender. Curvy. Average. Athletic. Husky. Husky but strong. Fat. Muscular. Eveyrhting, For both. Don't want to have large breasts? Ask for extra options to allow from a range of sized from the smallest AA cup sized all the way up the, what I think, are the stupidly large (SWTOR had these). All those options, and more. Then turn around and say, very simply - for the other gender too. Both genders. Lots of customization. Inclusive options rather than statics that exclude by design.

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that things are not currently equal. I'm only asking for what male players already have. I'm all for improving everyone's experience, but first the women have to catch up to where the men already are, which is with character models that were designed with them in mind. 

Right now, we're stuck with models that were designed to look sexy for male players, not to make female players feel strong. 

It would be awesome if we could all personalize our characters to that extent, so that every individual could have a character that looked exactly how they wanted. That would be awesome. I'm not a game developer--however, I imagine such a task would be incredibly costly or more people would do it. 

Realistically, all humans in DA:I are going to have one of two body shapes: male or female. They'll be copy/pasted for each and every PC, party member, and random NPC hanging out on the street repeating the same seven words over and over again every time you click them. All we're asking is that the female body shape be designed for women to feel powerful and not for men to ogle. Because that's what men already have.

One problem at a time. I like customization options, too. In a perfect world, where men and women were already equal in the gaming-verse, I wouldn't have to make the distinction. But it's not perfect, so I'm going to keep making the distinction until the situation gets better.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 26 mars 2013 - 01:12 .

[grumpymooselion]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that things are not currently equal.

What you're refusing to understand is that asking for one sided additions doesn't result in equality, and that doing to others exactly what was done to you (replacing one static with another) to make yourself happy doesn't result in anything but 'the same exact issue all over again'. As if it's any different than asking that the character be skinny or slender or curvy.

Only a grant of actual customization, lots of it, with options across both genders for many persons addressing multiple tastes will get you equality. You're not asking for equality. You're not asking for a good thing. You're not righting a wrong. You're asking for inequality of a new kind, instead of 'you' bein unhappy with one body type you want 'other people' to be unhappy with a different body type (replacing one static with another).

I'm all for improving everyone's experience,

Then ask for things that will actually do that.

Right now, we're stuck with models that were designed to look sexy for male players, not to make female players feel strong.

You seem to be under the impression that all male (and female) players are happy with the Male model as it currently exists, something I've already addressed thoroughly. It's almost as if there are people that have issue with both models. Why is your issue more important exactly? It's not. No, the people with issue with the male character aren't more important either. People that think either of the issues are important, and want solutions to those issues that exclude people are selfish. You're being selfish. You are only asking that one static be replaced with another. You see one group is happy now, but you're unhappy, and you want to be made happy at the price of another group being made unhappy. It's not good. It's not right. It's not equal. It's selfish. It's wrong. It's doing the 'exact' same thing to others that has been done to you. And you know how that feels so you should bloody well know better.

It would be awesome if we could all personalize our characters to that extent, so that every individual could have a character that looked exactly how they wanted. That would be awesome.

Yes, it would.

 

I'm not a game developer--however, I imagine such a task would be incredibly costly or more people would do it.

And yet, it is done, and in more than a handful of games that mysteriously haven't sacrificed quality even though a few of them 'are not' top from grade studious supported by some of the largest publishers. It's almost like the people working on the writing and gameplay mechanics aren't the same people that would be working on the character customization.

Realistically, all humans in DA:I are going to have one of two body shapes: male or female. They'll be copy/pasted for each and every PC, party member, and random NPC hanging out on the street repeating the same seven words over and over again every time you click them. All we're asking is that the female body shape be designed for women to feel powerful and not for men to ogle. Because that's what men already have.

As if the only people that like the old female body type are men. As if the only people that hate the old female body type are women. As if neither men nor women like or dislike the male body type we're always stuck with.

Ask for something that will actually solve the problem, rather than creating the exact same problem all over again - just like the current body type - it shuts entire groups of people out, and entire character concepts out. It excludes multiples, just like the current body type excludes multiples. These are non-inclusive solutions.

