648 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, no they didn't. As I said a geth colossus is not even in the same league as a Reaper. We're talking thousands or tens of thousands times more mass. It's not the same thing.

Secondly, that was gameplay. The lore in gameplay obviously has to be a lot looser than the story. For example, Shepard can stand in one place and cast warp forever in gameplay, but that's obviously canonically impossible. All games have to fudge this kind of thing in gameplay somehow. Having something happen in gameplay and have the story focus on it are two different things. Having something happen in gameplay and have the very crux of the conflict of a 120 hour adventure depend on it are titanically different things.

Thirdly, even if those two things weren't true, it wouldn't matter one bit. That would just mean you're making a mistake twice instead of once. Screwing up the science doesn't justify screwing it up later.

Shep did have upgrades of the fourth kind tho..

[ZLurps]

@ScriptBabe & general

I could swear I saw "Galactic Dark Age" mentioned in few posts, but I have too much to catch up.

I have seen people who like and people who don't like it discussing about that, hottest debates were before EC was released though.

While I can see why it can look appealing and offering new possibilities, I didn't liked it that much because it felt too heavy handed in combination with other things happening in the ending.

But I really didn't felt it was time to make ME series "A Western" and I don't know if that works with the universe that well at all. We have all those colonies and uncharted worlds in the setting already. Horizon mission in ME2 IMO even plays with that angle as game play experience.

So colony life already fits the bill and there are already lot of possibilities to create that sort of stories in MEU and I think it says somewhere that only 1% of systems in the galaxy are explored so there's much of new frontier there.

Something (there are so many things) that intrigued me since first game was depth. There is this back story for Earth born Shepard describing Shep was part of gang on Earth. In ME2 we get to see some of not so shiny side of Citadel via Mouse.

So I came to think about how gangs could work on time where nobody is using cash. There are credit chits, which I take are pretty close to credit cards, but still. What kind of stories there could be told of gang life, how those survive, how those work? We might get new, fresh angle to old cyber punk cliche, something that might be even actual.

I just don't see blowing up mass relays would gain more possibilities to universe than it would lose.

[ZLurps]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, no they didn't. As I said a geth colossus is not even in the same league as a Reaper. We're talking thousands or tens of thousands times more mass. It's not the same thing.

Secondly, that was gameplay. The lore in gameplay obviously has to be a lot looser than the story. For example, Shepard can stand in one place and cast warp forever in gameplay, but that's obviously canonically impossible. All games have to fudge this kind of thing in gameplay somehow. Having something happen in gameplay and have the story focus on it are two different things. Having something happen in gameplay and have the very crux of the conflict of a 120 hour adventure depend on it are titanically different things.

Thirdly, even if those two things weren't true, it wouldn't matter one bit. That would just mean you're making a mistake twice instead of once. Screwing up the science doesn't justify screwing it up later.

I even went and re-read my post, yeah, I was speaking about destroyrs which aren't anywhere thousands of times more mass than Geth Colossus.

And like I said, there sure is game play and lore segregation, but since very strong biotic abilities are shown in game play, in cut scenes, and also non squad member NPC's such as Tela Vasir in ME2. So this contradiction between those and codex entries and novels, that are supplementary anyway, I would cherry pick more powerful biotics.

But really, I'm going to agree to disagree here. I have so different angle to this that this isn't going anywhere.

[David7204]

It's wrong. And I can prove it.

How much do you think a Destroyer weighs?

[Reorte]

ScriptBabe wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I don't have anything of real value to add.

I am however impressed and delighted by how civil the discourse has been.

Good show all.

I second the motion, Grand Admiral.    This is the most enjoyable time I've ever spent on the BSN.  Thank you all for your insights and the discussion.

Agreed with that. There are posters on this thread who I've had unpleasant arguments in the past but I think that by remaining civil we're all at least seeing where everyone is coming from even though we don't necessarily agree.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

See... and THIS is what bothers me with your stance.

You have (at least to me) equated victory with Shepard's survival, and anything less than that is not victory. That just seems... wrong... to me.  I want to believe I have you pegged wrong, but reading your posts over the last year... I get the feeling that Shepard could save everyone, stop the reaper threat in a glorious battle... but if he were to die, the Reapers would have won to you.

That's not quite accurate.  Shepard's death and the chocies given are related problems to me, but are not identical.  Shepard's death would mean that it wasn't a total victory, but under certain circumstances, that's still acceptable. A definitive "Shepard lives" scene, should, imo, be an option based on certain choices made, but isn't needed for a "good" ending.  I was able to do an Ultimate Sacrifice ending in DAO, and felt pretty good about it (though Redeemer is still my favorite) Better than even the highest EMS endings in ME3 can make me feel.

