309 réponses à ce sujet

[JorieSilver]

HJF4 didn't say it was THE ONLY MALE FANTASY EVER to play a muscle bound man-ape, but it is *a* male fantasy. Just as playing an over-sexualized female boob creature is also *a* male fantasy. All we're asking for is, just once, to instead get *a* female fantasy, you know, for females to play. Because we play too.

I really want to emphasize that I'm not against lots of customization. If we get that, I'll be ecstatic. But considering Bioware is only giving us one race to play (because time), I'm thinking we're not going to get a whole lot of body diversity (again, because time).

It doesn't take any extra time to make a less overtly sexual female model than it does to make a super-sexyfied one.

EDIT:

Commander Kurt said...

You guys really don't see the difference here? I find that astounding...
The men are made to look able. This is an easy choice since able-looking men are considered sexy by females and idolized by men. It also fits with the characters role.

The women are made to look unable. This used to be an easy choice since unable-looking women are considered sexy by men and that was enough, but times are changing. More men are starting to find able-looking women sexy, women are gaming now, and many gamers prefer characters whos visulal appearance fits with the characters role.

I agree that it is important than men not feel preassured to fit the role of the able man, but videogames are a very strange place to fight that good fight. Women not feeling preassured to fit the role of the unable woman, however, should be right up the mediums alley. Being able is, after all, what videogames are all about.

Being able while looking unable is just... weird.

Also this. so much this.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 26 mars 2013 - 09:56 .

[BeatoSama]

Yeah I'm all for customization but if we only do get one body model I want it to be something less conventionally beautiful (I want a fat female protagonist in a game dammit, give me one bioware).

[Giant ambush beetle]

Commander Kurt wrote...

You guys really don't see the difference here? I find that astounding...
The men are made to look able. This is an easy choice since able-looking men are considered sexy by females and idolized by men. It also fits with the characters role.

The women are made to look unable. This used to be an easy choice since unable-looking women are considered sexy by men and that was enough, but times are changing. More men are starting to find able-looking women sexy, women are gaming now, and many gamers prefer characters whos visulal appearance fits with the characters role.

I agree that it is important than men not feel preassured to fit the role of the able man, but videogames are a very strange place to fight that good fight. Women not feeling preassured to fit the role of the unable woman, however, should be right up the mediums alley. Being able is, after all, what videogames are all about.

Being able while looking unable is just... weird.

*thundering applause*

[HAG1686]

Commander Kurt wrote...

You guys really don't see the difference here? I find that astounding...
The men are made to look able. This is an easy choice since able-looking men are considered sexy by females and idolized by men. It also fits with the characters role.

The women are made to look unable. This used to be an easy choice since unable-looking women are considered sexy by men and that was enough, but times are changing. More men are starting to find able-looking women sexy, women are gaming now, and many gamers prefer characters whos visulal appearance fits with the characters role.

I agree that it is important than men not feel preassured to fit the role of the able man, but videogames are a very strange place to fight that good fight. Women not feeling preassured to fit the role of the unable woman, however, should be right up the mediums alley. Being able is, after all, what videogames are all about.

Being able while looking unable is just... weird.

I don't find the issue to be able vs. unable, because quite frankly, I see female Hawke as a fit, slender, healthy woman (which for many does not equal weak). I think the real issue is designing women models as a stereotypical standard of sexy: large breasts, slender waist, and generous hips. Now, many men and women do find that sexy and want to be with that/look like that. However, the problem comes with that being the only option, because it says that that is the only normal/acceptable body, which is a problem that permeates our whole society. DA mitigates this slightly by the way it dresses both male and female Hawke in very similar armors/outfits. However, the issue still remains.

As for a female body model designed with women in mind, I'm not sure what that would look like. I'm guessing that many women would be happy with Hawke having smaller breasts and a slightly larger build (Aveline?). Many still would like a model with more body fat. And then many would probably like to keep Hawke as she is. Thus, if you just replace one standard with another, you really aren't solving the underlying problem. That is why I believe the only real/equal way to create body models with both men and women in mind is to create body sliders. That way, there is no "this body is good/acceptable, while this body is not," it is just simply, "you have a body." 

[Estelindis]

1) I understand games only giving one body type. It is a pain to adapt all the armour and clothing for each type.

