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[dani1138]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

... content in promotional videos.

Wow. That was incredibly misleading. Pity they didn't show longer outcomes of that particular "choice", so that everyone could see that the outcome is exactly the same. Ugh... There's no excuse for that kind of blatant dishonesty.

[ScriptBabe]

In Exile wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

Yes, RedBeardJim. A new element -- like a new antagonist that had never even been hinted at before the final ten minutes.

Or a conflict the player thought that they resolved, which (IMO), is even worse. The organic/inorganic plotline was a theme in ME1 - and you could see it in several sidequests, where AI did seem to be anathema to organic life (and the reapers were ostensibly AI). Especially if that conflict was actually a consequence of what the main antagonists did - no just in the game, but the lore. 

But ME2, with the way it constructed the Geth/Quarian dichotomy further and especially with the "peace" ending in ME3, made the plotline seem nonsensical. 

I confess when I was suddenly confronted by the Catalyst and the circular logic I literally yelled at the screen -- "Have you not noticed that mucking big Geth fleet that is out there helping us kick your Reapers asses?"  And let's pretend this was a novel.  If suddenly someone turned up to offer you choices that are at best disturbing and at worst horrific would you not assume it as some final attempt to trick you?  What you're expecting is  a nice twist where the writer will have the hero see through the obsfucation and find the real solution.  I kept waiting for that real solution and instead there was the crash, and the old man, and when it was all over I felt drained, confused and, yes, sad because I had spent a lot of hours in this amazing universe and these fascinating characters and it all felt for naught.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 29 mars 2013 - 05:56 .

[ScriptBabe]

I was trying to quote ZLurps message without having it be too long but his attributrion vanished.  So I've edited to give credit where due.

There are couple of other things that aren't disussed that often but in my opinion are worth a mention.

When Karpyshyn and L'Etoile worked on ME1, they had very different opinions about what kind of place it would be. Karpyshyn view of the future was very idealistic, I think a bit like Trek and some older sci-fi works. L'Etoile's view of the future was opposite to Karpyshyn's. His view was dystopian world with huge class distinction, corruption and racism.

I don't know how they worked it out, but we know the result. ME1 established the universe very well, from very the exotic Citadel to Noveria where we are in middle of cyper punkish setting, to Zhu's hope where among other things we get to see a bit life of colonists and on top of that we encounter barracs and equipment and some data logs which gives us picture of how everyday Jane and Joe are trying to make their living.

If ME1 had classic sci-fi feeling (with it's fantastic art direction, musical score with few other things that expanded the borders of world building in games at that time) ME2 went to more "cyber punkish" direction, especially with Omega and Illum, even though ME2 Citadel is also much darker place than in ME1. We also get to visit locations like ruins of ruins of old Quarian colony and Quarian fleet, places players wanted so see after only hearing them in ME1, etc.
All this world building contributes to player experience a lot, to the point where it's even another mask to how detached the main enemy, the Collectors are from players. There is just so much more to experience in universe.

[/quote]

Really interesting background, thank you for sharing that.  As most of you have gathered I have really enjoyed Drew's work, including his novels, and I simply love the Mass Effect universe.  

There is such a sense of accomplishment when you realize that despite the differences you have all these races -- embodied by your companions -- working to craft a future against something that at its core is essentially nihlistic.  And as someone else pointed out this is a tale of heroism and friendship.  Those should have been the themes at the end.  I think they are equally as worthy as some grand philisophical discussion about forcing evolution.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 29 mars 2013 - 05:52 .

[AlanC9]

ZLurps wrote...
Then, Derelict Reaper mission was supposed to end differently. Players were supposed to get to have a conversation with it and learn it's name and story. The whole writing team was unanimous that it should be in game, but someone who was "way above their pay grade" overruled them so it was cut. I guess perhaps one point, a possibility, where to continue Reaper plot in ME3 was lost in the process.

Maybe they didn't like what that conversation implied about Reapers. Any idea what the Derelict Reaper would have said if that conversation had stayed in?

[ScriptBabe]

I just watched that promotional video. Wow, that is more then a bit disingenuous.

