648 réponses à ce sujet

[kobayashi-maru]

Was reading various things about how the ending was created and have commented a bit on it, but it lead me to having a weird thought. If those that hated the ending - myself included - had taken a different position could it have altered what occured?

What I mean by that is not the retake movement or the developers attitudes but simply a change in how we handled it. It seems pretty clear from the evidence that Bioware ran out of time to implement the ending they had in mind - according to the charts, unused dialogue on disc - so what if instead of going Nuclear on Bioware we had instead went for a more 'Let Bioware make the ending they planned' movement on EA. More positive and would have maybe lead to a better give and take. Now I'm not saying EA is the devil as some people think, they are a business, but maybe by being more positive Bioware could have been given the chance to fix the ending like in there original concept.

I'm not justifying everything the developers said pre release or how the fans got treated but maybe if given them the chance the original Artistic vision for the entire end game could have been completed and released along side Citadel DLC as free download. Given the extra time they could have brought back the war asset cut scenes etc and given the game a better send off and with ME4 in development, changed the ending to allow a more fluid sequel (not direct but set in same Universe) to occur.

[KiwiQuiche]

...what we got WAS the ending they had in mind- Casey seemed to think Mac's late-night scribbles, including the "speculations from everyone" was a genius plan, hence the nonsensical, confusing crap we got.

EDIT:

"Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally,
with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written
that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation,
where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch
of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey
talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you
the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you
don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't
need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we
intentionally left those out"


Casey on after Mass Effect 3
"Whatever we do would likely happen before or during the events of Mass Effect 3, not after"

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 23 mars 2013 - 12:15 .

[kobayashi-maru]

Was there not a chart and some cut dialogue which showed they ran out of time, scrapped pretty much everything then ran with the stuff shown in the crazy 'speculations' note for sake of time?

[M Hedonist]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...what we got WAS the ending they had in mind- Casey seemed to think Mac's late-night scribbles, including the "speculations from everyone" was a genius plan, hence the nonsensical, confusing crap we got.

EDIT:

I love the "But why did he have to die?" without a proper answer. Not even the devs know why. Or "How do they feel?" - probably just wrote that out as a side thought and didn't bother to really think through what they felt like.
God, this is like something written by a person that was either very, very stupid or very, very drunk. Or both.

[KiwiQuiche]

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE EDGY



But seriously, how the hell could they not know that maybe ramming a crapload of speculations and unanswered and new questions in the conclusion of a trilogy would be a stupid thing to do?

[Zazzerka]

I really want to believe that thing is photoshopped.

[NeonFlux117]

what's intresting about the scribbling is that we get.

Bomb- sacrafice self
Reaper- take control

But there is no bomb in final endings. So.... What was Mac alluding to. Does he mean the cerberus bomb on tuchanka and how that demonstrated sacrifice!??!??


What's odd about this piece of paper is the whole "Shepard Alive" in big bold words. It's like purposely there.

Then the "Speculation from Everyone". What's up with that???


is that really what a writer would jot down???

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 23 mars 2013 - 12:42 .

[in it for the lolz]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

what's intresting about the scribbling is that we get.

Bomb- sacrafice self
Reaper- take control

But there is no bomb in final endings. So.... What was Mac alluding to. Does he mean the cerberus bomb on tuchanka and how that demonstrated sacrifice!??!??


What's odd about this piece of paper is the whole "Shepard Alive" in big bold words. It's like purposely there.

Then the "Speculation from Everyone". What's up with that???


is that really what a writer would jot down???

The bomb bit is Destroy, Reaper bit is Control and Hybrid is well you know... THAT ending.

[Applepie_Svk]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...what we got WAS the ending they had in mind- Casey seemed to think Mac's late-night scribbles, including the "speculations from everyone" was a genius plan, hence the nonsensical, confusing crap we got.

EDIT:

"Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally,
with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written
that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation,
where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch
of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey
talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you
the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you
don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't
need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we
intentionally left those out"


Casey on after Mass Effect 3
"Whatever we do would likely happen before or during the events of Mass Effect 3, not after"

High level ? are u even sirius ? The memes about your ending are far more sirius then your three colors and nosense spewed by Catalyst.



Lot of people are not interested in prequel... what would be the point ? Playing for Krogand and end up punished by Genophage ? Or what playin for Turian which whole point would be the planting of genophage ? O.o
Playin for geth which only purpose would be higher killcount of abadoned Quarians on Rannoch after the rebelion ? Sidequel? bwahaha... sure....


