309 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Filament wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I don't want to play a muscle bound man-ape in games. Yet that's what I get. Always. 

Play more Japanese games.

I don't like the other aspects of japanese games, but yeah, characters in japanese games are perfect.

[KiwiQuiche]

Mr.House wrote...

The Bioware team should look at Lara when they create the look of the female PC, please give us a woman that looks like a hero and can survive, not skin and bones like in ME3 please(though LadyHawke was not as bad, still needs work)

Are you refering to the latest one with Lara? I admit, that's a kick ass game, and Lara actually gets beat up and bloodied and still looks like she could hand you your ass. Which she does to quite a few goons along the way.

[Mr.House]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Bioware team should look at Lara when they create the look of the female PC, please give us a woman that looks like a hero and can survive, not skin and bones like in ME3 please(though LadyHawke was not as bad, still needs work)

Are you refering to the latest one with Lara? I admit, that's a kick ass game, and Lara actually gets beat up and bloodied and still looks like she could hand you your ass. Which she does to quite a few goons along the way.

Yes the newest Lara.

[Topsider]

The new Lara Croft is impressive - a very tough and capable fighter - but her overall body shape is not much different to LadyHawke. Her arms look 'thicker' from the front but are still nowhere near Male Hawke/Shepard. And that's a good thing. Female Hawke is absolutely fine, imo.

edit:  found a decent image at last...

Modifié par Topsider, 27 mars 2013 - 09:12 .

[Mr.House]

Topsider wrote...

The new Lara Croft is impressive - a very tough and capable fighter - but her overall body shape is not much different to LadyHawke. Her arms look 'thicker' from the front but are still nowhere near Male Hawke/Shepard. And that's a good thing. Female Hawke is absolutely fine, imo.

LadyHawke was ifne yes, but fater the fiasco with femshep in ME3 with her ksin and obne look, some are worried they'll do the same to female inquisiter, and hopefully that does not happen. LadyHawke/New Lara are good looks, ME3 femshep is not(body, not face)

[Battlebloodmage]

Topsider wrote...

The new Lara Croft is impressive - a very tough and capable fighter - but her overall body shape is not much different to LadyHawke. Her arms look 'thicker' from the front but are still nowhere near Male Hawke/Shepard. And that's a good thing. Female Hawke is absolutely fine, imo.

edit:  found a decent image at last...

She looks kinda of Asian in this picture. 

She looks athletic enough. It's a good balance for female gamers who like to look toned as well as female gamers who want their avatar to have an athletic build. 

[grumpymooselion]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
She looks kinda of Asian in this picture. 

Eh, I can't agree that she looks Asian. She looks decent though, I suppose. Not something I'd try to make a female character look like, but whatever, that's just me.

I actually liked that they tried to give the long hair something approaching decent animation in that. Be the Male or Female gender in question, I've always wanted longer hair to be an option, especially an option that didn't didn't look like stuff, unmoving plastic.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 27 mars 2013 - 10:03 .

[grumpymooselion]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

Just as playing an over-sexualized female boob creature is also *a* male fantasy.

Growing up, in general, and growing up across multiple cultures, I can very firmly slap that down. I'm sure there 'are' men that find that idea interesting, but the majority of people I have come across, in my life, wanting to be more slender, be more curvy and have larger breasts - are not men.

More to the point, there was nothing overly sexual about my play addition play throughs of the Mass Effect series, DA:O and DA2 as a female character that had anything to do with your absurd assertion that it was due to some 'over-sexualized female bood creature' fantasy. Not only is the assertion wrong, but the suggestions itself is outright sick and offensive - making all sorts of assumptions about the males that would play a female character that - even if true in some cases - is not, I repeat not, in any way founded in sane reality for the rest.

I really want to emphasize that I'm not against lots of customization. If we get that, I'll be ecstatic. But considering Bioware is only giving us one race to play (because time), I'm thinking we're not going to get a whole lot of body diversity (again, because time).

If you want customization, then ask for it.

Asking for the female body to be changed, 'to your tastes' doesn't solve anything, just like asking for the male body to be changed, 'to my tastes' wouldn't solve anything. In both cases it only creates a new static, and leaves new people out. It puts people in the positions we were in prior. It leaves them out, and only includes us. I know how that feels. You should know how that feels. It's not a fun feeling. I don't like it. You don't like it. So why would either of want to do that to other people? Push for something that will actually include people.