Ask for something that will actually include as many people as possible, rather than exclude everyone except you and the people that share your opinion. It's selfish. it's wrong. Asking that other people be put in the same position you are 'now' doesn't solve anything, it's just a spiteful, 'well I had to deal with it, so now they have to deal with it too to make it right, to make it equal.' Except it doesn't make it equal. No solution like that makes things equal. It just creates another version of inequality.

Ask for something inclusive to as many people as possible. As for customization options, good customization options of significant variety, for both genders. As few people left out as possible. As many people as possible included.

One problem at a time. I like customization options, too.

Then ask for them, in detail. Otherwise it's just hollow an empty, "I would but doing something just for me and people that share my viewpoint is so much easier.' Nevermind that, just like the last body type, it screws over anyone that doesn't like the new body type.

In a perfect world, where men and women were already equal in the gaming-verse, I wouldn't have to make the distinction. But it's not perfect, so I'm going to keep making the distinction until the situation gets better.

The distinctions made on all sides further aggravate, resulting in further inequality in various forms ping ponging between both sides ad nauseum ad infinitum. The solution to inequality is never new forms of inequality. It's actual equality. Actual equality doesn't mean, "I get what I want and other people don't" and no amount of 'the female is not muscular' will make things equal, it will only be the same problem all over again, where new people are excluded - and no, they won't just be the only that want slender skinny and curvy body types. They'll be all brands of people with all brands of ideas and tastes. It won't just be the ones that want the thing you don't want.

Equality in this case means customization where we all get the options we want, and deal with the options we don't like also being present in addition to that, for both genders.

God knows I've never once, in all my years of gaming, not even once - I repeat, not even once -  have I gotten to play as, or create a male character that I actually liked the look of. It'd be nice to, for once, actually have that option. Just once. But I won't ask for it at the expense of 'everyone' else that likes the current male body type. Instead I ask for 'customization' that still allows them the options they like, that still allows many options I'd never take - in addition to those I would. Customization options for both genders, and enough of them to be as inclusive as realistically possible . . . that's what I ask instead. Not just for me. Not self serving. But for as many people as possible - and you're included in that.

I want you to be able to make the female character to your preference, but not at the cost of everyone else, just like I don't want to make the character 'I'd prefer' at the cost of everyone else.

I want to include as many people as possible in creating the characters they want, and exclude as few as possible. Customization across both genders allowing for a variety of body types, features and coloring results in this. Replacing one static with another does not. It never will. It just excludes a different set of people. It's the same problem all over again. It's not a solution - it's a never ending cycle.

[AshenShug4r]

Volus Warlord wrote...



Creatine, blood doping, ........

Creatine is naturally occuring, how the hell would that be considered a PED? If you eat steak I guess you're on steroids.

[AshenShug4r]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I approve of this big, muscle-bound beautiful ladies.
Seriously, all of those folk claiming how a woman can only be buff if she's on male-drugs. Use google or something.

I study this, lol. Many top female athletes(and all top female bodybuilders) are on one or more anabolic compounds.
Ronda Rousey, the MMA fighter that was posted, isn't what I would consider 'buff'. Women simply don't have the testosterone to get as large as men. Look at any exceptionally muscled woman and note her resemblance to a male.

[aphelion4]

I've already mentioned this earlier, but I'll say it again. I'm female, and I love Lady Hawke's bodytype. She was curvy, toned and not awkwardly shaped like FemShep was (in ME3--my God, her breasts should not have been sagging like that at her age). I also loved Lady Hawke's run and walk too-it was classy and a refreshing change over DA:O. Hell Lady Hawke is thicker than I am--she's not what I would classify as "thin", and I run/kickbox.

As has been mentioned, male characters suffer from the same lack of diversity that female characters do. I'm hoping they add a weight/muscle definition/mass slider into the game so that way everyone will be happy with their preferred, ideal bodytype. So yeah...more options are always good. :3

Edit: just wanted to add that I do feel "powerful" as Lady Hawke. I don't need overcompensating/copious amounts of muscle mass to feel badass.

