309 réponses à ce sujet

[Solmanian]

DreGregoire wrote...

Yeah uh get back to me when you have pictures of soldier's that are as heavily trained as an N7 graduate would be, or a sword swinging soldier. These athletic builds are all fine and good but they are for specific sports. Given the caloric intake that the Mass Effect Universe claims a soldier has people might want to rethink exactly how Shepard would look. Also how has the changes in the human body progressed in all that time? If you can have somebody with Miranda's curves I'm guessing it hasn't changed much. LOL!

OK, about modern soldiers. First off, the Mass effect codex saying soldiers caloric intake being 3000 is off, way off. Atleast for soldiers from active combat units. From personel experience I can tell you that military doctors recommend 7800+ calories, triple that of a regular joe from the street (again, only for combat units). It may seem alot, but compare to the 10k+ of olympic athletes. Now you may think "wow, how come they don't get fat with so much calories?". It's actualy simple. Alot of people when going on a diet fail to factor the human body amazing ability to adept. If you start consuming 7800 caloriues a day (without excercise), than you will gain weight quickly in the first month or so; after that your body will adjust to the new intake and "burn" those 7800 calories without turning it all to fat. I met plenty of skinny people who tried to gain weight by increasing their intake to 5k, and than when they stopped gaining weight they decreased it back to normal and ended up losing more weight; In the end they had to continue with the 5k intake just so they won't lose weight.
Back on topic of modern soldiers. Some people have the misconcepiton that once you join the army you spend the next deacde doing push ups 24/7. obviously that's not true. Boot camp and bacsic training do have intense physical training to bring you up to military standards; but after your first year, except for daily excercises, fitness in no longer the focus. There's more focus on skill than raw power (that's why most soldiers you meet in ME and IRL look more like shepard and less like vega...). In modern combat you're suppose to shoot the enemy not lifting him over your head. In my unit noone can deny that we were in peak shape, but although none of us could realy be considered "fat" (I was fat before joining up and lost 20kg) the majority of soldiers in the unit didn't have washboard abs or bulging muscles.

Medieval soldiers. Your average knight had a what you would call "condensed" build. They were usually short, with 6ft giants being a rarity. All the soliders were in amazing shape, even the archers; a longbowmen could easily lift 80kg with his main hand, and an average knight Vs knight combat was an hour long ordeal where the loser succumbed not due to injury but simple fatigue. They weren't "ripped" or "shredded", though they were obviously very muscular. Knights (and archers) were given extra rations compared to the rest of the sodiers, so maintaining their body fat ratio wasn't a problem.

[RandomSyhn]

Generally to ba ripped, you need to get yourself down to about 2.5% body fat. The average person has about 13-17. It is extremely difficult to get a low body fat percentage unless you are undergoing high physcial activity and a low fat diet. Which if you are training intensly I wouldn't reccommend it. Even competitive body builders don't have well defined muscles all the time. Often they diet and dehydrate before a competition to get that look were you can see every muscle. practically speaking it takes a lot of maitnence to be the perfect physical specimein. So much so that it is unlikely our game heros even have the time to keep up with that maitnence. Solmanian was right that it also has a lot to do with how your body adjusts to the intake.

On the other hand I agree with the OP, I'd like to have my heroine with a little meat on her bones. I used to play rugby and you could always tell which of the other girls was going to kick your ass in the ruck, but they still looked feminine and pretty. It wouldn't be impractical to have that sort of physique implying that our heroine could seriously kick ass.

[Solmanian]

I don't understand what people want from Aveline. As far as I can tell, she has the same body model as the she-hawke (hawkess? femhawke?). It's not like she's she-hulk.

[Steppenwolf]

Solmanian wrote...

SheplooX2 wrote...

the average sedentary male is easily stronger than an athletic woman. most women that are into sports dont really focus on gaining body mass and are relatively small to begin with. healthier however...

That just not true .

It really is. Even when I was comically out of shape after getting pretty fat after going through chemo I was still stronger than my girlfriend, who was a total gym-rat.

[HurricaneGinger]

Solmanian wrote...

I don't understand what people want from Aveline. As far as I can tell, she has the same body model as the she-hawke (hawkess? femhawke?). It's not like she's she-hulk.

More...I mean a lot more muscle definition on her arms.

And I wouldn't mind a protagonist a bit more toned, I suppose. FemShep didn't have enough definition in my opinion, and neither did FemHawke. Please keep in mind I'm not asking for, like...heh...Fable 2 definition...

[Adanu]

Women can't get as much musclemass as men can, and the models reflect that.

Find something else to whine about, feminist.