Then there's the conditions that each choice creates.  Or as some call it:  "genocide, tyranny, and eugenics".  That is what keeps anything from feeling like a victory at all,let alone an imperfect victory.  It's what makes me feel like Shepard and Saren are now uncomfortably similar in nature.  It makes everything my Shepard said to encourage peopel to fight and makes them seem hollow.  It took all the moral stances my (paragon) Shepard took and made them seem meaningless.  THere is no good in the galaxy, there's only what evil you are willing to accept.

Modifié par iakus, 31 mars 2013 - 06:46 .

[ZLurps]

David7204 wrote...

It's wrong. And I can prove it.

How much do you think a Destroyer weighs?

As much as I write it to weight? but okay, okay, you win.


I came to think something else that would solve this for all. No more problems even with Reaper Dreadnoughts.

This is also bit more... tense, but it's okay, we are talking about defeating Reapers here.

This would eliminate the need for Crusible and Catalyst, but for this strategy to work major galactic forces need to give their forces and coordination must be perfect.

So this operation begins in say, Alliance space station, Admiral Hackett is there among other personnel. There are personnel sitting by their terminals, some of the science staff is moving nervously on background. We can hear there is lot of chatter on com channels, reports of movements of Reaper fleet.

QeC line is established between Admiral Hackett, Asari, Salarian, Turian and Quarian forces. Moment is very tense, life of all space faring races in the galaxy is at stake.

Few scientist appear near Hackett, they pass him datapad and say few things to him with faith voices before rushing back to their stations.

Finally Hackett speaks... We are ready. We see other admirals of galactic forces nod and respond that their forces are also ready.

From other vid screen we get to see a mass relay, it's moving, Alliance forces appear to be towing it toward some small planet. Hackett gives order to towing fleet which appear to gain more speed and suddenly small planet vanishes from screen.

There is a sound in Alliance operation centre "Plonk."

Suddenly faces of personnel gathering reports of the movement of Reaper fleet seem to light up. They keep their focus but suddenly they feel a bit more relaxed. Lot of information is relayed to Turian admiral.

From the screen we see this impressive Turian Admirals posture change a bit. So much is at stake, but operation like this isn't a problem for experienced soldier, orders are given to Turian fleet. After only few seconds we hear faint "plink" from coms, it came from Turian operation centre.

Situation remains tense, Asari, Alliance and Quarian forces operate at their full effectiveness. "Bink" ... "Plak" ... "Plik" sound like that follow each other in steady rhythm.

From vid screens we see small fleets operating in darkness of space, their speed must be enormous but aided via VI's they do their towing operations with 100% accuracy. Small planet comes trough one relay but very soon relay is dragged close to it and planet is sent to new spin.

In the darkness of space Reaper fleet is taking outstanding casualties. Something is hitting them with force that tears through their shields and their armour, their ships just disappear, but they soldier on.

Meanwhile the mood on every command centre is getting better. Asari admiral appears to be a bit frustrated when she hears faint "blonk" when Quarian admiral sends the planet yet again on new trajectory.

But it's all good, citizens of every planet are gathered around screens in their homes, or giant displays set in bars and clubs. There are displays also outside where people have gathered how their fate is decided in massive event of galactic table top tennis.

Bets are being made, "Who will gets the most Reapers?" "Who will get to sent planet most times?" "Will Asari admiral lose her nerves if she don't get to hit the planet soon?"

Everyone is able to handle the pressure and Reaper fleet is defeated accompanied by sounds "Plik" "Plak" "Plok" coming from com centers speakers. Poor Reapers weren't even able to figure out what the hell was hitting their fleets before their defeat. Which was Luna really, Earth rented it for the purpose, even gave discount because situation is so tricky.

Then there is lot cheering, people celebrating, drinking more than they should, having sex with almost random strangers and everybody lived happy to the end of their time, telling stories to their children how table top tennis weren't nothing to joke about but one mean sport.

[Iakus]

ScriptBabe wrote...

There was also a complete change in tone and form in those final minutes.  It was as if the writers suddenly decided they were going to impose _their_ vision on _their_ game.  But it wasn't entirely their game.  There were millions of "creators" imagining their Shepard's backstory, how life would be with their Shepard's LI, making choices between the Krogan and the Salarians, etc. etc.  Which is why being left with only (as one person rightly said) "forced suicide on the part of Shepard, and three outcomes that were functionally identical left people bewildered, angry, empty and feeling like they'd been cheated.

