648 réponses à ce sujet

[Xamufam]

ScriptBabe wrote...

Hmm, this is the first time I've ever seen this document, and it does rather support my feeling that somebody got a "notion" in the writer's room, and there weren't enough other people around to perhaps point out this wasn't a great notion.  When I was on TNG we had this custom called The Dumbstick.  George R.R. Martin and I still use it when we're plotting Wild Cards.  The Dumbstick gives you permission to make a completely stupid and outlandish suggestion without fear of being mocked.  Because sometimes something good can come out of one of those crazy ideas if they get adjusted and massaged.  I have a feeling there weren't other voices present to have adjusted the ending as presented.  I also think they were getting huge pressure from EA and rushed the game.  Which is a terrible shame.  So much of Mass Effect 1, 2, 3 is just brilliant.

You can read the last post at the first page one of the writers wrote it at Penny arcade forum

[ScriptBabe]

Troxa wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

Hmm, this is the first time I've ever seen this document, and it does rather support my feeling that somebody got a "notion" in the writer's room, and there weren't enough other people around to perhaps point out this wasn't a great notion.  When I was on TNG we had this custom called The Dumbstick.  George R.R. Martin and I still use it when we're plotting Wild Cards.  The Dumbstick gives you permission to make a completely stupid and outlandish suggestion without fear of being mocked.  Because sometimes something good can come out of one of those crazy ideas if they get adjusted and massaged.  I have a feeling there weren't other voices present to have adjusted the ending as presented.  I also think they were getting huge pressure from EA and rushed the game.  Which is a terrible shame.  So much of Mass Effect 1, 2, 3 is just brilliant.

You can read the last post at the first page one of the writers wrote it at Penny arcade forum

I had read the letter.  I had never seen the page of notes.  That was new to me, and, if this is real, the fact they were still asking questions as they were setting down to write the ending is not a good sign.  All of this should have been worked out well in advance.

[chemiclord]

As to the "fan mistakes":

Yes, the response was WAY overboard, and contrary to what is being claimed now, it was NOT in response to Bioware's response. There were posters spitting fiery venom March 7th demanding people lose their jobs.

That said, the people who were violently aggressively mad were, are, and will be, the distinct minority. (Note I am not saying the people displeased were the minority, merely the people who completely lost their **** over it).

But, whether right or wrong, that is what fans DO. Especially fans who have become emotionally invested for YEARS. And they lash out with raw emotion, and they KEEP lashing out. It's something as a creator you have to accept; whether they should or shouldn't is irrelevant to fact they do and they will.

So, when Bioware uses that inevitable reaction as an excuse to go silent... that DOESN'T HELP. When you let the acid-spitters and the fire-breathers run wild, you cannot feign surprise when the environment turns toxic and inflammatory. You IGNORE them, you don't RUN AWAY from them and everyone else.

[AlanC9]

Hey, can anyone tell me where this page came from in the first place?

There's a real source, right? It's not like that flowchart that turned out to be a fan project.

[Iakus]

I believe it's from The Final Hours 

Modifié par iakus, 24 mars 2013 - 06:36 .

[Applepie_Svk]

iakus wrote...

I believe it's from The Final Hours 

Mac and Hudson final thoughts : the speculations from everyone...

/but suddenly, when everyone starts to speculate and asking a questions/

...they both close the shop and left the anger and dissatisfaction flow thru fanbase.

Simply said - torch the franchise and run - 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 24 mars 2013 - 07:15 .

[NT121784]

I'll load up my pre me3 life save and choose paragon option this time.
Lol, wouldn't it be great if life were like that?

[angol fear]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, can anyone tell me where this page came from in the first place?

There's a real source, right? It's not like that flowchart that turned out to be a fan project.

It's a fake. It's a fan note. Just look at it : it's not some note made by a writer but it's a "fan" who made this. When you create something, your notes don't look like this. You put your intentions, you work on structures. Here there's nothing but anger and clichés that every hater say. Bioware knew what they wanted to do with their ending, the guy who wrote this didn't understand the basis of Mass Effect.