[David7204]

Solmanian wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Yeah uh get back to me when you have pictures of soldier's that are as heavily trained as an N7 graduate would be, or a sword swinging soldier. These athletic builds are all fine and good but they are for specific sports. Given the caloric intake that the Mass Effect Universe claims a soldier has people might want to rethink exactly how Shepard would look. Also how has the changes in the human body progressed in all that time? If you can have somebody with Miranda's curves I'm guessing it hasn't changed much. LOL!

OK, about modern soldiers. First off, the Mass effect codex saying soldiers caloric intake being 3000 is off, way off. Atleast for soldiers from active combat units. From personel experience I can tell you that military doctors recommend 7800+ calories, triple that of a regular joe from the street (again, only for combat units). It may seem alot, but compare to the 10k+ of olympic athletes. Now you may think "wow, how come they don't get fat with so much calories?". It's actualy simple. Alot of people when going on a diet fail to factor the human body amazing ability to adept. If you start consuming 7800 caloriues a day (without excercise), than you will gain weight quickly in the first month or so; after that your body will adjust to the new intake and "burn" those 7800 calories without turning it all to fat. I met plenty of skinny people who tried to gain weight by increasing their intake to 5k, and than when they stopped gaining weight they decreased it back to normal and ended up losing more weight; In the end they had to continue with the 5k intake just so they won't lose weight.
Back on topic of modern soldiers. Some people have the misconcepiton that once you join the army you spend the next deacde doing push ups 24/7. obviously that's not true. Boot camp and bacsic training do have intense physical training to bring you up to military standards; but after your first year, except for daily excercises, fitness in no longer the focus. There's more focus on skill than raw power (that's why most soldiers you meet in ME and IRL look more like shepard and less like vega...). In modern combat you're suppose to shoot the enemy not lifting him over your head. In my unit noone can deny that we were in peak shape, but although none of us could realy be considered "fat" (I was fat before joining up and lost 20kg) the majority of soldiers in the unit didn't have washboard abs or bulging muscles.

Medieval soldiers. Your average knight had a what you would call "condensed" build. They were usually short, with 6ft giants being a rarity. All the soliders were in amazing shape, even the archers; a longbowmen could easily lift 80kg with his main hand, and an average knight Vs knight combat was an hour long ordeal where the loser succumbed not due to injury but simple fatigue. They weren't "ripped" or "shredded", though they were obviously very muscular. Knights (and archers) were given extra rations compared to the rest of the sodiers, so maintaining their body fat ratio wasn't a problem.

Dear God, this is perhaps the biggest load of garbage I ever read in my life.

[Fredward]

Are we talking body building buff or corded muscles buff?

[Oberkaiser]

Solmanian wrote...

OK, about modern soldiers. First off, the Mass effect codex saying soldiers caloric intake being 3000 is off, way off. Atleast for soldiers from active combat units. From personel experience I can tell you that military doctors recommend 7800+ calories, triple that of a regular joe from the street (again, only for combat units). It may seem alot, but compare to the 10k+ of olympic athletes. Now you may think "wow, how come they don't get fat with so much calories?". It's actualy simple. Alot of people when going on a diet fail to factor the human body amazing ability to adept. If you start consuming 7800 caloriues a day (without excercise), than you will gain weight quickly in the first month or so; after that your body will adjust to the new intake and "burn" those 7800 calories without turning it all to fat. I met plenty of skinny people who tried to gain weight by increasing their intake to 5k, and than when they stopped gaining weight they decreased it back to normal and ended up losing more weight; In the end they had to continue with the 5k intake just so they won't lose weight. 
Back on topic of modern soldiers. Some people have the misconcepiton that once you join the army you spend the next deacde doing push ups 24/7. obviously that's not true. Boot camp and bacsic training do have intense physical training to bring you up to military standards; but after your first year, except for daily excercises, fitness in no longer the focus. There's more focus on skill than raw power (that's why most soldiers you meet in ME and IRL look more like shepard and less like vega...). In modern combat you're suppose to shoot the enemy not lifting him over your head. In my unit noone can deny that we were in peak shape, but although none of us could realy be considered "fat" (I was fat before joining up and lost 20kg) the majority of soldiers in the unit didn't have washboard abs or bulging muscles.

Medieval soldiers. Your average knight had a what you would call "condensed" build. They were usually short, with 6ft giants being a rarity. All the soliders were in amazing shape, even the archers; a longbowmen could easily lift 80kg with his main hand, and an average knight Vs knight combat was an hour long ordeal where the loser succumbed not due to injury but simple fatigue. They weren't "ripped" or "shredded", though they were obviously very muscular. Knights (and archers) were given extra rations compared to the rest of the sodiers, so maintaining their body fat ratio wasn't a problem.