Yes, I want to be able to play a character that looks how I'd like. Yes, I want you to be able to play a character that looks how you'd like. I do not want either of these things at the expense of other people - and I absolutely do not believe that people that want to play as male or female characters that look other than I, or you, would like do so out of some sick perverted fantasy.

Want to play a slender little bookworm girl, that's got long black hair, has really pale skin and small breasts? Fine. Want to play a more curvy feminine character with medium brunette hair and olive skin but dresses conservatively so the curves she happens to have aren't really on display as a personality quirk? Fine. Want to play a husky, outdoorsy female with tanned skin scars, average breasts and short blonde hair? Fine. Want to play a dark skinned muscle bound woman with tattoos and scars all over with large breasts and long braided hair? Fine. Want to mix and match aesthetics from those concepts and others? Fine. Now switch the genders and go through a variety of male body types, features and concepts. Those are all fine too. All of them are fine. The ones I don't like. The ones you don't like. The ones I do like. The ones you do like. All of them.

None of them are superior or right. They're all subject to taste. Asking that just one of them be forced on 'everyone' is, however, wrong. It's only doing, from a different angle, 'exactly' what is already done - what's been done already is that we have one body type, from both genders, always forced on us. You don't like that. So why would you do that again to other players? Ask for something that will 'actually' fix the problem. Ask for something that will 'actually' include people and bring them together.

Stop asking for one static to be replaced by another static, fixing nothing, only creating the same problem all over again - a cycle, not a solution. Ask for customization, something that can, if done right, actually fix the core problem.

You know what? Yes, customization 'is' less likely to happen, it will be harder to convince Bioware EA to give it to us . . . but you know what? Since when has the high road, the right choice, ever been the easy road to likely success?

Take the low road if you want to. No matter your intentions - it won't lead anywhere but to a cycle of the same problem repeated over and over and over. We'll have these, "the body type I like was left out and I think it should be the only body type we have access to" threads over and over and over, each one ignoring that they're just creating a new pool of happy people and new pools of unhappy people. Never thinking that if they all, in massive number, together, requested the customization control to serve all their tastes . . . maybe, just maybe, more than one group could be happy at a time.

But no. Let's be petty. "They got what they want now I want what I want and I don't care who gets left out as long as I get what I want." Let's be spitefull and assume anyone that likes other body types is some sort of pervert that oversexualizes women. Let's forget this is an RPG where we're supposed to create a character, a concept, of varying type - not one type - and try to play through the game as that character with all its flaws and limitations in place.

Variety. Choice. Customization. Inclusiveness.

Good.

Singularity. Lack of choice. Lack of customization. Exclusiveness.

Bad.

[Oberkaiser]

Clearly, infinite sliders are the only solution.

[BeatoSama]

Janan Pacha wrote...

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

Just as playing an over-sexualized female boob creature is also *a* male fantasy.

Growing up, in general, and growing up across multiple cultures, I can very firmly slap that down. I'm sure there 'are' men that find that idea interesting, but the majority of people I have come across, in my life, wanting to be more slender, be more curvy and have larger breasts - are not men.

More to the point, there was nothing overly sexual about my play addition play throughs of the Mass Effect series, DA:O and DA2 as a female character that had anything to do with your absurd assertion that it was due to some 'over-sexualized female bood creature' fantasy. Not only is the assertion wrong, but the suggestions itself is outright sick and offensive - making all sorts of assumptions about the males that would play a female character that - even if true in some cases - is not, I repeat not, in any way founded in sane reality for the rest.

There was nothing sexualized about the Mass Effect series?
Miranda, Samara and Ashley are all heavily sexualized characters. They all run along in high heels despite it being very hard to move in. Several times during conversations with Miri the camera lingers on her ass. And don't get me started on Samara's massive cleavage window. Ashley was deliberately sexed up for ME3.

There is a difference in how design for female characters is approached in comparison for male characters.
Bioware is certainly not that bad at it. And the Dragon Age team is much better at it than the Mass Effect team (Isabela is never subjected to the kind of camera that Miranda is for example).

