309 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I don't want to play a muscle bound man-ape in games. Yet that's what I get. Always. 

Play more Japanese games.

For all the WTF that is Japan's games I must admit I find myself loving their male character models most of the time.

Except Vaan. He can die in a fire.

But Balthier and Basch. (Yes I know Basch is typical muscle bound I don't care.) and all the bishies. <3

And crap my fangirl is showing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mars 2013 - 11:32 .

[HAG1686]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

Except that the current body models are objectifying, and I'd rather have one that was empowering.

I think I agree with you and disagree with you. I don't think it is the body itself that is objectifying. It's how that body is presented. For example, I find Miranda, Liara (well, the entire Asari race), Samara, Ashley in ME3, and even Tali to be highly objectified women despite great character traits, due to how they are presented to the gamer. They wear skin-tight clothes that show off every curve, the camera pans over their bodies in very suggestive ways, and the Asari seem very much like a race built from stereotypical male fantasy. 

I don't believe the same to hold true in Dragon Age, though. Female Hawke is meant to be attractive, yes, but I don't find her to be objectified, with the possible exception being her walk/run animations. She wears almost identical armor to male Hawke, not anything of the chainmail bikini variety. There are no "male gaze" camera angles. Even her lounge wear is very unsexy to western societal standards. The only women in Dragon Age I can think of off the top of my head who are overtly sexual are the prostitutes and Isabella, and overt sexuality is integral to the characters in both circumstances.

So, in Dragon Age, I don't think the problem is objectification, but rather the tiresome trend that only slender buxom women are acceptable/attractive. Society bombards us with this idea at seemingly every turn. I think that's why so many women (and men) get defensive and upset and ask for something different. In that way, I can see why a different representation of the female form would be a breath of fresh air for many. However, I think it is an issue that is too deeply ingrained in society that won't go away until variety, and not one form over another, is seen as the acceptable norm. For me, this is an important issue, and I hope one day, developers will too. 

[HAG1686]

BeatoSama wrote...

This is the most accurate depiction of the problems when designing female characters I've been able to find. Why do all the male characters have varying body types while the female characters have one?
http://eschergirls.t...-us-how-to-draw

Thank you for sharing this. It very clearly illustrates the underlying problem with the representation of women across almost all mediums. Men can be anything and it's okay. Women, though, have to be sexy, and to be that, they have to be slender with ample breasts. 

There is nothing wrong with slender women with big breasts, and there is nothing wrong with being/wanting to be sexy. It is wrong, though, when that is presented as the only acceptable norm, almost all the time.

[Nefla]

Topsider wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

First, strong and buff do not equal 'butch', not that butch is a bad thing - but conflating them makes your comment look even more ignorant than it is.  And second, only if the vote was open only to women.  I don't give a **** whether men get sad boners when they see a woman with some muscle, their boner is not as important as women being happy with the depiction of their sex.

ah yes, a vote. Like when blonde female Shepard 'won' the poll and was viciously attacked because it is a western standard of beauty and therefore 'sexist'. Blonde haired women should instantly feel offended. Even democracy was attacked because the Shepard poll result didn't meet certain expectations, i.e. not blonde. Most of the complainants were female, of course.

Your post is ridiculous to be honest. You think every female gamer wants the same thing? A "woman with some muscle" or they're unhappy with the depiction of their sex? Sad boners, indeed.

I actually was offended when they overturned the results of the femshep vote. I (before I recently dyed my hair) was a blonde woman and I voted for blondeshep. People said so many hateful things, basically saying people like me were offensive, sexist garbage just for existing. I LIKE fem Hawke's body,(though she could do with slightly thicker arms) I like being feminine, wearing dresses, makeup, styling my hair, and wearing *gasp!* high heels! and I have HUGE breasts that I think are awesome. It boggles my mind how someone else's hair/face/body can be offensive to people. If someone wants more variety in body models, great, I love that idea! But don't insult other people who have different tastes. I would not enjoy playing as a burly, flat-chested, masculine woman, or a petite skinny schoolgirl or obese middle-aged woman but I wouldn't go around trash talking people who look like that or like the look. I never understood the idea that women have to lose everything that makes them distinct from a man, they have to essentially become men to be equal with men. I think being a woman is great, and I was born equal to men, I don't need to try to change myself to measure up.

[KiwiQuiche]

Nefla wrote...

Topsider wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

Hmm. If Bioware said

"Here are two female models, one is very butch/buff/strong, the other is like FemHawke from DA2. PICK ONE"

And opened it to community vote, I wonder which one most people would choose. Would the angry people be satisfied then, with whatever option most fans picked?