This is just too hilarious not to save forever.

Modifié par Oberkaiser, 24 mars 2013 - 08:45 .

[David7204]

Now I know that I can eat 8,000 Calories a day and sit on my bum as long as I do it for a month straight.

Modifié par David7204, 24 mars 2013 - 08:47 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Sigourney Weaver as Ripley in the Alien series. She's strong. She's tough. She's bad-ass. She's got an athletic bod without being buff.

Still, I think a slider for both genders would be good. Not something as drastic as the body type range in Dragon's Dogma, but letting us choose between a rail thin character and somebody who is heavily muscular would be fine. Even an option to play a character with a chunky and muscular physique would be a good option to have as a slider option would be cool.

Plus, Shepard, male or female right after the prologue to Mass Effect 2 has cybernetic implants up the wazoo, so it really doesn't matter if the female SHepard has "noodle arms".

[David7204]

Letting players choose how skinny or muscular their character is will screw up a whole lot of animations. I'm fairly sure that's off the table. Games like Skyrim can get away with it since, frankly, the animations are not very good.

Modifié par David7204, 24 mars 2013 - 09:23 .

[KainD]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Oh boy, where's Kain.

Right here. 

Yes I am totally for more buff females. Not only that but I am also for less buff males! 
But of course the optimum has been named already multiple times - sliders. 

I know it sounds crazy, but women can actually have well defined muscles, be strong, AND be sexy and appealing:





Also I can make the same argument for some of the people that are trying to rationalyze something - it's a fantasy. Women in fantasy can have better muscles than an avarage real life athlete. 

Modifié par KainD, 24 mars 2013 - 09:37 .

[Mystic dream]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Let's keep the sociopolitical rhetoric out of the discussion, please. We are still talking about a videogame here.

Check out this article, which features images from Schatz and Ornstein's "The Athlete," a visual comparison of male and female athletes from various disciplines. Very different body types, but all are competitive athletes. Some have strong muscle definition, and some do not, and some of the distance runners look positively skeletal.

Sliders for body type could work, but remember that in BioWare games, the characters will be featured in many different cutscenes and dialogues, which need to accommodate every possible size variation. If you have a very short character, for example, you couldn't use the same stage setup or camera angle as you would for a very tall character. If you have a very broad character, you would need the conversation stage set up so that he or she wouldn't block anything important in the scene.

You would also have to be concerned with your animation rigs and whether they would scale up or down properly. A combat move made by a svelte, petite character may look awkward or unrealistic when made by a broad, muscular character, and vice versa.

And while, yes, some people like to do random things with their character appearances (making the ugliest character they can, for example, or hitting the extremes of the various sliders for outrageous combinations), the vast majority of players want a character that either looks good/heroic or best matches their own image of the character they want to play. That means making all of the possible slider positions look good, and in as many combinations as possible. Like any feature where players are asking for more options, that takes a lot of work, not just in development but in testing.

I have a very limited knowledge of this sort of thing but could this not be achieved by just simply replacing the texture of the body? That way you don't really need to alter the bodyshape in any form, as long as the textures have more refined muscle mass drawn into them.

[David7204]

That 'optimum' doesn't very well at all for games with intensive player animations.

[KainD]

David7204 wrote...

That 'optimum' doesn't very well at all for games with intensive player animations.

If sliders don't work, then I say we keep the difference between male and female buffness level to a bare natural minimum, 15-20%, not like the ME3 Shepard which is all 80-90.

[KainD]

Mystic dream wrote...]

I have a very limited knowledge of this sort of thing but could this not be achieved by just simply replacing the texture of the body? That way you don't really need to alter the bodyshape in any form, as long as the textures have more refined muscle mass drawn into them.

And this too. You can play around with shadows, and make the body look different and better defined. Abs for example are completely made like that. 

Modifié par KainD, 24 mars 2013 - 09:41 .

[Adanu]

David7204 wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Yeah uh get back to me when you have pictures of soldier's that are as heavily trained as an N7 graduate would be, or a sword swinging soldier. These athletic builds are all fine and good but they are for specific sports. Given the caloric intake that the Mass Effect Universe claims a soldier has people might want to rethink exactly how Shepard would look. Also how has the changes in the human body progressed in all that time? If you can have somebody with Miranda's curves I'm guessing it hasn't changed much. LOL!