[AlanC9]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I confess when I was suddenly confronted by the Catalyst and the circular logic I literally yelled at the screen -- "Have you not noticed that mucking big Geth fleet that is out there helping us kick your Reapers asses?"  And let's pretend this was a novel.  If suddenly someone turned up to offer you choices that are at best disturbing and at worst horrific would you not assume it as some final attempt to trick you?  What you're expecting is  a nice twist where the writer will have the hero see through the obsfucation and find the real solution.

I wasn't expecting that in this particular case, and ME3 being a game had nothing to do with it. Actually, I thought something like what we got was likely. The Reaper cycle had always struck me as being wildly irrational; ME2 made this worse, not better, since now the Reapers were dependent on organics but relying on this horribly inefficient system of cycles to get organics. So a ridiculous AI logic fault at the bottom of everything struck me as fairly probable.

The only other hypothesis I ever liked is that the organics we know are the deer of the galaxy. To deer it looks like humans are taking a great deal of trouble to hunt deer for food. But we don't hunt deer because we need food. We hunt deer because it's fun to get our meat that way. And the Reapers make war on organics to get their Reaper goo because war is fun. The Reapers could have a Goa'uld-like operation in the parts of the galaxy where the known relay network doesn't go, and that's where they get their serious breeding of organics done.

This would mean that Harbinger wants Shepard so he can mount his stuffed corpse over his mantelpiece as a trophy, or whatever the Reaper equivalent is. Then all the other Reapers could come over for a beer and reminisce about the cycle where that idiot Sovereign got himself killed.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 mars 2013 - 06:23 .

[In Exile]

ScriptBabe wrote...
I confess when I was suddenly confronted by the Catalyst and the circular logic I literally yelled at the screen -- "Have you not noticed that mucking big Geth fleet that is out there helping us kick your Reapers asses?"  

What bothers me most about the reasoning is the absurdity of "organic life" as being something that has any meaning. Technically, intestinal fauna that we have is "organic life" so the Catalyst could "preserve" organic life by erading any organism that evolves beyond unicellular. 

Legion's thematic journey was very much about what it means to be alive and what it means to be a person, and that's usually a theme that underlies sci-fi stories focused on organic vs. machine. It's a chance for us to explore what it is that makes us human, by having a category of "thing" that has some of our traits but not others. 

And let's pretend this was a novel.  If suddenly someone turned up to offer you choices that are at best disturbing and at worst horrific would you not assume it as some final attempt to trick you?

Honestly, it wasn't even the choices for me. It was the absurdity of the idea justifying the Reapers. They exterminate billions in the most horrifying and inhuman manner possible, commiting atrocities that make rank up their with some of our worst war criminals ever. 

That's not to say that a writer should be limited from exploring that theme, and even from positing that it may be justified in some case - but if that's the story you want to tell, that has to be your entire story. You can't portray the greatest scale of inhuman slaughter and degredation imaginable and then have a 5 second conversation about how it's totally cool because AIs are bad, forever. 

AlanC9 wrote...
I wasn't expecting that in this particular case, and ME3 being a game had nothing to do with it. Actually, I thought something like what we got was likely. The Reaper cycle had always struck me as being wildly irrational; ME2 made this worse, not better, since now the Reapers were dependent on organics but relying on this horribly inefficient system of cycles to get organics. So a ridiculous AI logic fault at the bottom of everything struck me as fairly probable.

Creating  a sensible justification for genocide is not easy. The dark energy plot was stupid, but it was at least B-movie sensible. 

[dani1138]

Eh, I always preferred their motives being unknowable. Look at BSG and the Cylons' much-vaunted "plan" - it turns out they didn't have one. Suddenly, the huge, unstoppable force of the the first season were transformed into a bunch of children mucking around with things they didn't understand.

Giving the Reapers a central intelligence that controls them all like puppets - regardless of the reason for why - is inevitably going to de-fang them. So much for all of Sovereign and Harbinger's gloating and threats - they're just pathetic puppets now, as much a victim of the cycles as the organics they're exterminating. To me, that's de-fanging them far more than a conventional victory scenario ever could have done.

