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[ScriptBabe]

I very much enjoyed the Harry Potter books, but components of the Deathly Hallows are laid in very early. When Dumbledore gives Harry the invisibility cloak way back in one of the early books. A piece of the puzzle was present so it didn't feel contrived. I haven't read the books in a long time so I'm not sure if she mentions the wand or the stone, but she hung the cloak over the mantel. That's all I needed.

I wouldn't have minded a focus on the biotics. I always play a soldier, but for me the games were always about the team. I might just be a run and gun guy, but I'm there to put a Liara or Kaidan in position, and I'm okay to support them because -- community and unity.

[ZLurps]

This thread made me wonder how ME series, especially the first one was able to establish the following. Talimancers aside, I think it return of certain kind of idealism played a big part in that and enhanced the settings.

Can't know, but I came to think if it's because certain changes in our culture. Electronic communication, while giving us great possibilities also driving us apart. We can also be much more aware of different things than earlier.

There are futurologist whom take on transhumanism is, that it may drive us pratically tribal if we are going to be "online" all the time via implant or something. They think that instead of discussing about different opinions, say regarding politics, persons who have very opposite views stop even trying to discuss but form more or less digital "tribes" of people who share their opinions and views.

I sure hope I never need to put some implant somewhere or use device which would be always online, I enjoy that I can't be reached all the time. I can imagine even practical necessity for certain kind of tribalism some futurologists are thinking.

What ME series stood for me at least, was quite the opposite of futurologists visions and perhaps that aspect of series gave it much more appeal and impact than... anybody thought?

[David7204]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I very much enjoyed the Harry Potter books, but components of the Deathly Hallows are laid in very early. When Dumbledore gives Harry the invisibility cloak way back in one of the early books. A piece of the puzzle was present so it didn't feel contrived. I haven't read the books in a long time so I'm not sure if she mentions the wand or the stone, but she hung the cloak over the mantel. That's all I needed.

I wouldn't have minded a focus on the biotics. I always play a soldier, but for me the games were always about the team. I might just be a run and gun guy, but I'm there to put a Liara or Kaidan in position, and I'm okay to support them because -- community and unity.

Sure, but ME has plenty of elements analogous to the cloak that are kept half-shrouded in mystery and laid down early. The Citadel, the Relays, the keepers, Dark space, earlier cycles. And more could have been added. I think there'd be enough to draw some kind of nonconventional victory from while still having the player on edge at the end of ME 2.

Modifié par David7204, 30 mars 2013 - 07:06 .

[David7204]

ZLurps wrote...

This thread made me wonder how ME series, especially the first one was able to establish the following. Talimancers aside, I think it return of certain kind of idealism played a big part in that and enhanced the settings.

Can't know, but I came to think if it's because certain changes in our culture. Electronic communication, while giving us great possibilities also driving us apart. We can also be much more aware of different things than earlier.

There are futurologist whom take on transhumanism is, that it may drive us pratically tribal if we are going to be "online" all the time via implant or something. They think that instead of discussing about different opinions, say regarding politics, persons who have very opposite views stop even trying to discuss but form more or less digital "tribes" of people who share their opinions and views.

I sure hope I never need to put some implant somewhere or use device which would be always online, I enjoy that I can't be reached all the time. I can imagine even practical necessity for certain kind of tribalism some futurologists are thinking.

What ME series stood for me at least, was quite the opposite of futurologists visions and perhaps that aspect of series gave it much more appeal and impact than... anybody thought?

I wouldn't worry. I'll never happen. There's too much power in the real world and not enough online.

[ScriptBabe]

The cloak was a critical component of the deathly hallows. All three had to be in place. All the things you're mentioning were very cool, and had nothing to do with solving the problem of the Reapers. I had really thought scanning the Keepers was going to be essential in finding a way to defeat the Reapers, but it didn't matter. The two critical things that needed to be laid in were the crucible and the catalyst. They weren't. That's a problem. You can't just throw in cool stuff use it as a substitute for structure. Look at the disaster that was PROMETHEUS. That script was a terrible mess.

Now let's look at game one. Very early in the game there is a lot conversation about that "model" of the relay that's on the citadel. And it played a critical role in the ending. That's the kind of foreshadowing that is essential. It gave me that moment of "oh, yeah, you totally set that up. Good on you." My response to the end of ME3 was "whaaat?"