[CaIIisto]

The only real mistake that fans made was in assuming that BW were going to be able to deliver on the promise of the first two games. Living up to that was always going to be a tough ask. Sadly, one that BW ultimately wasn't up to.

It's unrealistic to expect BW to hold their hands up to any mistakes, that's just not going to happen, publicly at least. The real extent to which BW listened to feedback will only become apparent in future games.

[drayfish]

angol fear wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, can anyone tell me where this page came from in the first place?

There's a real source, right? It's not like that flowchart that turned out to be a fan project.

It's a fake. It's a fan note. Just look at it : it's not some note made by a writer but it's a "fan" who made this. When you create something, your notes don't look like this. You put your intentions, you work on structures. Here there's nothing but anger and clichés that every hater say. Bioware knew what they wanted to do with their ending, the guy who wrote this didn't understand the basis of Mass Effect.

No - the image is from the 'Mass Effect 3: Final Hours App', a piece of promotional material made by games columnist Geoff Knighley and released with Bioware's permission (and profit) at the time of Mass Effect 3's launch. 

You can even see a grab of this note on reviews of the app, such as here:

http://www.148apps.c...ffect-3-review/

Scoll half way down the page.


...Unless you were intentionally being ironic - in which case, I apologise.  Because yes, I too would hope that 'artists' would put a little more thought into their narrative structure than just scrawling what amounts to 'Why is this story even happening?' on a page in a last minute brainstorm.

Modifié par drayfish, 24 mars 2013 - 08:25 .

[CaIIisto]

He's right though - the author of said notes clearly doesn't understand the basis of ME.....

[Modius Prime]

Okay, before the Forum gets locked, I'm going to give my heart out.

Of course it was a minority of players that complained about the ending. Have you seen the PAX data? Only 40%-39.8% to be more precise-of ME3 players actually achieved the Long Service Medal-the achievement you get for completing all Mass Effect Games-which shows that people that didn't play the other games skewed the public opinion, which lead to Bioware believing that most were actually happy with how the finale turned out. Most people have left this forum, not because they didn't like the forum, but the fact that Bioware was cavaliering the opinion of the established fan base in favor of the new comers, who clearly had no idea how emotionally invested most of the pre-established fan base was to the Normandy crew, the universe they were immersed in, and the affects of their choices. Most of the people left on this forum are the few that still want to see change, or to oversee Biowares actions by participating in public polls, ect.

I just see ME3 as wasted potential. Can you honestly, with a completely straight face, say that the ending was justified? I feel like Bioware is putting their ego, and integrity, over the fans; the people that supported Bioware and fuel its business, which is a huge no-no. I feel like VG publishers are now favoring quantity over quality. I mean, ME3 out of all the other games in the trilogy had the MOST auto dialogue and linearity; this clearly shows that Bioware was rushed and that they couldn't polish the squad interations in the third game that were offered in both the first and the second. Almost all the conversations were like Kasumi and Zaed in ME2, which is where the squad auto-dialogue began. Everyone else in ME2 had dialogue wheels for conversing.

I don't understand why EA was rushing them, especially since the third game was supposed to be the most hyped game for 2012. If anything, the hype should have made EA postpone the game for the time that Bioware was asking for to polish their game. I feel like changing the ending would actually be beneficial to Bioware, because they already lost A LOT of their fan base. I want to remember this game for all of the beautiful moments: the times that I cried over fictional characters, the wonder of the universe, and my intimate relationship with the squadmates that we all grew to love. Now, when I think about this game, I think about the poorly executed ending. Even with Citadel DLC, I still feel like there is this empty void inside of me that will not be satiated until a better ending is provided.

I don't understand why they are developing a new ME, when clearly the fan base has spoken that they want closure, not some spin-off that we know will inevitably end with the debacle of ME3. They can't do a prequel, nor can they do a sequal. They can't do a sequal because it cannot account for the 4 decisions that players made; it would be like making 4 totally unique games, which Bioware does not have the budget for. The best thing for Bioware to do is just to RETCON Priority: Earth. I wanted to see my war assets in action; I wanted to be able to survive refusal if my EMS was high enough (I mean, we got Thanix cannons!); I wanted destroy to not kill the Geth and EDI (why would they build a machine that would kill them?!?) if my EMS was high enough. I didn't want endings like Control and Synthesis that totally went against Shepard's values (and the themes of Mass Effect). Shepard doesn't have the right to make decisions like that for the galaxy. He compares himself to a common soldier if you're paragon, and most players played paragon in ME3. What's wrong with humility, Bioware? I don't understand!