2) I dislike the arms of my female hero looking like twigs.

3) I dislike even more the bizarre neck contortions to which female characters are sometimes subjected. It may happen to male characters but I can't remember it. It may just be an unfortunate side-effect of the animation rig in some situations. I'm thinking of the kind of thing that happens to Morrigan's neck during the Dark Ritual scene. I mean dayum.

--> If there is some way to only have one body type and still make the arms of females more substantial and not give them freakish necks, then please do that! Thanks.

[Topsider]

People are going round in circles here, only interested in what pleases them. If there's a single body type then clearly it should be an average build, not buff or skinny, but is acceptable to most players (who don't expect perfection).

What about female mages and rogues? Would they look good with a muscular physique? I'm pretty sure you'd get complaints about that too; "mages don't hit the gym every day!".... "I want my rogue slim and agile, not a brute!"

If a body slider isn't possible, femHawke's shape will probably be reused, or something similar. She looks fine.

[JorieSilver]

...and here we go again. Circles is right.

Right about now we're going to have someone say that strong women have noodle arms, because VAGINA PEOPLE CANT HAVE MUSCLE MASS.

[bmwcrazy]

Meh, I don't care. You don't have to look like a disgusting body builder to have strong muscles.

Meanwhile, I want my Dragon Age 3 character to look like this.

[Topsider]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

...and here we go again. Circles is right.

Right about now we're going to have someone say that strong women have noodle arms, because VAGINA PEOPLE CANT HAVE MUSCLE MASS.

hmm, where did this "noodle" arms stuff come from? That pic of Hawke on the first page? well, that's very misleading because from the side they aren't spaghetti-like at all. I think people are complaining for the sake of complaining, which is nothing new on the internet.

If there's only one body shape then it's the majority you cater to, not the extremes at either end. An average build that suits mage, rogue, and warrior. 

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I do think it would be cool if you got a slider to pick the body type (like Saints Row) but considering even old ladies in Dragon Age had the same body type as the Warden I'm guessing this maybe takes too much effort (or puts a strain on the graphics, causes bugs, I dunno). I personally think it would be really cool if it was class dependent (even for the blokes). Mages are skinny, rogues are slim but toned and warriors are quite buff. Would be cool if there was a difference in height too. Warriors should be tall where as rogues are small to be more sneaky.

I'm not saying they should go mad on the amount of muscle. I'm thinking more of a Jessica Ennis amount of muscle, she won the gold medal for the heptathlon so obviously she's a good all around athlete which I think would be a realistic build for someone like Hawke or Shepard.

[imbs]

bmwcrazy makin most sense here. Why would Bioware want to make the default body ugly? This isn't a simulator of any kind m8s its a fantasy game. Prettier the better. Goes for males too.

[eroeru]

bmwcrazy also has good pics.

What I do want is some sexy virgin-girl-next-door types, and detailed "running animations".

[Fredward]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

HJF4 didn't say it was THE ONLY MALE FANTASY EVER to play a muscle bound man-ape, but it is *a* male fantasy. Just as playing an over-sexualized female boob creature is also *a* male fantasy. All we're asking for is, just once, to instead get *a* female fantasy, you know, for females to play. Because we play too.

I really want to emphasize that I'm not against lots of customization. If we get that, I'll be ecstatic. But considering Bioware is only giving us one race to play (because time), I'm thinking we're not going to get a whole lot of body diversity (again, because time).

It doesn't take any extra time to make a less overtly sexual female model than it does to make a super-sexyfied one.

And playing a conventionally attractive female is utterly off putting to all women everywhere? This argument is stupid. There aren't absolutes here. There are going to be men who love playing muscley men, there are women that are going to love playing incongruously svelte women. There are women who are going to enjoy staring at a freakishly muscular man and there are men who are going to enjoy staring at femHawke's freakishly mobile hips. Pacha is right when he says suddenly just shoving one group into the spotlight won't fix anything. Until such a time that such a level of customization is feasible we'll (men/women/elderly/disabled/whateverthecoitus) just have to deal and make peace with the fact that NO ONE is going to be 100% happy with a system that forces you to look a certain way. Suddenly catering to one specific group just because they have the seeming moral high ground is just as bad as continuing the current system.

[KainD]

Topsider wrote...