Yes, exactly.

It was like my Shepard became their Shepard.  Even if the agency was an illusion, that illusion was ripped away.

Modifié par iakus, 31 mars 2013 - 07:31 .

[dani1138]

Eh, the extent of biotic powers and the effort they require changes from lore (especially the Drew K. books) to gameplay to cutscenes and back again. If Jack could really take out three YMIR mechs simutaneously with one biotic blast, I'd never leave her on the Normandy and insist she leaves her kids behind to join my crusade.

iakus wrote...

Then there's the conditions that each choice creates.  Or as some call it:  "genocide, tyranny, and eugenics".  That is what keeps anything from feeling like a victory at all,let alone an imperfect victory.  It's what makes me feel like Shepard and Saren are now uncomfortably similar in nature.  It makes everything my Shepard said to encourage peopel to fight and makes them seem hollow.  It took all the moral stances my (paragon) Shepard took and made them seem meaningless.  THere is no good in the galaxy, there's only what evil you are willing to accept.

Yup, it used to be that "the ends justifies the means" was a renegade position. Post ME3, it's every Shepard's position (well, except for the Refusers), whether they like it or not.

[kobayashi-maru]

ZLurps wrote...

@ScriptBabe & general

I could swear I saw "Galactic Dark Age" mentioned in few posts, but I have too much to catch up.

I have seen people who like and people who don't like it discussing about that, hottest debates were before EC was released though.

While I can see why it can look appealing and offering new possibilities, I didn't liked it that much because it felt too heavy handed in combination with other things happening in the ending.

But I really didn't felt it was time to make ME series "A Western" and I don't know if that works with the universe that well at all. We have all those colonies and uncharted worlds in the setting already. Horizon mission in ME2 IMO even plays with that angle as game play experience.

So colony life already fits the bill and there are already lot of possibilities to create that sort of stories in MEU and I think it says somewhere that only 1% of systems in the galaxy are explored so there's much of new frontier there.

Something (there are so many things) that intrigued me since first game was depth. There is this back story for Earth born Shepard describing Shep was part of gang on Earth. In ME2 we get to see some of not so shiny side of Citadel via Mouse.

So I came to think about how gangs could work on time where nobody is using cash. There are credit chits, which I take are pretty close to credit cards, but still. What kind of stories there could be told of gang life, how those survive, how those work? We might get new, fresh angle to old cyber punk cliche, something that might be even actual.

I just don't see blowing up mass relays would gain more possibilities to universe than it would lose.

I posted how I liked the original galactic dark age storyline, but I get your point and agree with you - no ME Western style/Firefly redux. I apologise because I wasn't clear, I like idea because the universe would be the same but different, using new tech rather than Reaper based tech, Krogan would be in different place as they would most likely fair better than Asari would minus tech.

What I left out however because it was hinted in the Stargazer scene, was the fact the new game wouldn't be western like as a lot of time had passed, societies rebuilt etc, the hardships where over. The new game would be post rebuilding, I don't really care about tech changes, was mostly for how it impacted the various cultures.

Modifié par kobayashi-maru, 31 mars 2013 - 07:09 .

[TheRealJayDee]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It would be useful for the purposes of this conversation to keep in mind that not all imaginative storytelling is "fiction" in the same sense, and doesn't necessarily operate on the same exact level. This has been brought up by several people already, but the key here is the form of Mass Effect, that is not "novelistic" but rather "Epic" in the proper sense of the word. The novel is a particular form of fiction, connected to particular cultural conditions and suitable for particular kinds of inquiry, if you will. It seems that some people here are making the mistake of ascribing the functions of the novel to all storytelling without making any distinctions of genre.

Mass Effect is not properly novelistic in any case, starting with the fact that the variance in the storyline based on player choices necessarily disturbs the kind of unity of presentation that defines a novel. Certain things might or might not be true for a player of Mass Effect. In a novel, every word is in its place and cannot be moved or removed without compromising the authorial intent. An Epic, on the other hand, is not definitionally dependent on every detail playing out in the exact same way on repeated tellings.

Now, the novel form is well suited for some things, such as the examination of individual psychology, arising as it did as a part of the loosening of feudalism and the rise of bourgeois individualism. The Epic, on the other hand, is a form suited for working out issues of foundational mythology, themes that underpin cultural views of the world. Incidentally, this is a part of the reason why Mac Walters imposing his rather insipid psychologisms on Shepard in ME3 feels so intrusive. Wrong genre, dude. Please take a moment to understand what you were put in charge of writing. The player needs to fill in those parts.