Modifié par Modius Prime, 24 mars 2013 - 09:26 .

[Maverick827]

The ME3 nerd-raging fans didn't make any mistakes. Their parents did.

[Applepie_Svk]

angol fear wrote...



It's a fake. It's a fan note. Just look at it : it's not some note made by a writer but it's a "fan" who made this. When you create something, your notes don't look like this. You put your intentions, you work on structures. Here there's nothing but anger and clichés that every hater say. Bioware knew what they wanted to do with their ending, the guy who wrote this didn't understand the basis of Mass Effect.

... delusion strong in this one...

In this case both Casey and Mac didn´t knew what they were doing... no surprise here... 


Otherwise, if you think that ME3 is the apex of their workbench - have it your way - I happy that you´re happy. But for me is ME3 nothing more then wasted potential of what it could be. Game itself start with some sort of open world - exploration, with the well written narrative /despite that it was copying few other scifi at same time/ in ME1 with lot of dialogs which were guiding you thru story and give you an insight into the world of ME, ME2 changes the narrative little bit but it was still in good way even if overall plot was baq, the coversations were still in tact and you have still some sort of freedom over your character.
But ME3 was nothing more then linear shooter game with almost no freedom over the story as much the half of pre-estabilished things were retconed in some way with whole plot build on unexplained device which creators of it as much of Reapers were hidden in paid DLC.

Still if you are going to answer then you´re doing it in vanila game thru core narrative and not by the crapload of DLCs like From Ashes and Leviathan which belongs to core of the game, this was just another proof of how much BioWare crippled their own game for financial gain. I wouldn´t changed my mind about the endings even if the Leviathan and From Ashese were already included in game but at least I wouldn´t blame BioWare from being greedy, despite the all DLC you still have recieved narrative with plotholes because you are not answering questions with raising more questions, that´s not how you´re either finishing story or finishing trilogy. BioWare has made one mistake, they thought that being ambiguous is the same thing as being unanswered.
Fate of the hero and galaxy or even the final scene might be ambiguous, but narrative has to be explained in proper way...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 24 mars 2013 - 10:15 .

[Malchat]

Maverick827: +5 Renegade 

kobayashi-maru wrote...

Was reading various things about how the ending was created and have commented a bit on it, but it lead me to having a weird thought. If those that hated the ending - myself included - had taken a different position could it have altered what occured?

I believe a different position from the mainstream gaming press could have made a difference but... "75 perfect reviews" and "gamer entitlement".

Modifié par Malchat, 24 mars 2013 - 10:06 .

[Xamufam]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

angol fear wrote...



It's a fake. It's a fan note. Just look at it : it's not some note made by a writer but it's a "fan" who made this. When you create something, your notes don't look like this. You put your intentions, you work on structures. Here there's nothing but anger and clichés that every hater say. Bioware knew what they wanted to do with their ending, the guy who wrote this didn't understand the basis of Mass Effect.

... delusion strong in this one...

In this case both Casey and Mac didn´t knew what they were doing... no surprise here... 


Otherwise, if you think that ME3 is the apex of their workbench - have it your way - I happy that you´re happy. But for me is ME3 nothing more then wasted potential of what it could be. Game itself start with some sort of open world - exploration, with the well written narrative /despite that it was copying few other scifi at same time/ in ME1 with lot of dialogs which were guiding you thru story and give you an insight into the world of ME, ME2 changes the narrative little bit but it was still in good way even if overall plot was baq, the coversations were still in tact and you have still some sort of freedom over your character.
But ME3 was nothing more then linear shooter game with almost no freedom over the story as much the half of pre-estabilished things were retconed in some way with whole plot build on unexplained device which creators of it as much of Reapers were hidden in paid DLC.