Modifié par dani1138, 29 mars 2013 - 06:31 .

[ScriptBabe]

Alan, you have just made my day! The idea that the reapers are hunters, kicking back with some brewskis, and talking about that last hunt while Shepard's glass eyes gaze down from over the mantel. It at least explains Harbinger's obsession with Shepard. The commander was the fabled 20 point buck. And now, chuckling, I go off to work.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

Creating  a sensible justification for genocide is not easy. The dark energy plot was stupid, but it was at least B-movie sensible. 

It's sensible if the Reapers are right that this is the way, and they've been the good guys all along. If they weren't right about that, then the DE plot is a subtype of crazy AI logic mistake. If Shepard's cycle could fix the problem, then a previous cycle could have too, and all those 50,000 year intervals were a colossal waste of time.

Sometimes I wish I could pop over to the parallel universe where Bio went with that ending.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 mars 2013 - 06:38 .

[ScriptBabe]

dani1138 wrote...

Eh, I always preferred their motives being unknowable. Look at BSG and the Cylons' much-vaunted "plan" - it turns out they didn't have one. Suddenly, the huge, unstoppable force of the the first season were transformed into a bunch of children mucking around with things they didn't understand.

Giving the Reapers a central intelligence that controls them all like puppets - regardless of the reason for why - is inevitably going to de-fang them. So much for all of Sovereign and Harbinger's gloating and threats - they're just pathetic puppets now, as much a victim of the cycles as the organics they're exterminating. To me, that's de-fanging them far more than a conventional victory scenario ever could have done.

It's why I have no interest in playing Leviathan.  We have a saying in Hollywood -- "Never play the backstory."  By giving us the Reaper's backstory and then the annoying catalyst they made them "small".

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 29 mars 2013 - 06:36 .

[ScriptBabe]

The Cylon plan, near as I could figure, was having sex and making babies. Why they had to kill the humans to do that was... baffling.

And no, I haven't gone to work because I need my hero to do something terribly, terribly clever and his creator is having trouble being terribly terribly creative right now. *sigh*. Heading off to pace and tear at my hair.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 29 mars 2013 - 07:00 .

[ZLurps]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I was trying to quote ZLurps message without having it be too long but his attributrion vanished.  So I've edited to give credit where due.

Zlurps wrote...
There are couple of other things that aren't disussed that often but in my opinion are worth a mention.

When Karpyshyn and L'Etoile worked on ME1, they had very different opinions about what kind of place it would be. Karpyshyn view of the future was very idealistic, I think a bit like Trek and some older sci-fi works. L'Etoile's view of the future was opposite to Karpyshyn's. His view was dystopian world with huge class distinction, corruption and racism.

I don't know how they worked it out, but we know the result. ME1 established the universe very well, from very the exotic Citadel to Noveria where we are in middle of cyper punkish setting, to Zhu's hope where among other things we get to see a bit life of colonists and on top of that we encounter barracs and equipment and some data logs which gives us picture of how everyday Jane and Joe are trying to make their living.

If ME1 had classic sci-fi feeling (with it's fantastic art direction, musical score with few other things that expanded the borders of world building in games at that time) ME2 went to more "cyber punkish" direction, especially with Omega and Illum, even though ME2 Citadel is also much darker place than in ME1. We also get to visit locations like ruins of ruins of old Quarian colony and Quarian fleet, places players wanted so see after only hearing them in ME1, etc.
All this world building contributes to player experience a lot, to the point where it's even another mask to how detached the main enemy, the Collectors are from players. There is just so much more to experience in universe.

Really interesting background, thank you for sharing that.  As most of you have gathered I have really enjoyed Drew's work, including his novels, and I simply love the Mass Effect universe.  

There is such a sense of accomplishment when you realize that despite the differences you have all these races -- embodied by your companions -- working to craft a future against something that at its core is essentially nihlistic.  And as someone else pointed out this is a tale of heroism and friendship.  Those should have been the themes at the end.  I think they are equally as worthy as some grand philisophical discussion about forcing evolution.