OK, about modern soldiers. First off, the Mass effect codex saying soldiers caloric intake being 3000 is off, way off. Atleast for soldiers from active combat units. From personel experience I can tell you that military doctors recommend 7800+ calories, triple that of a regular joe from the street (again, only for combat units). It may seem alot, but compare to the 10k+ of olympic athletes. Now you may think "wow, how come they don't get fat with so much calories?". It's actualy simple. Alot of people when going on a diet fail to factor the human body amazing ability to adept. If you start consuming 7800 caloriues a day (without excercise), than you will gain weight quickly in the first month or so; after that your body will adjust to the new intake and "burn" those 7800 calories without turning it all to fat. I met plenty of skinny people who tried to gain weight by increasing their intake to 5k, and than when they stopped gaining weight they decreased it back to normal and ended up losing more weight; In the end they had to continue with the 5k intake just so they won't lose weight.
Back on topic of modern soldiers. Some people have the misconcepiton that once you join the army you spend the next deacde doing push ups 24/7. obviously that's not true. Boot camp and bacsic training do have intense physical training to bring you up to military standards; but after your first year, except for daily excercises, fitness in no longer the focus. There's more focus on skill than raw power (that's why most soldiers you meet in ME and IRL look more like shepard and less like vega...). In modern combat you're suppose to shoot the enemy not lifting him over your head. In my unit noone can deny that we were in peak shape, but although none of us could realy be considered "fat" (I was fat before joining up and lost 20kg) the majority of soldiers in the unit didn't have washboard abs or bulging muscles.

Medieval soldiers. Your average knight had a what you would call "condensed" build. They were usually short, with 6ft giants being a rarity. All the soliders were in amazing shape, even the archers; a longbowmen could easily lift 80kg with his main hand, and an average knight Vs knight combat was an hour long ordeal where the loser succumbed not due to injury but simple fatigue. They weren't "ripped" or "shredded", though they were obviously very muscular. Knights (and archers) were given extra rations compared to the rest of the sodiers, so maintaining their body fat ratio wasn't a problem.

Dear God, this is perhaps the biggest load of garbage I ever read in my life.

Dear God, the ignorance of some posters in relation to actual realities of caloric intake for combat units is amazing.

If you're wondering, I'm talking about you, David.

[Bfler]

This thread is hilarious.
A normal woman will never get such muscles like the athletes on some of the pictures here without help. And the women on that pictures only get them with help of weight gainers and/or anabolic drugs.

[iOnlySignIn]

Since my thread was locked, I'll just put this here.

[David7204]

Adanu wrote...

Dear God, the ignorance of some posters in relation to actual realities of caloric intake for combat units is amazing.

If you're wondering, I'm talking about you, David.

Tell me, did you simply miss these brilliant points, or are you just stupid? 

- Your body will adjust to 8,000 Calories with no exercise after a month and you won't get fat
- All medieval soldiers were in "amazing shape"
- Medieval archers could "easily lift" 180 pounds in one hand
- Average 'knight-vs-knight' combat lasted over an hour

Can you tell me what a Calorie is without looking on Wikipedia first? 

Modifié par David7204, 24 mars 2013 - 01:17 .

[Sejborg]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Since my thread was locked, I'll just put this here.

Damn those girls are scary. I wouldn't like to meet them in a dark alley. 

[Adanu]

David7204 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Dear God, the ignorance of some posters in relation to actual realities of caloric intake for combat units is amazing.

If you're wondering, I'm talking about you, David.

Tell me, did you simply miss these brilliant points, or are you just stupid? 

- Your body will adjust to 8,000 Calories with no exercise after a month and you won't get fat
- All medieval soldiers were in "amazing shape"
- Medieval archers could "easily lift" 180 pounds in one hand
- Average 'knight-vs-knight' combat lasted over an hour

Can you tell me what a Calorie is without looking on Wikipedia first? 

Are you a history buff?

[Lennard Testarossa]

KainD wrote...
Also I can make the same argument for some of the people that are trying to rationalyze something - it's a fantasy. Women in fantasy can have better muscles than an avarage real life athlete.

They have to have stronger muscles if the DA universe is supposed to make sense. Female warriors seem to be equal to male warriors in DA. Many of the strongest warriors we've seen so far were female. If human biology was the same in Thedas, it seems highly unlikely that this would be the case.

Making female warriors have some more muscle definition sems like a nice idea. But it should be a reflection of general fitness like the picture you posted, not of being good at a specific sport, such as the broad-shouldered swimmers posted as a reference here are.

Then again, as muscles don't really seem to work the same way in Thedas, it isn't even necessary for them to be buff. Having far less muscle mass doesn't seem to mean being weaker, after all.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 24 mars 2013 - 03:48 .