[Spartas Husky]

Side note here, and completely unrelated...

My best description was from Divinity 2:
"Mages are not your cliche filled fairy tale adorned pointy hat sissy wand users that you read in books... no self respecting wizard would use a wand, a child in training perhaps but a wizard?. Wizards are warriors like any others, but our weapons are the physical representation of the mind. That is not to say any wizard worth its title doesn't wear armor, for in the end what is a wizard good for if a simple bandit with a bow and arrow can kill you. True Wizards wear armor, big or small, heavy or light, we look no different than warriors or rogues,our only difference is that our weapons are not physical objects held in our hands, but rather become physical as our minds make them so"

Sorry sorry unrelated i Know but had to.

Carry on

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 30 mars 2013 - 10:12 .

[ScriptBabe]

No, it was interesting, Spartas. I confess I suck at playing mage's. I tried it once in DA, and gave up. There is something deep and primal in "fairy tales" however. I just did a post over on my blog riffing off a brilliant essay by Tolkien about the power of fairy tales, and happy endings. The man was a genius.

[David7204]

Well, it's even more complex than that. Personally, I very strongly believe in a conventional victory for a perfect playthrough. I know most of the suggestions here have been worse than horrible, but I think it could be done. I think it could be done with hard science and tactics, meaningful heroism, and choices that matter.

So the Crucible or something like it needs to exist, but there also needs to some kind of overwhelming drawback to make clear the 'perfect' ending is the best one. It'd also very much prefer it to have some kind of alternative use for in a 'perfect' ending so all the effort that went towards it wasn't a waste. Assuming that the nonconventional solution actually takes that degree of effort that the Crucible did. It might, it might not.

So an enormous amount of material needs to be established in a short time. The bulk of the story needs to be concerned with conventional victory - uniting the galaxy, fighting the Reapers, building up the fleets - but, as you said, a significant chunk of it needs to be devoted to...whatever. We've also got over a dozen squadmates that need satisfying and meaningful stories, a few plot threads to tie up, and a bunch of choices from previous games to take into account.

Modifié par David7204, 30 mars 2013 - 10:19 .

[Spartas Husky]

ScriptBabe wrote...

No, it was interesting, Spartas. I confess I suck at playing mage's. I tried it once in DA, and gave up. There is something deep and primal in "fairy tales" however. I just did a post over on my blog riffing off a brilliant essay by Tolkien about the power of fairy tales, and happy endings. The man was a genius.

I love mages... when they are not forced to dress like the cliche pointy hat wand users. Harry Potter mages are so dman powerful but look like school children in comparison to Mages from Dragon Age, or Skyrim... I mean a wand?


DA mages.... GOD now those are mages. Mostly DA2 but battles mages are awesome. NOT to say mages that use weapons, but mages who actuall wear armor, leather or anything is fine but robes?... a stray arrow and they are as good as dead.

My favorite Mage... is like the vanguard going full force in with fireballs in each hand turning enemies to cinders as his dusty old and semi rusted armor twists and deflects some blows.

If I had to pick a good mage... i'd be flemeth, she is not afraid of getting close and personal, and can rip you to shreds fomr a distance is she fancies herself to.

Gandalf!!... when he had a white robe without the crappy pointy hat. Staff on one hand, longsword in the other. now THAT is a mage.

[ScriptBabe]

I don't disagree. A convention ie happy ending should also have been available. God knows Shepard had "earned" the win. And I actually think there have been a lot of very interesting and creative suggestions that have been made. Are they fully fleshed out and perfect? No, but this is what goes on in a writer's room. You kick ideas around, blend them, examine where they will ultimately lead, revamp based on that analysis. There are some very good ideas here that could have served as a foundation. That's why I've been enjoying this thread so much.

[David7204]

Yeah? What ideas here have piqued your interest?

[ScriptBabe]

Spartas Husky wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

No, it was interesting, Spartas. I confess I suck at playing mage's. I tried it once in DA, and gave up. There is something deep and primal in "fairy tales" however. I just did a post over on my blog riffing off a brilliant essay by Tolkien about the power of fairy tales, and happy endings. The man was a genius.

I love mages... when they are not forced to dress like the cliche pointy hat wand users. Harry Potter mages are so dman powerful but look like school children in comparison to Mages from Dragon Age, or Skyrim... I mean a wand?