Indeed. We were many on these forums who wondered how BW is going to deal with Reapers. I toyed with scenarios where where galactic races were buying time for Shepard, who searches for ways to build super weapon, have diplomatic missions to form alliances and investigate politicians who are behaving oddly and so on. Not that different what we got actually but then rest of it went differently.

One very charming aspect of ME series was what you pointed out, "despite the differences you have all these races -- embodied by your companions -- working to craft a future against something that at its core is essentially nihlistic." and I saw huge potential there when absolute need for alliance was also in the picture.

So I imagined Geth, who doesn't need oxygen, well, anything organic race needs, repairing battle scarred ships of the Alliance, Asari or Turian fleets on emergency space dry docs. Quarians offering their engineering skills to further enhance survivability of ships and maybe adopting science ships of different races in their fleets, allowing on going developing of counter measures, sharing research via QeC, but keeping them safe on routes and places only Quarians know. Alliance, Asari and Turian fleets taking the front lines. Not for conventional victory but to buy time for Shepard.

For solution I imagine something happening, like homage for ME1, Shepard finds ancient space ship, maybe Prothean, didn't really matter, but we would have these magninificent yet, alien setting there and sense of wonder would be that homage to ME1. Then they find something, key to activate the Citadel relay and make a trip to it's counter part in the Dark Space where the solution is found, or a mysterious formula that when researched would allow temporarily overloading Reaper shields. They would still lose miserably in conventional fight, but surprisingly Reapers would retreat, they agenda to preserve organic species being compromised when they start losing ships.

Oh boy, was I naive or what. Anyway, it's often said that BW wrote themselves into corner but I don't really see it. Challencing situation for sure, but creating a graphics for space station costs the same as creating graphics for planet and story goes like writers decide it goes. Don't know what to think really.

Drew sure was good, but I have read quite a bit of what L'Etoile visioned and I think dynamic between him and Drew was very important. Drew was the lead and understood value of L'Etoile's visions who not only contribute a lot for creating the universe, also created character like Ashley, who still is one the best written video game characters I have ever seen and contributed to lot to that feeling I got I was playing ME1, really, a video game an adult can play?

Modifié par ZLurps, 29 mars 2013 - 07:04 .

[Iakus]

ScriptBabe wrote...

They Cylon plan, near as I could figure, was having sex and making babies. Why they had to kill the humans to do that was... baffling.

Interestingly enough, after ME2, I was wondering the same thing about the Reapers 

[ZLurps]

AlanC9 wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Then, Derelict Reaper mission was supposed to end differently. Players were supposed to get to have a conversation with it and learn it's name and story. The whole writing team was unanimous that it should be in game, but someone who was "way above their pay grade" overruled them so it was cut. I guess perhaps one point, a possibility, where to continue Reaper plot in ME3 was lost in the process.

Maybe they didn't like what that conversation implied about Reapers. Any idea what the Derelict Reaper would have said if that conversation had stayed in?

Writers were unanimous, they all agreed that it should be in game. One individual outside of writing team over ruled them. One person was standing on a brake.

[ScriptBabe]

ZLurps -- interesting the solution you thought might happen. In the story I wrote (crazy, I know, that's how much the game got under my skin. And it will get posted. I just had to put my attention elsewhere) I use EDI and scanning the Keepers to buy the Alliance breathing space in that final battle. I tried to keep some of the ending as established because I didn't have time to craft an entire new ending -- and I sort of wanted Shepard an emotional wreck -- I love to torture characters. God help me if any of mine ever form a union But I wanted the alliances and the friendships to matter and the different skills that each species brought to bear to matter in the final victory.

[Iakus]

ZLurps wrote...

Indeed. We were many on these forums who wondered how BW is going to deal with Reapers. I toyed with scenarios where where galactic races were buying time for Shepard, who searches for ways to build super weapon, have diplomatic missions to form alliances and investigate politicians who are behaving oddly and so on. Not that different what we got actually but then rest of it went differently.