Not really interested Casey, people want to move forward with story and not backward, but I do understand why you don´t want to continue - because that nonsense at the end of game threw ball behind the fence and now you don´t know how to take it back and you will never take that ball back - not without A - retcon or B - theory proved to be true.

As far as I know ME was always RPG even if ME3 is just a very poor imitation of its predecessors, but whole RPG genre was always about some sort of freedom with story progression while prequel would be pre-defined narrative with some key events which were described by previously estabilished narrative, and who is interested into this when lot of people still looking on your ending as on the abomination which killed their interest in franchise.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 23 mars 2013 - 01:11 .

[MB957]

from what I experienced, at the beginning, when it was clear that the endings were disliked by many, the fanbase mood was confusion.

it did start out fairly nice towards bioware, asking for clarification. also, many felt bioware was trolling its fanbase, and had a big twist up their sleeve.

it began to get ugly when that note about speculation came out, and bioware praised that fail of an ending, and gave the big "up yours" EC to the fabase.

then it went all out crazy!

[essarr71]

MB957 wrote...

from what I experienced, at the beginning, when it was clear that the endings were disliked by many, the fanbase mood was confusion.

it did start out fairly nice towards bioware, asking for clarification. also, many felt bioware was trolling its fanbase, and had a big twist up their sleeve.

it began to get ugly when that note about speculation came out, and bioware praised that fail of an ending, and gave the big "up yours" EC to the fabase.

then it went all out crazy!

I think my favorite part was when that one Bioware employee tweeted that the "entire game was an ending".. like we're a bunch of idiots.

OP:  The fanbase never made any mistakes.  We're not the one's responsible.

[NeonFlux117]

in it for the lolz wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

what's intresting about the scribbling is that we get.

Bomb- sacrafice self
Reaper- take control

But there is no bomb in final endings. So.... What was Mac alluding to. Does he mean the cerberus bomb on tuchanka and how that demonstrated sacrifice!??!??


What's odd about this piece of paper is the whole "Shepard Alive" in big bold words. It's like purposely there.

Then the "Speculation from Everyone". What's up with that???


is that really what a writer would jot down???

The bomb bit is Destroy, Reaper bit is Control and Hybrid is well you know... THAT ending.

ahh, that makes since. Well..... I guess about as much since as Mac Walters can make, lol. 

[kobayashi-maru]

I'm not knocking retake I know it was reason for EC. But read this note ages ago and thought it was a mad scrambled together sending because of the time constraints. Even in EC the difference between what's on note are obvious and guessing from some of it, would make more sense.

It's even more ambitious reading note again. Unsure of whether destroy ending - bomb - would have looked same or if 'they say bomb' means Shepard orders fleet to destroy it.

So am now officially more confused and no answers incoming. Mike Gamble stated in recent tweet how they won't answer any questions because the game speaks for itself. Can't find the tweet anymore but thats essentially what he said.

[NeonFlux117]

kobayashi-maru wrote...

I'm not knocking retake I know it was reason for EC. But read this note ages ago and thought it was a mad scrambled together sending because of the time constraints. Even in EC the difference between what's on note are obvious and guessing from some of it, would make more sense.

It's even more ambitious reading note again. Unsure of whether destroy ending - bomb - would have looked same or if 'they say bomb' means Shepard orders fleet to destroy it.

So am now officially more confused and no answers incoming. Mike Gamble stated in recent tweet how they won't answer any questions because the game speaks for itself. Can't find the tweet anymore but thats essentially what he said.

welcome to the club homeslice, lol. Everybody be clueless. No one will ever know what went on in super mac and overlord hudson's brains. It's truly one of the great enigma's of the world. 

[Applepie_Svk]

MB957 wrote...

from what I experienced, at the beginning, when it was clear that the endings were disliked by many, the fanbase mood was confusion.

it did start out fairly nice towards bioware, asking for clarification. also, many felt bioware was trolling its fanbase, and had a big twist up their sleeve.

it began to get ugly when that note about speculation came out, and bioware praised that fail of an ending, and gave the big "up yours" EC to the fabase.

then it went all out crazy!

The problem is that they were nitpicking only what was good in their eyes, therefore fanbase wants clarification and answers and not that fanbase wants to remake whole last 1,5 hours of game, even after the release of EC they had to retcon thru multiple ways their endings just to "clarify". 

For example, If we were assuming that Catalyst said truth about Control and Synthesis then it made a sense back then that Reapers would fix or rebuild relay network in the OC, but not for destroy - destroy was simply said galactic darkage because whole 3 games we were fed with  "relay network is beyound our comprehension" but it doesn´t matter anymore because now we know how to rebuild relays for some "reasons."