Modifié par aphelion4, 26 mars 2013 - 02:06 .

[JorieSilver]

Janan Pacha, I'm really sorry if I've offended you or frustrated you--it is not my intention.

I think, when it comes down to it, there are going to be games that offer lots and lots of customization options and games that don't. I don't think we can realistically demand extensive customization in every single video game out there. I'm sorry that you don't feel represented by the male models found in most games. That's not good either.

I'm not saying that the male models used are perfect or that all gamers are totally fine with them--or even that all women dislike the current female models. I'm saying that the design motivations are not the same. I'm saying that all bioware character models that I can think of, irrespective of gender, were designed to appeal to a majority of a single gender--men. That is where the inequality comes into play for me.

All I'm asking is that Bioware not forget the ladies. I understand that you believe this is a step sideways rather than forward, but I don't. I think when character models for women are designed in a way that has more to do with finding a good (not best, not only) way to depict a strong woman (who may be incidentally sexy) than finding a good way to depict something sexy for a male gamer to look at (who, arguably, is not *necessarily* weak, noodle arms or no), we've taken a step towards gender equality in gaming.

It's not about having a character that looks exactly how I want her to in-game. It's about buying games from developers who think about people *of my gender* (rather than people exactly like me) when they are designing character models.

[New Display Name]

Yes, males are typically muscle bound in games, but it's a male fantasy.
And as Mitosis said, the design of female characters are also a male fantasy. It's all male fantasy. That needs to change.

[Oberkaiser]

HJF4 wrote...

Yes, males are typically muscle bound in games, but it's a male fantasy.
And as Mitosis said, the design of female characters are also a male fantasy. It's all male fantasy. That needs to change.

Well, the patriarchy pays for your video games so better deal with it.

[Fredward]

Janan Pacha wrote...

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that things are not currently equal.

What you're refusing to understand is that asking for one sided additions doesn't result in equality, and that doing to others exactly what was done to you (replacing one static with another) to make yourself happy doesn't result in anything but 'the same exact issue all over again'. As if it's any different than asking that the character be skinny or slender or curvy.

Only a grant of actual customization, lots of it, with options across both genders for many persons addressing multiple tastes will get you equality. You're not asking for equality. You're not asking for a good thing. You're not righting a wrong. You're asking for inequality of a new kind, instead of 'you' bein unhappy with one body type you want 'other people' to be unhappy with a different body type (replacing one static with another).

I'm all for improving everyone's experience,

Then ask for things that will actually do that.

Right now, we're stuck with models that were designed to look sexy for male players, not to make female players feel strong.

You seem to be under the impression that all male (and female) players are happy with the Male model as it currently exists, something I've already addressed thoroughly. It's almost as if there are people that have issue with both models. Why is your issue more important exactly? It's not. No, the people with issue with the male character aren't more important either. People that think either of the issues are important, and want solutions to those issues that exclude people are selfish. You're being selfish. You are only asking that one static be replaced with another. You see one group is happy now, but you're unhappy, and you want to be made happy at the price of another group being made unhappy. It's not good. It's not right. It's not equal. It's selfish. It's wrong. It's doing the 'exact' same thing to others that has been done to you. And you know how that feels so you should bloody well know better.

It would be awesome if we could all personalize our characters to that extent, so that every individual could have a character that looked exactly how they wanted. That would be awesome.

Yes, it would.

 

I'm not a game developer--however, I imagine such a task would be incredibly costly or more people would do it.

And yet, it is done, and in more than a handful of games that mysteriously haven't sacrificed quality even though a few of them 'are not' top from grade studious supported by some of the largest publishers. It's almost like the people working on the writing and gameplay mechanics aren't the same people that would be working on the character customization.

Realistically, all humans in DA:I are going to have one of two body shapes: male or female. They'll be copy/pasted for each and every PC, party member, and random NPC hanging out on the street repeating the same seven words over and over again every time you click them. All we're asking is that the female body shape be designed for women to feel powerful and not for men to ogle. Because that's what men already have.