Still if you are going to answer then you´re doing it in vanila game thru core narrative and not by the crapload of DLCs like From Ashes and Leviathan which belongs to core of the game, this was just another proof of how much BioWare crippled their own game for financial gain. I wouldn´t changed my mind about the endings even if the Leviathan and From Ashese were already included in game but at least I wouldn´t blame BioWare from being greedy, despite the all DLC you still have recieved narrative with plotholes because you are not answering questions with raising more questions, that´s not how you´re either finishing story or finishing trilogy. BioWare has made one mistake, they thought that being ambiguous is the same thing as being unanswered.
Fate of the hero and galaxy or even the final scene might be ambiguous, but narrative has to be explained in proper way...

It would have made a lot more sense if they did this

[Applepie_Svk]

Troxa wrote...


It would have made a lot more sense if they did this

Yeah, that´s why I refused...

[Reorte]

drayfish wrote...

Because yes, I too would hope that 'artists' would put a little more thought into their narrative structure than just scrawling what amounts to 'Why is this story even happening?' on a page in a last minute brainstorm.

Is that what happened though? Is there any context to this note in the Final Hours app? If it's pretty much the last minute script then that's dreadful but it's the sort of thing that seems reasonable enough for scribbling down first thoughts.

[XqctaX]

Reorte wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Because yes, I too would hope that 'artists' would put a little more thought into their narrative structure than just scrawling what amounts to 'Why is this story even happening?' on a page in a last minute brainstorm.

Is that what happened though? Is there any context to this note in the Final Hours app? If it's pretty much the last minute script then that's dreadful but it's the sort of thing that seems reasonable enough for scribbling down first thoughts.

when Drew left they moved up a characterwriter that had no experience writing story = mac.
read the note again and you'll start to see the panic of a writer thats in over his head,
and openly in his notes talk about plagurising other work.

then in comes casey how wants a dark edgy emo art ending
and together they blatantly ip of other works, throw out all form of peer-review

and the result is this pseudo art of random thoughts totally dissconected from the rest of the 2.99 part of the triology.

thats what happends when you loose the mainwriter and put in two amatures
that care more about leaving there own mark on a triology-story than acually contiuing
in the footsteps of previous writer and theme/narrative of previous games.
and you know, deliver to the fans what they come to expect to get.

also lying about it pre-release is unfogivable.
"a,b,c endings."

Modifié par XqctaX, 24 mars 2013 - 11:53 .

[ZLurps]

ScriptBabe wrote...

...snip...

Hmm, this is the first time I've ever seen this document, and it does rather support my feeling that somebody got a "notion" in the writer's room, and there weren't enough other people around to perhaps point out this wasn't a great notion.  When I was on TNG we had this custom called The Dumbstick.  George R.R. Martin and I still use it when we're plotting Wild Cards.  The Dumbstick gives you permission to make a completely stupid and outlandish suggestion without fear of being mocked.  Because sometimes something good can come out of one of those crazy ideas if they get adjusted and massaged.  I have a feeling there weren't other voices present to have adjusted the ending as presented.  I also think they were getting huge pressure from EA and rushed the game.  Which is a terrible shame.  So much of Mass Effect 1, 2, 3 is just brilliant.

They knew project schedule in advance and got 3 months extension to it.

[jkflipflopDAO]

archangel1996 wrote...

We made mistakes because of BW's attitude
One year later and they didn't address properly this issue
I would pay to see the selling of the DLCs, sure as hell after Leviathan there is a big drop, maybe CItadel DLC made something good but not as well as SB
I am sorry for the saga, because it deserved better, but now it's useless going on
I hope BW had fun for all this year, cuz at the launch of ME4 they will not, and maybe even at the launch of DA:3

Killed the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs.

[ScriptBabe]

It's not entirely true that no writer/creator would make scribbled notes like the one above. I've done that myself, but at the very start of a project. Just throwing down random thoughts about the story I'm about to tell. Then I hone it. The white board or the cork board goes up. The 3x5 cards come out. Teaser, Act One, Act Two, Act Three (if it's a novel or a movie), more if it's a TV episode or pilot. The climax to the entire book or film goes down first. Then the act outs. Then I plot backwards figuring out the scenes that have to be there to carry me to those act outs and ultimately the finale. Point being for a tale this epic and magnificent they needed to know somewhere during the first game _how the players were going to ultimately defeat the Reapers_, and I don't think they did. I do have to give a shout out to Drew Karpyshyn who is just a terrific writer. He led his team brilliantly and they created a fascinating universe and characters. He also wrote some terrific Mass Effect novels. If you haven't read them they are very enjoyable, and deepen the understanding of the universe.