One very charming aspect of ME series was what you pointed out, "despite the differences you have all these races -- embodied by your
companions -- working to craft a future against something that at its
core is essentially nihlistic." and I saw huge potential there when absolute need for alliance was also in the picture.

So I imagined Geth, who doesn't need oxygen, well, anything organic race needs, repairing battle scarred ships of the Alliance, Asari or Turian fleets on emergency space dry docs. Quarians offering their engineering skills to further enhance survivability of ships and maybe adopting science ships of different races in their fleets, allowing on going developing of counter measures, sharing research via QeC, but keeping them safe on routes and places only Quarians know. Alliance, Asari and Turian fleets taking the front lines. Not for conventional victory but to buy time for Shepard.

For solution I imagine something happening, like homage for ME1, Shepard finds ancient space ship, maybe Prothean, didn't really matter, but we would have these magninificent yet, alien setting there and sense of wonder would be that homage to ME1. Then they find something, key to activate the Citadel relay and make a trip to it's counter part in the Dark Space where the solution is found, or a mysterious formula that when researched would allow temporarily overloading Reaper shields. They would still lose miserably in conventional fight, but surprisingly Reapers would retreat, they agenda to preserve organic species being compromised when they start losing ships.

Oh boy, was I naive or what. Anyway, it's often said that BW wrote themselves into corner but I don't really see it. Challencing situation for sure, but creating a graphics for space station costs the same as creating graphics for planet and story goes like writers decide it goes. Don't know what to think really.

Drew sure was good, but I have read quite a bit of what L'Etoile visioned and I think dynamic between him and Drew was very important. Drew was the lead and understood value of L'Etoile's visions who not only contribute a lot for creating the universe, also created character like Ashley, who still is one the best written video game characters I have ever seen and contributed to lot to that feeling I got I was playing ME1, really, a video game an adult can play?

I had envisioned exploring past battles with the Reapers, finding out what weapons other races used against the Reapers, then improving on them with current technology.  Things like the big honking space cannon that created the Klendagon Rift.  Perhaps one could be remade and put on a get superstructure to make a Death Star like superdreadnaught.  Or the "Beings of Light" could have been a defensive tool against Reaper weapons that could be mounted on ships (like the drone spheres those Ancient chairs deployed in the Stargate series).  Unite the galaxy, both past and present, to kick the Reapers out.  No one choice, no one technology, would determine the outcome.  And most importantly, it would be possible to win with honor.

Modifié par iakus, 29 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[ZLurps]

ScriptBabe wrote...

ZLurps -- interesting the solution you thought might happen. In the story I wrote (crazy, I know, that's how much the game got under my skin. And it will get posted. I just had to put my attention elsewhere) I use EDI and scanning the Keepers to buy the Alliance breathing space in that final battle. I tried to keep some of the ending as established because I didn't have time to craft an entire new ending -- and I sort of wanted Shepard an emotional wreck -- I love to torture characters. God help me if any of mine ever form a union But I wanted the alliances and the friendships to matter and the different skills that each species brought to bear to matter in the final victory.

It was really all just something I made up among many others when we were anticipating ME3, just way to kill time. Now you know Hollywood, there are people who are writing like three shows simultaneously and not all of those are necessarily soaps.

I think I read about your idea to solve the situation earlier and I'm curious to see how it will turn out. I'm writing something for MEHEM, came up with something really weird, messed up beyond all recognition. The best thing is, that even it's existing element, there was no way to make it work in universe but...go fubar. It's weird, it's creepy but it should work but now I wonder if I scared person who is supposed to review away...

Modifié par ZLurps, 29 mars 2013 - 07:22 .

[ScriptBabe]

Yeah, winning with honor. I'm so good with that idea.

[ZLurps]

iakus wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
...snip...

I had envisioned exploring past battles with the Reapers, finding out what weapons other races used against the Reapers, then improving on them with current technology.  Things like the big honking space cannon that created the Klendagon Rift.  Perhaps one could be remade and put on a get superstructure to make a Death Star like superdreadnaught.  Or the "Beings of Light" could have been a defensive tool against Reaper weapons that could be mounted on ships (like the drone spheres those Ancient chairs deployed in the Stargate series).  Unite the galaxy, both past and present, to kick the Reapers out.  No one choice, no one technology, would determine the outcome.  And most importantly, it would be possible to win with honor.