DA mages.... GOD now those are mages. Mostly DA2 but battles mages are awesome. NOT to say mages that use weapons, but mages who actuall wear armor, leather or anything is fine but robes?... a stray arrow and they are as good as dead.

My favorite Mage... is like the vanguard going full force in with fireballs in each hand turning enemies to cinders as his dusty old and semi rusted armor twists and deflects some blows.

If I had to pick a good mage... i'd be flemeth, she is not afraid of getting close and personal, and can rip you to shreds fomr a distance is she fancies herself to.

Gandalf!!... when he had a white robe without the crappy pointy hat. Staff on one hand, longsword in the other. now THAT is a mage.

That was one of the things I really liked about The Hobbit movie.  Gandalf kicking butt and taking names!  Yeah, my mages in both DA and DA2 just kept dying on me.  And I never got good at chaining spells together.  Give me my armor and my two swords and let me go buckle and swash!  My friend Ty Frank aka James S.A. Corey LEVIATHAN WAKES is awesome at playing mages.  He also got me hooked on Dragon Age: Origins.  Actually it was the brief stint writing a game and watching Ty play Mass Effect 1 that sent me off to buy my X-Box.

[ScriptBabe]

David, there has been a lot of interesting discussion, but I have a movie rewrite to finish, and a novel due June first. When I get a bit more time I will go back and pull out some of the ideas. There are a lot of bright people here who are passionate about Mass Effect. I think that's cool.

[Iakus]

ScriptBabe wrote...

No, it was interesting, Spartas. I confess I suck at playing mage's. I tried it once in DA, and gave up. There is something deep and primal in "fairy tales" however. I just did a post over on my blog riffing off a brilliant essay by Tolkien about the power of fairy tales, and happy endings. The man was a genius.

Yes! 'wish-fulfilment dreams' we spin to cheat
our timid hearts and ugly Fact defeat!
Whence came the wish, and whence the power to dream,
or some things fair and others ugly deem?
All wishes are not idle, nor in vain
fulfilment we devise -- for pain is pain,
not for itself to be desired, but ill;
or else to strive or to subdue the will
alike were graceless; and of Evil this
alone is deadly certain: Evil is.

From  J. R. R. Tolkien's Mythopoeia 

[Spartas Husky]

...cna u explain i'm confused never big on poetry, Like rhyme sbut never get it. Is that still on mages or are we back on character development and lore?

[Reorte]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I don't disagree. A convention ie happy ending should also have been available. God knows Shepard had "earned" the win.

Indeed, and I get a bit annoyed at people who say otherwise - they seem to think that there's something worthwhile in loss and misery for its own sake and not because in some situations it might be a fitting and natural result of the events in a story. It fails here because the events unfolding are too big to somehow require an individual to throw his or her life away for it but for the sake of argument let's assume that it might be somehow plausible.

I've said this numerous times and I'll say it again - losses hit harder when they're the result of your actions (and triumphs are consequently more satisfying for the same reason). Games have the potential that no other storytelling medium has for exploiting that, so every conceivable result should be catered for, ideally. That's obviously not possible but a good selection need to be, with some convincingly harder to achieve than others. Then the loss when you screw up, loss of all the hopes for the future for your LI and so on can really punch you in the gut because you weren't good enough - YOU, the player, not just winding up dead because the script said so no matter what you do.

Also conversely negative results annoy because they're forced on you, and scripted victories feel cheap.

[chemiclord]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I don't disagree. A convention ie happy ending should also have been available. God knows Shepard had "earned" the win.

Okay... let me ask you... why?

I really dislike this sort of argument... that you "deserve" or "earned" something.  Why?  Does life have a scorekeeper?  That'd be news to me.  

Who decides what Shepard (or the player) "earned?"  Hate to break it to you... but life really doesn't care one whit what you think you "earned."  And it certainly wouldn't care about what Shepard "earned", either.

This is drifting into the realism vs. escapism argument though... and we've already established a massive impasse there.

Modifié par chemiclord, 30 mars 2013 - 11:58 .

[David7204]

Reorte wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

I don't disagree. A convention ie happy ending should also have been available. God knows Shepard had "earned" the win.