So, we have the Epic. The writing of an Epic is the work of mythopoeia, as in that poem Iakus correctly brought up in this connection. It operates on a fundamentally deeper level than the individual psychology in a novel, a level that might not even be readily available to us consciously. It gets us where we dream. That is why the ending of ME3 feels so wrong. It's not supposed to be a lesson in accepting defeat and moral compromise, it is the ground of our dreams. And Mass Effect would now deny us even the dream of successful agency.

What is the value of this craven retreat for us?

Great, great post!

[TheRealJayDee]

2x post, sorry!

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 31 mars 2013 - 07:58 .

[ZLurps]

kobayashi-maru wrote...

I posted how I liked the original galactic dark age storyline, but I get your point and agree with you - no ME Western style/Firefly redux. I apologise because I wasn't clear, I like idea because the universe would be the same but different, using new tech rather than Reaper based tech, Krogan would be in different place as they would most likely fair better than Asari would minus tech.

What I left out however because it was hinted in the Stargazer scene, was the fact the new game wouldn't be western like as a lot of time had passed, societies rebuilt etc, the hardships where over. The new game would be post rebuilding, I don't really care about tech changes, was mostly for how it impacted the various cultures.

Now I get it. Tech aspect was something that bothered me in some ideas. Destroying the relays would change things, but because we need means to travel anyway, we would actually get just mini-version of ME universe. Of course there could be some political and economical scheming going on which could be exiting for players who look that sort of content. I just thought that it were mostly ended up to be abstracted to player anyway, in "mini-ME versum."

To put it other way around, ME universe offers a lot of ways for such schemes, though nothing so dramatic like Salarian doing pre-emptive strike on Krogan territory because they are afraid Krogans would come after them anyway, Turians watching from the side and then expanding their territory after Salarians and Krogans start exhausing each other, and so on.

Moving further in the future, that might work better, it would be interesting to see how different races cultures would evolve, especially Quarian and Geth relationship. Then, I don't know, that would be interesting to see even in game set maybe a decade after the events of ME3.

Modifié par ZLurps, 31 mars 2013 - 08:00 .

[ZLurps]

iakus wrote...

Then there's the conditions that each choice creates.  Or as some call it:  "genocide, tyranny, and eugenics".  That is what keeps anything from feeling like a victory at all,let alone an imperfect victory.  It's what makes me feel like Shepard and Saren are now uncomfortably similar in nature.  It makes everything my Shepard said to encourage peopel to fight and makes them seem hollow.  It took all the moral stances my (paragon) Shepard took and made them seem meaningless.  THere is no good in the galaxy, there's only what evil you are willing to accept.

Just for the sake of discussion. I thought one ideas, unless I'm making this up in my mind, of endings was indeed sacrifice of self. Even in paragon ending, Shepard sacrifices what makes him/her human and become something else. Renegade... well, I don't know if truly renegade player would care about the Geth, or EDI if rest of the life in galaxy is saved by expense of theirs. Synthesis ending, sacrifice being idealims, belief that there could be understanding and appreciation between organics and synthetics like they are.

What do you think could make something like that work? Where we can't have everything but need to weight among bad, worse and worst?

[Xamufam]

ZLurps wrote...
Mac Walters said in some interview that he had hard time with coming up with story for ME2

This is so stupid I have no word for it

ME1
Find the conduit
Discover the reaper threat
Stop Saren/Sovereign

ME2 (should have been)
Create alliances
Resolve issues between races
Find a way to stop the reapers (on Ilos) there were also beacons that had just were in me 2 nothing about the crucible in them
Upgrade fleets & weapons/mine resources
Find out why the reapers are doing what they do
Throw in the collectors
Gather information
Gather technology
Begin the construction on the weapon

ME3
Stop the reapers
Resolve issues between races
Create more alliances
Have something deeper for ME 3
End the construction of the weapon

That wasn't to hard
The base of a main plot should be easy, It's the execution that matters

Modifié par Troxa, 01 avril 2013 - 09:16 .

[Reorte]

ZLurps wrote...

What do you think could make something like that work? Where we can't have everything but need to weight among bad, worse and worst?

A series where that was the general tone from the start is the first necessity.

[Spartas Husky]

We worked for our ending ,a good writer can work every play through into its own unique ending. From the jackass bad-ass renegade to the altruistic sissy paragon to the rational Shepard in between.

All it takes are good writers... emphasize on good.