Did you post them? I recall arguing about reverse engineering that "Reaper killer" weapon. The big problem with it being that against Reapers you may only get one shot with it. But yeah, there were lot of these going on forums back then.

Must say, it's been jarring me for a quite sometime regarding Geth. When I was toying with my idea, it was very obivious to me that every race in the universe, well, excluding Reapers, had some unique talent and it was important to work together wihout sacrifing that aspect of them, because that was what made them great.

[dani1138]

ZLurps wrote...

For solution I imagine something happening, like homage for ME1, Shepard finds ancient space ship, maybe Prothean, didn't really matter, but we would have these magninificent yet, alien setting there and sense of wonder would be that homage to ME1. Then they find something, key to activate the Citadel relay and make a trip to it's counter part in the Dark Space where the solution is found, or a mysterious formula that when researched would allow temporarily overloading Reaper shields. They would still lose miserably in conventional fight, but surprisingly Reapers would retreat, they agenda to preserve organic species being compromised when they start losing ships.

I had a similar thought once upon a time. The Reapers seemed so unstoppable that I remember being a little surprised when the first ME3 trailer hit and showed an all-out Reaper invasion happening. How the heck where we supposed to get out of that one? For the longest time I figured the ending would be to do with going to Dark Space and finding a way to stop the Reapers invading in the first place for good.

In retrospect, avoiding a big dust-up with the Reapers on our own turf would have been pretty anti-climactic. But it still would have been an interesting idea to see the Citadel's Dark Space counterpart and have it play into the victory.

Anything for more creepy, intense, derelict Reaper-style gameplay.

[Iakus]

ZLurps wrote...

Did you post them? I recall arguing about reverse engineering that "Reaper killer" weapon. The big problem with it being that against Reapers you may only get one shot with it. But yeah, there were lot of these going on forums back then.

Long, long ago, back when we were all still speculating on what ME3 would be about.  I liked the idea that each race in previous cycles developed weapons to use against the Reapers, but even if they were effective, they were too weak individually to stand against the Reapers alone.  But if these things could be improved upon, and used by a united galaxy all pooling their own talents...

Must say, it's been jarring me for a quite sometime regarding Geth. When I was toying with my idea, it was very obivious to me that every race in the universe, well, excluding Reapers, had some unique talent and it was important to work together wihout sacrifing that aspect of them, because that was what made them great.

"Geth build their own future"
"Oh!  Reaper code!  Shiny!  Gimmegimmegimme!" 

[Eterna]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I just watched that promotional video. Wow, that is more then a bit disingenuous.

It was just an example. They couldn't show any of the big choices that have actual different outcomes because most of those choices are spoiler ridden. 

I mean, what if at that time they'd show us how differently the genophage arc could have worked out, that would have been ****ing stupid. 

"Geth build their own future"
"Oh!  Reaper code!  Shiny!  Gimmegimmegimme!" 

It's really more like:

"Geth build our own future"

"Geth are on the brink of extinction, if we don;t use the Reaper code we all die, no choice!"

But I get it, you like to hate things for the sake of hating. A common trend around here. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 29 mars 2013 - 07:47 .

[Iakus]

Eterna5 wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

I just watched that promotional video. Wow, that is more then a bit disingenuous.

It was just an example. They couldn't show any of the big choices that have actual different outcomes because most of those choices are spoiler ridden. 

I mean, what if at that time they'd show us how differently the genophage arc could have worked out, that would have been ****ing stupid. 

But that particular choice changed nothing.  Either way you get your gunships, and they get shot down.  There's no difference outside of what lines get delivered.

[ScriptBabe]

I really thought the choices would have more impact. I spared the Rachni queen, but apparently if you killed her you just get another queen. I had a friend who played DA: Origins as a right bastard all the way through. When she got to the final battle she had like two companions who remained with her. She had alienated everybody else. That's consequences. And that's fun.