Or destruction of all technology, again if we were assuming that Catalyst was honest then all endings killed all the users of technology,/biotics, Quarians, Volus, patient with implants/ but it has to be retconed again because of "reasons".

My favourite reason was that writers have no idea what they were doing...

essarr71 wrote...

I think my favorite part was when that one Bioware employee tweeted that the "entire game was an ending".. like we're a bunch of idiots.

OP:  The fanbase never made any mistakes.  We're not the one's responsible.

It was Merizan I think, when I heard this nonsence for first time I spilled the soda all over the display.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 23 mars 2013 - 01:26 .

[in it for the lolz]

essarr71 wrote...

MB957 wrote...

from what I experienced, at the beginning, when it was clear that the endings were disliked by many, the fanbase mood was confusion.

it did start out fairly nice towards bioware, asking for clarification. also, many felt bioware was trolling its fanbase, and had a big twist up their sleeve.

it began to get ugly when that note about speculation came out, and bioware praised that fail of an ending, and gave the big "up yours" EC to the fabase.

then it went all out crazy!

I think my favorite part was when that one Bioware employee tweeted that the "entire game was an ending".. like we're a bunch of idiots.

OP:  The fanbase never made any mistakes.  We're not the one's responsible.

That employee is kind of right, because personaly, I don't see the next ME game selling well at all. Not after the whole ending thing.

[NeonFlux117]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...what we got WAS the ending they had in mind- Casey seemed to think Mac's late-night scribbles, including the "speculations from everyone" was a genius plan, hence the nonsensical, confusing crap we got.

EDIT:

"Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally,
with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written
that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation,
where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch
of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey
talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you
the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you
don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't
need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we
intentionally left those out"


Casey on after Mass Effect 3
"Whatever we do would likely happen before or during the events of Mass Effect 3, not after"

High level ? are u even sirius ? The memes about your ending are far more sirius then your three colors and nosense spewed by Catalyst.



Lot of people are not interested in prequel... what would be the point ? Playing for Krogand and end up punished by Genophage ? Or what playin for Turian which whole point would be the planting of genophage ? O.o
Playin for geth which only purpose would be higher killcount of abadoned Quarians on Rannoch after the rebelion ? Sidequel? bwahaha... sure....


Not really interested Casey, people want to move forward with story and not backward, but I do understand why you don´t want to continue - because that nonsense at the end of game threw ball behind the fence and now you don´t know how to take it back and you will never take that ball back - not without A - retcon or B - theory proved to be true.

As far as I know ME was always RPG even if ME3 is just a very poor imitation of its predecessors, but whole RPG genre was always about some sort of freedom with story progression while prequel would be pre-defined narrative with some key events which were described by previously estabilished narrative, and who is interested into this when lot of people still looking on your ending as on the abomination which killed their interest in franchise.

So. Much. Win.

[Applepie_Svk]

in it for the lolz wrote...

That employee is kind of right, because personaly, I don't see the next ME game selling well at all. Not after the whole ending thing.

I would like to know how many coppies were returned right after the release when backlash starts... I think it was Amazon which came with this few days after the release that they are refunding whole ME3 for almost full price.

Sauruz wrote...


I love the "But why did he have to die?" without a proper answer. Not even the devs know why. Or "How do they feel?" - probably just wrote that out as a side thought and didn't bother to really think through what they felt like.
God, this is like something written by a person that was either very, very stupid or very, very drunk. Or both.

Now I ma playing Far Cry 3 and your answer lies somewhere in that cave filled with those toxic shrooms which causing hallucinations.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 23 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[NeonFlux117]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

in it for the lolz wrote...

That employee is kind of right, because personaly, I don't see the next ME game selling well at all. Not after the whole ending thing.

I would like to know how many coppies were returned right after the release when backlash starts... I think it was Amazon which came with this few days after the release that they are refunding whole ME3 for almost full price.

One of my friends is an employee at gamestop and he said that around the middle of march and the end of june they got so many ME3 trade ins that they had to put a lot of them in their OWN storage area in the back. I laughed. hard. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 23 mars 2013 - 01:34 .

[Reorte]

I wouldn't read too much into the scribbled note. At the brainstorming for ideas stage all sorts of scribblings were probably produced, just throw down any idea no matter how daft it seems and see what sticks. It doesn't necessarily imply that anything on it was exactly the intention of the final result although some of it clearly made it through to the end.

[Applepie_Svk]

BioWare : There was no mistake, only the harvest...

That´s pretty much summ the ME3.

[Toxic Waste]

When I was younger I got Wille E. Coyote tattooed on my leg. Why? As a reminder...........