As if the only people that like the old female body type are men. As if the only people that hate the old female body type are women. As if neither men nor women like or dislike the male body type we're always stuck with.

Ask for something that will actually solve the problem, rather than creating the exact same problem all over again - just like the current body type - it shuts entire groups of people out, and entire character concepts out. It excludes multiples, just like the current body type excludes multiples. These are non-inclusive solutions.

Ask for something that will actually include as many people as possible, rather than exclude everyone except you and the people that share your opinion. It's selfish. it's wrong. Asking that other people be put in the same position you are 'now' doesn't solve anything, it's just a spiteful, 'well I had to deal with it, so now they have to deal with it too to make it right, to make it equal.' Except it doesn't make it equal. No solution like that makes things equal. It just creates another version of inequality.

Ask for something inclusive to as many people as possible. As for customization options, good customization options of significant variety, for both genders. As few people left out as possible. As many people as possible included.

One problem at a time. I like customization options, too.

Then ask for them, in detail. Otherwise it's just hollow an empty, "I would but doing something just for me and people that share my viewpoint is so much easier.' Nevermind that, just like the last body type, it screws over anyone that doesn't like the new body type.

In a perfect world, where men and women were already equal in the gaming-verse, I wouldn't have to make the distinction. But it's not perfect, so I'm going to keep making the distinction until the situation gets better.

The distinctions made on all sides further aggravate, resulting in further inequality in various forms ping ponging between both sides ad nauseum ad infinitum. The solution to inequality is never new forms of inequality. It's actual equality. Actual equality doesn't mean, "I get what I want and other people don't" and no amount of 'the female is not muscular' will make things equal, it will only be the same problem all over again, where new people are excluded - and no, they won't just be the only that want slender skinny and curvy body types. They'll be all brands of people with all brands of ideas and tastes. It won't just be the ones that want the thing you don't want.

Equality in this case means customization where we all get the options we want, and deal with the options we don't like also being present in addition to that, for both genders.

God knows I've never once, in all my years of gaming, not even once - I repeat, not even once -  have I gotten to play as, or create a male character that I actually liked the look of. It'd be nice to, for once, actually have that option. Just once. But I won't ask for it at the expense of 'everyone' else that likes the current male body type. Instead I ask for 'customization' that still allows them the options they like, that still allows many options I'd never take - in addition to those I would. Customization options for both genders, and enough of them to be as inclusive as realistically possible . . . that's what I ask instead. Not just for me. Not self serving. But for as many people as possible - and you're included in that.

I want you to be able to make the female character to your preference, but not at the cost of everyone else, just like I don't want to make the character 'I'd prefer' at the cost of everyone else.

I want to include as many people as possible in creating the characters they want, and exclude as few as possible. Customization across both genders allowing for a variety of body types, features and coloring results in this. Replacing one static with another does not. It never will. It just excludes a different set of people. It's the same problem all over again. It's not a solution - it's a never ending cycle.

All my likes belong to this post. If I could hand out internet medals you'd get like 5 man.

HJF4 wrote...

Yes, males are typically muscle bound in games, but it's a male fantasy.
And
as Mitosis said, the design of female characters are also a male
fantasy. It's all male fantasy. That needs to change.

Uhm. No. Stop generalizing. My desire to play a big muscle bound man-ape equates my desire to play a big muscle bound she-ape.

[Commander Kurt]

You guys really don't see the difference here? I find that astounding...
The men are made to look able. This is an easy choice since able-looking men are considered sexy by females and idolized by men. It also fits with the characters role.

The women are made to look unable. This used to be an easy choice since unable-looking women are considered sexy by men and that was enough, but times are changing. More men are starting to find able-looking women sexy, women are gaming now, and many gamers prefer characters whos visulal appearance fits with the characters role.

I agree that it is important than men not feel preassured to fit the role of the able man, but videogames are a very strange place to fight that good fight. Women not feeling preassured to fit the role of the unable woman, however, should be right up the mediums alley. Being able is, after all, what videogames are all about.

Being able while looking unable is just... weird.