People are going round in circles here, only interested in what pleases them. If there's a single body type then clearly it should be an average build, not buff or skinny, but is acceptable to most players (who don't expect perfection).

What about female mages and rogues? Would they look good with a muscular physique? I'm pretty sure you'd get complaints about that too; "mages don't hit the gym every day!".... "I want my rogue slim and agile, not a brute!"

If a body slider isn't possible, femHawke's shape will probably be reused, or something similar. She looks fine.

Then we are talking about the wrong adjustment. Male model should be made less muscular than that of Shepard/Hawke, and the Female model remain the same as Hawke. 

[Topsider]

KainD wrote...

Topsider wrote...

People are going round in circles here, only interested in what pleases them. If there's a single body type then clearly it should be an average build, not buff or skinny, but is acceptable to most players (who don't expect perfection).

What about female mages and rogues? Would they look good with a muscular physique? I'm pretty sure you'd get complaints about that too; "mages don't hit the gym every day!".... "I want my rogue slim and agile, not a brute!"

If a body slider isn't possible, femHawke's shape will probably be reused, or something similar. She looks fine.

Then we are talking about the wrong adjustment. Male model should be made less muscular than that of Shepard/Hawke, and the Female model remain the same as Hawke. 

That's a good idea actually, but I'm not sure it would satisfy those who want a "buff" female.

[KiwiQuiche]

Commander Kurt wrote...

You guys really don't see the difference here? I find that astounding...
The men are made to look able. This is an easy choice since able-looking men are considered sexy by females and idolized by men. It also fits with the characters role.

The women are made to look unable. This used to be an easy choice since unable-looking women are considered sexy by men and that was enough, but times are changing. More men are starting to find able-looking women sexy, women are gaming now, and many gamers prefer characters whos visulal appearance fits with the characters role.

I agree that it is important than men not feel preassured to fit the role of the able man, but videogames are a very strange place to fight that good fight. Women not feeling preassured to fit the role of the unable woman, however, should be right up the mediums alley. Being able is, after all, what videogames are all about.

Being able while looking unable is just... weird.

Seriously, this is a lot of what I mean. Loads of people seem to be missing that point by a mile.

[KiwiQuiche]

Topsider wrote...

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

...and here we go again. Circles is right.

Right about now we're going to have someone say that strong women have noodle arms, because VAGINA PEOPLE CANT HAVE MUSCLE MASS.

hmm, where did this "noodle" arms stuff come from? That pic of Hawke on the first page? well, that's very misleading because from the side they aren't spaghetti-like at all. I think people are complaining for the sake of complaining, which is nothing new on the internet.

If there's only one body shape then it's the majority you cater to, not the extremes at either end. An average build that suits mage, rogue, and warrior. 

Dude, look at Femshep and tell me her arms don't look like noodles compared to any other male, especially Sheploo.

And no, I'm 'not complaing for the sake of complaing', it's a valid complaint at how women look in Bioware games.

[New Display Name]

Thus, if you just replace one standard with another, you really aren't solving the underlying problem.

I think the underlying problem is phobia and prejudice against women with different body types than is conventionally attractive, as well as body types being made for the male gaze. Many of the posts in this thread makes that clear.
For the goal of solving that problem, creating female characters (especially the main protagonist) who have extra muscle or extra weight helps, as does catering to both male and female characters more equally. That means less muscle bound powerful men + buxom thin women in every game.

Having different body types to choose from solves that problem of choice, but does not solve the harmful disgust some people have with muscled or plump women. Or the stigma against men who aren't very muscled.

[JorieSilver]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

HJF4 didn't say it was THE ONLY MALE FANTASY EVER to play a muscle bound man-ape, but it is *a* male fantasy. Just as playing an over-sexualized female boob creature is also *a* male fantasy. All we're asking for is, just once, to instead get *a* female fantasy, you know, for females to play. Because we play too.

I really want to emphasize that I'm not against lots of customization. If we get that, I'll be ecstatic. But considering Bioware is only giving us one race to play (because time), I'm thinking we're not going to get a whole lot of body diversity (again, because time).

It doesn't take any extra time to make a less overtly sexual female model than it does to make a super-sexyfied one.