Indeed, and I get a bit annoyed at people who say otherwise - they seem to think that there's something worthwhile in loss and misery for its own sake and not because in some situations it might be a fitting and natural result of the events in a story. It fails here because the events unfolding are too big to somehow require an individual to throw his or her life away for it but for the sake of argument let's assume that it might be somehow plausible.

I've said this numerous times and I'll say it again - losses hit harder when they're the result of your actions (and triumphs are consequently more satisfying for the same reason). Games have the potential that no other storytelling medium has for exploiting that, so every conceivable result should be catered for, ideally. That's obviously not possible but a good selection need to be, with some convincingly harder to achieve than others. Then the loss when you screw up, loss of all the hopes for the future for your LI and so on can really punch you in the gut because you weren't good enough - YOU, the player, not just winding up dead because the script said so no matter what you do.

Also conversely negative results annoy because they're forced on you, and scripted victories feel cheap.

I'd be tough, though, to make things perfect. There's a lot of problems I can forsee that I have no idea how to solve.

[Spartas Husky]

chemiclord wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

I don't disagree. A convention ie happy ending should also have been available. God knows Shepard had "earned" the win.

Okay... let me ask you... why?

I really dislike this sort of argument... that you "deserve" or "earned" something.  Why?  Does life have a scorekeeper?  That'd be news to me.  

Is there some sort of numerical boundary that once you cross it... you "earned" [X]?  Who decides what Shepard (or the player) "earned?"  Hate to break it to you... but life really doesn't care one whit what you think you "earned."  And it certainly wouldn't care about what Shepard "earned", either.

This isn't about life. Is about an unrealistic plot set in a fictional story line. And its innitial premise was founding on one of those themes. The immortal hero the survivor is the background to any of your character regardless of which he or she may be. There were many themes, and those themes are no different than a pup and behaviour training. Through adversity and impossible odds the immortal protagonist returns triumphant, scared sore and tired but he comes back alive. Time and time again that sense of immortality is rewarded for our efforts. Either because we decided the end justify the means as a renegade or because we valued our friends, either way fellowship is established, through super force or through cooperation.

This give and take is primal. You train a dog to recieve a treat when he hears a certain sound, soon enough the mere sound the mere anticipation will make the dog salivate.
The same applies to us, we dont need ot know the ending, we already know it will end with us surviving and living, although tired and burnt but we will live on. We are salivating to the foreshadowing we cannot see until the end has come but is something we get our behaviours rewarded. However like a dog, should he not get a treat when the sound comes he will simply stop to salivate and his trust in the hand that is providing the treat will vanish. He will regard the sound as nothing but sound in the future because it no longers provides that reward.

There are many themes each with the same basic premise. Effort, expectaion, reward.
Fellowship, sacrifice of those around you which weights on the hero/ine soul but makes him an ever more important saviour than he was before.
This is alluded to hacket explaining. No matter the odds the team was there, and after repeated trials and adversity, the galaxy has placed their weight behind the protagonist giving him unprecedented power, this power ultimately would destroy or save the galaxy.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 31 mars 2013 - 12:03 .

[chemiclord]

Spartas Husky wrote...

This isn't about life. Is about an unrealistic plot set in a fictional story line. And its innitial premise was founding on one of those themes. The immortal hero the survivor is the background to any of your character regardless of which he or she may be. There were many themes, and those themes are no different than a pup and behaviour training. Through adversity and impossible odds the immortal protagonist returns triumphant, scared sore and tired but he comes back alive. Time and time again that sense of immortality is rewarded for our efforts. Either because we decided the end justify the means as a renegade or because we valued our friends, either way fellowship is established, through super force or through cooperation.

This give and take is primal. You train a dog to recieve a treat when he hears a certain sound, soon enough the mere sound the mere anticipation will make the dog salivate.
The same applies to us, we dont need ot know the ending, we already know it will end with us surviving and living, although tired and burnt but we will live on. We are salivating to the foreshadowing we cannot see until the end has come but is something we get our behaviours rewarded. However like a dog, should he not get a treat when the sound comes he will simply stop to salivate and his trust in the hand that is providing the treat will vanish. He will regard the sound as nothing but sound in the future because it no longers provides that reward.

Ah hell... let's go back into this breach again.