[ZLurps]

Troxa wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Mac Walters said in some interview that he had hard time with coming up with story for ME2

This is so stupid I have no word for it
ME1
Find the conduit
Discover the reaper threat
Stop Saren/Sovereign

ME2 (should have been)
Create alliances
Resolve issues between races
Find a way to stop the reapers (on Ilos) there were also beacons that had just were in me 2 nothing about the crucible in them
Upgrade fleets & weapons
Find out why the reapers are doing what they do
Throw in the collectors
Gather information
Gather technology
Begin the construction on the weapon

ME3
Stop the reapers
Resolve issues between races
Create more alliances
Have something deeper for ME 3
End the construction of the weapon

To be fair, he meant grander arch, like chasing Saren was in ME1 and decided that characters would be the focus.

[David7204]

That's an absolutely garbage plan for more reasons than I care to count.

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

That's an absolutely garbage plan for more reasons than I care to count.

ME1: Discover the problem
ME2: Work out what the solution is
ME3: Apply the solution

sounds like a perfectly sensible plan.

[Xamufam]

ZLurps wrote...

Troxa wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Mac Walters said in some interview that he had hard time with coming up with story for ME2

This is so stupid I have no word for it
ME1
Find the conduit
Discover the reaper threat
Stop Saren/Sovereign

ME2 (should have been)
Create alliances
Resolve issues between races
Find a way to stop the reapers (on Ilos) there were also beacons that had just were in me 2 nothing about the crucible in them
Upgrade fleets & weapons
Find out why the reapers are doing what they do
Throw in the collectors
Gather information
Gather technology
Begin the construction on the weapon

ME3
Stop the reapers
Resolve issues between races
Create more alliances
Have something deeper for ME 3
End the construction of the weapon

To be fair, he meant grander arch, like chasing Saren was in ME1 and decided that characters would be the focus.

He could have done that & have most of the characters relevant to the main plot, not 12 different stories
Only found Mordin to be it

& not deviate from the main plot

Modifié par Troxa, 31 mars 2013 - 09:00 .

[ZLurps]

Reorte wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

What do you think could make something like that work? Where we can't have everything but need to weight among bad, worse and worst?

A series where that was the general tone from the start is the first necessity.

What would create such tone?

I recall playing some game where in the end it turned out protagonist was fooled from the begin with, and antagonists were used him to track down all possible pockets of resistance. Everyone protagonist knew was killed before he was shot to death or something. It was cyber punk FPS and plot was pretty dark, but I still don't think anyone expected it to end like that.

Even not my main problem with ME3 isn't the ending, it still felt worse than ending of that old cyper punk fps.

I think old RPG, Arcanun had one ending where protagonist and everyone with him/her got stuck in other dimension, but I don't recall for sure if it really was like that. I just have faint memory like there were been some built up for that and that it actually worked. Anyway, IIRC it could be seen as sacrifice of freedom.

[David7204]

Reorte wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's an absolutely garbage plan for more reasons than I care to count.

ME1: Discover the problem
ME2: Work out what the solution is
ME3: Apply the solution

sounds like a perfectly sensible plan.

Despite that plan being childishly simple to the point of complete uselessness, it's actually not very sensible at all.

You can't 'work out' the solution in ME 2 and apply it in ME 3 just like that. Things cannot go according to plan. If they do, the plan becomes a spoiler.

Basic storytelling.

Not to mention that a conventional victory would require at least two solutions. Conventional, and something else.

Modifié par David7204, 31 mars 2013 - 09:04 .

[Xamufam]

David7204 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's an absolutely garbage plan for more reasons than I care to count.

ME1: Discover the problem
ME2: Work out what the solution is
ME3: Apply the solution

sounds like a perfectly sensible plan.

Despite that plan being childishly simple to the point of complete uselessness, it's actually not very sensible at all.

You can't 'work out' the solution in ME 2 and apply it in ME 3 just like that. Things cannot go according to plan. If they do, the plan becomes a spoiler.

Basic storytelling.

Yes you can if you are making a trilogy & they also said they were going to make a trilogy before me 2
Simpel is better than broken or have bo plot at all

Who said anything about Conventional
Basic storytelling

Modifié par Troxa, 31 mars 2013 - 09:08 .

[David7204]

No. You can't. It makes absolutely no difference how long the story is. It makes absolutely no difference if it's a trilogy or not. You've made it clear you have utterly no clue what you're talking about since you think that writing this kind of content is just as easy as following your little list.

Modifié par David7204, 31 mars 2013 - 09:09 .