And playing a conventionally attractive female is utterly off putting to all women everywhere? This argument is stupid. There aren't absolutes here. There are going to be men who love playing muscley men, there are women that are going to love playing incongruously svelte women. There are women who are going to enjoy staring at a freakishly muscular man and there are men who are going to enjoy staring at femHawke's freakishly mobile hips. Pacha is right when he says suddenly just shoving one group into the spotlight won't fix anything. Until such a time that such a level of customization is feasible we'll (men/women/elderly/disabled/whateverthecoitus) just have to deal and make peace with the fact that NO ONE is going to be 100% happy with a system that forces you to look a certain way. Suddenly catering to one specific group just because they have the seeming moral high ground is just as bad as continuing the current system.

So...until we can fix all problems everywhere, we should not try to make anything better ever?

This argument makes no sense to me, and watch who you call stupid. People don't like it very much. (That is also a generalization.)

It's a fairly accurate generalization to say that muscle-bound men and slight, buxom women is a male fantasy. Sure, some women like that too, but it wasn't *for* them. It was *for* the dudes who liked to go "ugh, me manly!" and "ooh, boobs." If you want to get anything done, you have to make some generalizations.

Bioware is a gaming company, and this strategy has served them well in the past. This thread is one way for us to show them, "hey. There are women who play these games too, and we don't like it very much when we get objectified." Maybe when they make their next sweeping generalizations about what their audience wants to play, they take into account that gamers are a different demographic than they were ten or fifteen years ago. 

You want more customization? Feel free to complain about it. But don't come here and say that this request is invalid because it's not the same exact thing you want. If you're totally indifferent to this issue, I can't understand what you're doing here arguing about it.

[bmwcrazy]

This thread is also a way for us to show Bioware, "Hey, there are women like me who prefer playing as attractive buxom female characters in your games."

[Fredward]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
So...until we can fix all problems everywhere, we should not try to make anything better ever?

This argument makes no sense to me, and watch who you call stupid. People don't like it very much. (That is also a generalization.)

It's a fairly accurate generalization to say that muscle-bound men and slight, buxom women is a male fantasy. Sure, some women like that too, but it wasn't *for* them. It was *for* the dudes who liked to go "ugh, me manly!" and "ooh, boobs." If you want to get anything done, you have to make some generalizations.

Bioware is a gaming company, and this strategy has served them well in the past. This thread is one way for us to show them, "hey. There are women who play these games too, and we don't like it very much when we get objectified." Maybe when they make their next sweeping generalizations about what their audience wants to play, they take into account that gamers are a different demographic than they were ten or fifteen years ago. 

You want more customization? Feel free to complain about it. But don't come here and say that this request is invalid because it's not the same exact thing you want. If you're totally indifferent to this issue, I can't understand what you're doing here arguing about it.

Ugh dear sweet potato jesus. That women suck at driving is a "fairly accurate generilization," which is an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. That men are better than women at math is a "fairly accurate generlization." Women are passive is a "fairly accurate generlization." Do you wanna keep playing this game or have I made my point? Generilizations do not represent a universal view, no matter how much you might like the idea, so telling me I should just be quiet and accept the fact that because I have a penis I am a neanderthal is incredibly, mind-bogglingly hypocritical.

And what you seem to be failing to realize is that what you're suggesting isn't an objectively better solution. It's benefiting one group over another. Which isn't right whatever your moral outrage might say.

I don't want to play a muscle bound man-ape in games. Yet that's what I get. Always. Would I prefer playing an average/skinny guy? Yes. Do I feel I have the moral high ground in asking for it? Yes. Do I also realize that me getting what I want comes at the cost of someone else losing what they love? Yes.

My beliefs, wants and desires might be, in my eyes, morally superior to any other conclusion but they remain my beliefs, wants and desires. Someone might believe something totally contradictory to my own beliefs but that doesn't make what they want less valid.

EDIT: Oh and btw I was calling THIS (the "which group should we try and placate?" argument that is going on, between us, right now. Is stupid) argument stupid. Not you. Hence "this argument is stupid" and not "your argument is stupid."

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 27 mars 2013 - 04:48 .

[Topsider]

Some people are offended by pretty much anything these days - it's the "culture of complaining". The internet especially has become a haven for negative views. I guess it was only a matter of time until female muscle size was somehow linked to "women are objectified" in games. Even a perfectly natural attractive woman with a nice figure and large breasts, would probably be accused of being sexualized if her body/face was used as the default model. There can't be any hint that a woman can actually look sexy and still be 'strong'. That's catering to male fantasies. 