[SpamBot2000]

Maverick827 wrote...

The ME3 nerd-raging fans didn't make any mistakes. Their parents did.

Nice one, Ma(veri)c(k). "If U no like BW, Y U live?! Ur dad shoulda worn a condum!"

Never reported a post before, not even ones of BW worshippers fantasizing about a sequel in which you can "shoot haterz with a shotgunn!" Congrats on your outlandish wrongness.

Then again, maybe that's official BW policy in these sad final days.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 24 mars 2013 - 04:37 .

[AHadley23]

Thread needs some positivity.

I have been with Mass Effect since the beginning; multiple playthroughs, from all across the series. Between all game series ever made, Mass Effect is probably my second-favourite, behind Battlezone (only just). Even before the Extended Cut, I was satisfied with the ending. It made me stop and think. I like a game with story - indeed, I can't stand games without it - but what I like even more is a story that makes me stop and think "Hold on a second... what just happened?". The ending of ME3 did just that, and I love it for it. The Extended Cut made it even better. Of course, I would have liked a little more evidence of former choices - extra allies on the field of Priority: Earth, or extra fleets in space, but I'm not greatly bothered.

Now I can understand why people are sore about the endings, sure, it's the end of the series, the protagonist has died, and it turns out the antagonist has his outlook on life ass backwards. I understand why people were angry at the start, a year ago, but now? Now it's crossing from reasonable to ridiculous.

So, yeah, I understand where you're coming from; it wasn't a perfect ending. You could argue it was fundamentally flawed and made no sense, but I'll disagree. That isn't the point of the post. The point is that it's been a year. Can't you just accept it and move on? Surely there are better things to do than moan on a forum and pretend something might change.

[knightnblu]

Well reasoned and a good, thought provoking viewpoint with only one problem: money. Had I gotten the ME3 CE for free, I would agree with you whole heartedly. Gentle persuasion usually works well and a reasoned debate will usually suffice. You may not get what you want, but you are not hurt by not getting it. Unfortunately, when I pay my hard earned money for a product, I expect to get what I paid for.

Every human being becomes angry when they believe themselves to be cheated. The reality of the situation is irrelevant. It is only the perception that matters because that is what evokes the emotion of anger. If you have ever tried to argue a point with someone who is angry, you know how futile it is. This is because the higher reasoning functions have gone on hiatus and the lesser mind takes control. This also occurs because of fear. You get an adrenaline dump and that is the end of useful discussion because fight or flight are the only things that matter at that point.

I don't know what BioWare planned for the OE and I really don't care at this point. They had enough information to know the likely outcome if they tried to get cute with the ending. They were aware of the LOST ending debacle and knew the controversy that arose because of it. They knew that die hard fans had expectations from these very boards. They knew that people worked to earn their spending money and that folks get pissed when they don't think they received any value for their hard earned coin. In short, BioWare should have seen what was coming long before the release of ME3.

The fact that they got caught flat footed is an indicator that there is something very wrong at BioWare. They know how to write a good story, they know how to evoke emotion, they know that it isn't smart to ****** off your fans, and they know that phoning it in for a major franchise will ****** off almost everybody. The marketing for ME3 almost got BioWare in trouble for false advertising per the Better Business Bureau. So what happened? We may never know because according to at least one BioWare director they don't give a rat's furry hind end about what we think about their product, they only care what real game creators think and that's another problem.

To my knowledge, BioWare has never publicly told us what was going on between their ears and behind their walls. Rather than to stand tall and explain themselves they chose to provide the EC DLC and that will have to be enough because we aren't getting anymore. So with BioWare bunkered down, the fans drooling with rage, and the game press calling us all entitled whiners, where do you see room for reasoned debate?

I don't believe that it could have happened any other way.