I'm not a dog.  I never want to be.  If I ever get reduced to a "hear bell, get treat" desire when it comes to my stories, I want someone to shoot me in the head. 

Thing is... it really isn't a "realism vs. escapism" argument; as I've known plenty of "escapist" stories to be downright grim, and realistic stories to be quite uplifting.  But it's a reasonably good stereotype to run with.

"Escapist" stories are the literary equivalent of pixie sticks; good for a little endorphin rush, makes you feel good for a little while, but at the end it gives you nothing to enrich your soul.  They are the storytelling equivalent of empty calories.  I suppose there's nothing wrong with a little literary sugar now and again... but I prefer a little more meat and veggies in my storytelling diet, thank you.

I like stories that give me something that I can apply to real life, and I like telling stories that can inspire people to face the world rather than run away from it.  ME3's ending could have been a nice lesson (had it been done correctly, which it wasn't, by the way).  

You know what?  I had bit my tongue on this for a year... but why not?  Here's what I would have done:

Had I been the one to compose the ending, it would have said, "Sometimes no matter how much you do 'right', you might wind up getting **** on.  That's okay.  It's okay to feel helpless and stuck with no right option.  It happens to everyone, even our greatest heroes.  Get up, dust yourself off, and get ready to face another day, because there are people counting on you and need you to face that day with them."

I acutally kinda LIKED the concept of a "Galactic Dark Age" that Walters wanted... of Shepard and those close to him/her (minus some inevitable deaths) in a decimated galaxy without the relays that had once connected them, and facing the challenge of trying to pick the galaxy up off the ground.  

It wouldn't have been "happy", it wouldn't have been the ending many fans felt they "deserved", but it would have been an impactful one... and not entirely hopeless, either.  I depise "grimdark" as much as I despise "golden" endings.

[Iakus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

...cna u explain i'm confused never big on poetry, Like rhyme sbut never get it. Is that still on mages or are we back on character development and lore?

 I'm not big on poetry either, but I read that one in college and always liked it.  That's a section of a much longer poem called Mythopoeia, where Tolkien talks about fundamental truths in myth-making.  I thought it was appropriate for happy endings and wish fufillment talk.  

Real life already has its trials, its hardships, and general suckage.  We want to visit  worlds of wonder and hope, where we can overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles and be far more than we are right now.  We want something that reflects what's good in the world.  Not just the "gritty realism"

Happy endings are more than "rainbows and unicorns" they speak to a desire to make a better world:  not just to endure. Not to just keep something even worse from happening.  There are beautiful truths as well as ugly ones.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...
I acutally kinda LIKED the concept of a "Galactic Dark Age" that Walters wanted... of Shepard and those close to him/her (minus some inevitable deaths) in a decimated galaxy without the relays that had once connected them, and facing the challenge of trying to pick the galaxy up off the ground.  

It wouldn't have been "happy", it wouldn't have been the ending many fans felt they "deserved", but it would have been an impactful one... and not entirely hopeless, either.  I depise "grimdark" as much as I despise "golden" endings.

See, that's an ending I could have lived with.  You fought hard, you won, now it's time to pick up the pieces.  

That's exactly the sort of ending I think I deserved.  You may not like that term, but that's how I feel.

[Spartas Husky]

Ah,,, i'm analytical to a fault .

But yes life is already hard as it is, we seek idealistic planes in novels, and videos that resemble but at the same time define reality. So as long as there are rules set beforehand for our "realistic" tendencies to have anchors from which we may derive reason to the rest of the unreasonable fantasy .

But we do want gritty realism, so as long as that reality is rewarded with unrealistic in the end.

[Iakus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Ah,,, i'm analytical to a fault .

But yes life is already hard as it is, we seek idealistic planes in novels, and videos that resemble but at the same time define reality. So as long as there are rules set beforehand for our "realistic" tendencies to have anchors from which we may derive reason to the rest of the unreasonable fantasy .

But we do want gritty realism, so as long as that reality is rewarded with unrealistic in the end.

Yeah, Tolkien had somethings to say about suspension of disbelief too 

I've always been a fan of Earn Your Happy Ending.  But for that there has to be a happy ending for the protagonist to earn in th first place.

[Spartas Husky]

oh wow, nice....

Unfortunately by comparison the ending ....is so freaking damn dark. Both because of the absence of light and also in the absence of reason