When you plan out something in this manner you have a tendency to run right smack into a canyon wall with nothing under your feet.

[archangel1996]

We made mistakes because of BW's attitude
One year later and they didn't address properly this issue
I would pay to see the selling of the DLCs, sure as hell after Leviathan there is a big drop, maybe CItadel DLC made something good but not as well as SB
I am sorry for the saga, because it deserved better, but now it's useless going on
I hope BW had fun for all this year, cuz at the launch of ME4 they will not, and maybe even at the launch of DA:3

[Xamufam]

This was posted on Penny Arcade forum

I have nothing to do with the ending beyond a) having argued
successfully a long time ago that we needed a chance to say goodbye to
our squad, having argued successfully that Cortez shouldn't
automatically die in that shuttle crash, and c) having written Tali's
goodbye bit, as well as a couple of the holo-goodbyes for people I wrote
(Mordin, Kasumi, Jack, etc). 

No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely
the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going
through draft after draft. 

And honestly, it kind of shows. 

Every other mission in the game had to be held up to the rest of the
writing team, and the writing team then picked it apart and made
suggestions and pointed out the parts that made no sense. This mission?
Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d 

And again, it shows. 

If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as: 

Galactic Alliances 

Friends 

Organics versus Synthetics 

In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did
get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced
from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one
turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to
obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness. The best missions in our game
are the ones in which the gameplay and the narrative reinforce each
other. The end of the Genophage campaign exemplifies that for me --
every line of dialog is showing you both sides of the krogan, be they
horrible brutes or proud warriors; the art shows both their bombed-out
wasteland and the beautiful world they once had and could have again;
the combat shows the terror of the Reapers as well as a blatant reminder
of the rachni, which threatened the galaxy and had to be stopped by the
krogan last time. Every line of code in that mission is on target with
the overall message. 

The endgame doesn't have that. I wanted to see banshees attacking you,
and then have asari gunships zoom in and blow them away. I wanted to
see a wave of rachni ravagers come around a corner only to be met by a
wall of krogan roaring a battle cry. Here's the horror the Reapers
inflicted upon each race, and here's the army that you, Commander
Shepard, made out of every race in the galaxy to fight them. 

I personally thought that the Illusive Man conversation was about
twice as long as it needed to be -- something that I've been told in my
peer reviews of my missions and made edits on, but again, this is a
conversation no writer but the lead ever saw until it was already
recorded. I did love Anderson's goodbye. 

For me, Anderson's goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the
Catalyst just... You have to understand. Casey is really smart and
really analytical. And the problem is that when he's not checked, he
will assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate
an almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn't hate it,
but I didn't love it. 

And then, just to be a dick... what was SUPPOSED to happen was that,
say you picked "Destroy the Reapers". When you did that, the system was
SUPPOSED to look at your score, and then you'd show a cutscene of Earth
that was either: 

a) Very high score: Earth obviously damaged, but woo victory 

Medium score: Earth takes a bunch of damage from the Crucible
activation. Like dropping a bomb on an already war-ravaged city. Uh,
well, maybe not LIKE that as much as, uh, THAT. 

c) Low score: Earth is a cinderblock, all life on it completely wiped out 

I have NO IDEA why these different cutscenes aren't in there. As far
as I know, they were never cut. Maybe they were cut for budget reasons
at the last minute. I don't know. But holy crap, yeah, I can see how
incredibly disappointing it'd be to hear of all the different ending
possibilities and have it break down to "which color is stuff glowing?"
Or maybe they ARE in, but they're too subtle to really see obvious
differences, and again, that's... yeah. 

Okay, that's a lot to have written for something that's gonna go away in an hour. 

I still teared up at the ending myself, but really, I was tearing up
for the quick flashbacks to old friends and the death of Anderson. I
wasn't tearing up over making a choice that, as it turned out, didn't
have enough cutscene differentiation on it. 

And to be clear, I don't even really wish Shepard had gotten a
ride-off-into-sunset ending. I was honestly okay with Shepard
sacrificing himself. I just expected it to be for something with more
obvious differentiation, and a stronger tie to the core themes -- all
three of them.

He said something similar on an unofficial Q&A
thing that confirm this
i.imgur.com/W2gwS.jpg

It was posted on a well known, and well established as the writer's
account, in the same style as his usual posts. Suddenly all evidence is
deleted, and the lead developer is doing damage control. Yeah a hacker
did it, they hacked his account, wrote just like him and posted with
insight no random hater would possess.

Modifié par Troxa, 23 mars 2013 - 03:55 .