First, strong and buff do not equal 'butch', not that butch is a bad thing - but conflating them makes your comment look even more ignorant than it is.  And second, only if the vote was open only to women.  I don't give a **** whether men get sad boners when they see a woman with some muscle, their boner is not as important as women being happy with the depiction of their sex.

ah yes, a vote. Like when blonde female Shepard 'won' the poll and was viciously attacked because it is a western standard of beauty and therefore 'sexist'. Blonde haired women should instantly feel offended. Even democracy was attacked because the Shepard poll result didn't meet certain expectations, i.e. not blonde. Most of the complainants were female, of course.

Your post is ridiculous to be honest. You think every female gamer wants the same thing? A "woman with some muscle" or they're unhappy with the depiction of their sex? Sad boners, indeed.

I actually was offended when they overturned the results of the femshep vote. I (before I recently dyed my hair) was a blonde woman and I voted for blondeshep. People said so many hateful things, basically saying people like me were offensive, sexist garbage just for existing. I LIKE fem Hawke's body,(though she could do with slightly thicker arms) I like being feminine, wearing dresses, makeup, styling my hair, and wearing *gasp!* high heels! and I have HUGE breasts that I think are awesome. It boggles my mind how someone else's hair/face/body can be offensive to people. If someone wants more variety in body models, great, I love that idea! But don't insult other people who have different tastes. I would not enjoy playing as a burly, flat-chested, masculine woman, or a petite skinny schoolgirl or obese middle-aged woman but I wouldn't go around trash talking people who look like that or like the look. I never understood the idea that women have to lose everything that makes them distinct from a man, they have to essentially become men to be equal with men. I think being a woman is great, and I was born equal to men, I don't need to try to change myself to measure up.

I think that whole thing was garbage regardless, they should have just used the default Femshep which had been used for the last two games. But it was on facebook; people are fairly stupid on there.

"They have to essentially become men to be equal to men". Well, I hope you haven't gotten that vibe from me, for that is certainly not what I'm trying to get across in this thread.

[10K]

I agree with this, this is one of the reasons I don't play a female protagonist in most games. They're always small and bony. It's unbelievable to the point of laughter sometimes, especially when they're doing something extremely physical. Like that gif in the OP with femshep fighting Vega, It's just laughable to me.

Modifié par mosesarose, 28 mars 2013 - 04:19 .

[Adanu]

mosesarose wrote...

I agree with this, this is one of the reasons I don't play a female protagonist in most games. They're always small and bony. It's unbelievable to the point of laughter sometimes, especially when they're doing something extremely physical. Like that gif in the OP with femshep fighting Vega, It's just laughable to me.

Women are by nature small... but the bony part I will agree with.

[10K]

Adanu wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

I agree with this, this is one of the reasons I don't play a female protagonist in most games. They're always small and bony. It's unbelievable to the point of laughter sometimes, especially when they're doing something extremely physical. Like that gif in the OP with femshep fighting Vega, It's just laughable to me.

Women are by nature small... but the bony part I will agree with.

True women by nature are small. But this shouldn't stop game devs giving female protagonist a bit more tone definition in their muscular structure. They don't need to be huge, it just have to be believable to the role they're portraying.

[Fredward]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
Except that the current body models are objectifying, and I'd rather have one that was empowering. The fact that you honestly don't seem able to see the difference is mindboggling. 

-headdesk- I understand the difference just fine. What you seem to not understand is that there are people who prefer the current models and your wants are not in any way superior to theirs. Furthermore your thing about wanting muscular women would be favoring one group over a dozens and dozens of other groups that have just as much right to be represented. What about disabled people? What about non-buff men? What about people who want to play dwarves? Choosing to suddenly just use muscular female characters isn't fixing anything. Which is why I'm arguing that until such a time a system exists where EVERYONE can be made happy things might as well remain as they are. Or models can be turned into the most bland, neutral things ever aka political correctness but with body shape this time. Not that this doensn't exist anyway but w/e.

The difference between inclusivity and favouritism is a concept you seem utterly incapable of grasping.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 28 mars 2013 - 06:56 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm closing this down now.

Note, I actually agree with UndergoingMitosis simply because I see increased variation, even just between games, as being a good thing. But you're right, it might alienate those who have different preferences. I suppose for better or worse, it's not going to be my call. Personally I'd rather be at a point where it doesn't matter whether the protagonist is a male or female, nor how it looks. The only way to get there is for there to be a plethora of games that have that variety (kind of like movies). We're not there yet.

In any case, we're spinning around in circles now, and I am locking this one down.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 28 mars 2013 - 07:06 .