Hopefully there's some kind of body customization which satisfies most people. I say most because someone will complain even if it's the greatest character creator ever. "where's my breast slider?" I am outraged!

Bioware should consider making the default female an overweight and unattractive middle-aged woman. The reaction would be hilarious. "Oh no, my hero can't be fat, unattractive, or old... only young and pretty people can save the world!" Yes, there is much to complain about.

[Mr.House]

The Bioware team should look at Lara when they create the look of the female PC, please give us a woman that looks like a hero and can survive, not skin and bones like in ME3 please(though LadyHawke was not as bad, still needs work)

[JorieSilver]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...


Ugh dear sweet potato jesus. That women suck at driving is a "fairly accurate generilization," which is an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. That men are better than women at math is a "fairly accurate generlization." Women are passive is a "fairly accurate generlization." Do you wanna keep playing this game or have I made my point? Generilizations do not represent a universal view, no matter how much you might like the idea, so telling me I should just be quiet and accept the fact that because I have a penis I am a neanderthal is incredibly, mind-bogglingly hypocritical.

And what you seem to be failing to realize is that what you're suggesting isn't an objectively better solution. It's benefiting one group over another. Which isn't right whatever your moral outrage might say.

I don't want to play a muscle bound man-ape in games. Yet that's what I get. Always. Would I prefer playing an average/skinny guy? Yes. Do I feel I have the moral high ground in asking for it? Yes. Do I also realize that me getting what I want comes at the cost of someone else losing what they love? Yes.

My beliefs, wants and desires might be, in my eyes, morally superior to any other conclusion but they remain my beliefs, wants and desires. Someone might believe something totally contradictory to my own beliefs but that doesn't make what they want less valid.

EDIT: Oh and btw I was calling THIS (the "which group should we try and placate?" argument that is going on, between us, right now. Is stupid) argument stupid. Not you. Hence "this argument is stupid" and not "your argument is stupid."

You're not understanding me, which is what I find frustrating. I never, ever, said that because you have a penis, you are a neanderthal. I said that bioware assumes, correctly or incorrectly, that their core audience would like to be a buff man who likes to stare at sexy ladies. I have made no personal judgments about you or anyone else. I wasn't even sure of your gender until this last post. 

Do I think my fight is different from yours? Yeah. I do. It's not about diversity in body representation. It's about objectification, it's about over-sexualization, its about feeling a little like an outsider every time you pick up a game, because the women weren't designed to look strong and capable for you, they were designed to look sexy for the male players (the ones that the developer believes is their core audience). Each and every time, it makes me (and many, but not all, other female players) feel just a little less welcome in their own gaming experience. Every time I see something like Bethany or Isabela's enormous breasts, or nearly the entire female cast of Mass Effect 2, or the incredibly thin arms + big boobs of ME3 femShep and the DA:O models, I feel like I'm intruding just a little on a dude world that wasn't meant for me. 

And that's only in recent Bioware games. A couple years ago, a friend of mine found out I was into RPGs and handed me his copy of the Witcher. Ha. That was a video game that definitely didn't care if any woman played it ever.

I'm allowed to raise a stink about the generalization that Bioware is currently making: that men like to stare at sexy ladies, and that's who buys our video games. I threw my hat in the ring and provided support for a dissenting opinion. Obviously some women are not in agreement. I make no generalizations about what other women want, and I make no generalizations about what the sum of men want. I am merely stating that if Bioware wants to sell games, they have to make generalizations about who is going to play their games and what kind of gaming experience those people want.

I was going to say some more about wanting my games' strong capable women to look like strong, capable women (in the long-sword swinging sense), but I've said it, and other people have said it, and if you're not getting by now, you're not going to get it. Hell, I already said a whole lot in this post, and I didn't even mean to. I'm done. You can tell me that I'm being judgemental and selfish again. I know that's not what I'm doing, and I'm done trying to convince you otherwise.

In the end, Bioware is gonna do what Bioware has to do to make more money. But unless we make a stink, they aren't going to change, because they are going to think their current formula works just fine, thank you very much.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 27 mars 2013 - 07:14 .