This is actually less noticeable in the video game industry since generally you only have one body type for all but it's still there such as the earlier example of SWTOR where even the thinnest of the female characters have large boobs.

This is the most accurate depiction of the problems when designing female characters I've been able to find. Why do all the male characters have varying body types while the female characters have one?
http://eschergirls.t...-us-how-to-draw

Male characters aren't as sexualized as female characters. They're not.
Male characters are never subjected to spine destroying poses so they'll be able to show both their ass and their boobs at the same time.
Male characters are never dressed in sexy armor while the female characters strut around in full body.
Male characters are less sexualized in general. Period.

[Cimeas]

The problem with body shapes is that a lot has to be done for armors and weapons to fit.

Even more so, EVERY SINGLE CUTSCENE in which the hero touches an object, or the object touches them, from sitting down at a table to picking up a drink, has to be redone for each body shape/customization level.

[JorieSilver]

Oh please. Janan Pacha, if you can't see that women's bodies are overly sexualized in gaming, I can only assume you are being willfully ignorant.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Foopydoopydoo: if you think all static body models are equally oppressive, then I can't imagine why you are here arguing in a thread asking for a new one.

[Cimeas]

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

[Harle Cerulean]

Cimeas wrote...

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

First, strong and buff do not equal 'butch', not that butch is a bad thing - but conflating them makes your comment look even more ignorant than it is.  And second, only if the vote was open only to women.  I don't give a **** whether men get sad boners when they see a woman with some muscle, their boner is not as important as women being happy with the depiction of their sex.

[Topsider]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

First, strong and buff do not equal 'butch', not that butch is a bad thing - but conflating them makes your comment look even more ignorant than it is.  And second, only if the vote was open only to women.  I don't give a **** whether men get sad boners when they see a woman with some muscle, their boner is not as important as women being happy with the depiction of their sex.

ah yes, a vote. Like when blonde female Shepard 'won' the poll and was viciously attacked because it is a western standard of beauty and therefore 'sexist'. Blonde haired women should instantly feel offended. Even democracy was attacked because the Shepard poll result didn't meet certain expectations, i.e. not blonde. Most of the complainants were female, of course.

Your post is ridiculous to be honest. You think every female gamer wants the same thing? A "woman with some muscle" or they're unhappy with the depiction of their sex? Sad boners, indeed.

[Harle Cerulean]

Topsider wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

First, strong and buff do not equal 'butch', not that butch is a bad thing - but conflating them makes your comment look even more ignorant than it is.  And second, only if the vote was open only to women.  I don't give a **** whether men get sad boners when they see a woman with some muscle, their boner is not as important as women being happy with the depiction of their sex.

ah yes, a vote. Like when blonde female Shepard 'won' the poll and was viciously attacked because it is a western standard of beauty and therefore 'sexist'. Blonde haired women should instantly feel offended. Even democracy was attacked because the Shepard poll result didn't meet certain expectations, i.e. not blonde. Most of the complainants were female, of course.

Your post is ridiculous to be honest. You think every female gamer wants the same thing? A "woman with some muscle" or they're unhappy with the depiction of their sex? Sad boners, indeed.

Did I ever say that all women want the same thing?  No, I didn't.  And yes, plenty of female gamers are unhappy with how women are depicted in videogames in general.  Bioware's games are better than average, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to look for improvement.

If female protagonist design were to be put to a vote, I would want it to not be about which design men want to screw most, but which design female players like best.  I don't think a vote is a good idea regardless, not unless they put the male protagonist up for vote as well... and heck, not even then.  Personally, I'd rather Bioware made their own decisions on the matter for both sexes.

[Kidd]

No voting, please. It could have been great, I thought it was a fantastic idea when it was announced, but that was before I read the facebook comments and what happened on here.

[Avalon The Elf]

Sex sells?

[Topsider]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Topsider wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

First, strong and buff do not equal 'butch', not that butch is a bad thing - but conflating them makes your comment look even more ignorant than it is.  And second, only if the vote was open only to women.  I don't give a **** whether men get sad boners when they see a woman with some muscle, their boner is not as important as women being happy with the depiction of their sex.

ah yes, a vote. Like when blonde female Shepard 'won' the poll and was viciously attacked because it is a western standard of beauty and therefore 'sexist'. Blonde haired women should instantly feel offended. Even democracy was attacked because the Shepard poll result didn't meet certain expectations, i.e. not blonde. Most of the complainants were female, of course.

Your post is ridiculous to be honest. You think every female gamer wants the same thing? A "woman with some muscle" or they're unhappy with the depiction of their sex? Sad boners, indeed.

Did I ever say that all women want the same thing?  No, I didn't.  And yes, plenty of female gamers are unhappy with how women are depicted in videogames in general.  Bioware's games are better than average, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to look for improvement.

If female protagonist design were to be put to a vote, I would want it to not be about which design men want to screw most, but which design female players like best.  I don't think a vote is a good idea regardless, not unless they put the male protagonist up for vote as well... and heck, not even then.  Personally, I'd rather Bioware made their own decisions on the matter for both sexes.

Sure, but what if the protagonist design that female players like best is also the design that most men want to screw? That's a problem, right?  Frankly, until there's more female designers in the industry (not just writers) I don't expect the current situation to change much. Men are catering to men.

btw, I thought the new Tomb Raider was a hit, but apparently even that failed to meet sales expectations. The boss has resigned. Hopefully, they won't blame it on the female protagonist.

Modifié par Topsider, 27 mars 2013 - 07:24 .

[Fredward]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
Oh please. Janan Pacha, if you can't see that women's bodies are overly sexualized in gaming, I can only assume you are being willfully ignorant.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Foopydoopydoo: if you think all static body models are equally oppressive, then I can't imagine why you are here arguing in a thread asking for a new one.

Yeah they are. And there are people, men and women, who like that. You don't. You want it to change. Not by everybody being satisified, which would be fair, impractical but fair, but instead by replacing it with an image you think is better. Taking from someone and giving to someone else. How is that not selfish?

As for the second part of this post the thread is about replacing one group's ideal with another group's ideal, it doesn't state you have to be for or against exclusively, we get to argue a third way. Namely to suck it up until there's a way for everyone to be made relatively happy because otherwise you're just shifting the issue.

YAY for social communism.

[BubbleDncr]

I would be fine with them adding a body slider for you to give your female character buff arms if you wanted, but I would not like the default to be so.

I mean, a realistic warrior woman build is what body type 3 in swtor is...and I hate that build. Looks like a man with breasts. And I like to make my characters pretty.

[Cimeas]

I'm (straight) male and I like to make my male characters at least reasonably 'hot' in games. I certainly don't play an ugly scarred brute with a scowl and a beard if I can't help it.

I'm sure many female players are the same.

Can we not just accept that it's like a TV series. Have you ever noticed that if you watch 90210 or almost any other american tv show based around a group of characters, a COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE proportion of them are ridiculously hot (male and female).

Well it's like that in Bioware games too. Male Shepard and Hawke don't look like male wish-fulfilment tanks. They look like lean, attractive, athletic men. Similarly Female Shepard and Hawke don't look like butch unattractive tanks. They look like lean, attractive, reasonably athletic women.

[JorieSilver]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
Oh please. Janan Pacha, if you can't see that women's bodies are overly sexualized in gaming, I can only assume you are being willfully ignorant.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Foopydoopydoo: if you think all static body models are equally oppressive, then I can't imagine why you are here arguing in a thread asking for a new one.

Yeah they are. And there are people, men and women, who like that. You don't. You want it to change. Not by everybody being satisified, which would be fair, impractical but fair, but instead by replacing it with an image you think is better. Taking from someone and giving to someone else. How is that not selfish?

As for the second part of this post the thread is about replacing one group's ideal with another group's ideal, it doesn't state you have to be for or against exclusively, we get to argue a third way. Namely to suck it up until there's a way for everyone to be made relatively happy because otherwise you're just shifting the issue.

YAY for social communism.

Except that the current body models are objectifying, and I'd rather have one that was empowering. The fact that you honestly don't seem able to see the difference is mindboggling. 

[Saberchic]

I would love if they let us choose body types. Always super skinny women with huge boobs is annoying. I like variety.