648 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

chemiclord wrote...

As to the "fan mistakes":

Yes, the response was WAY overboard, and contrary to what is being claimed now, it was NOT in response to Bioware's response. There were posters spitting fiery venom March 7th demanding people lose their jobs.

That said, the people who were violently aggressively mad were, are, and will be, the distinct minority. (Note I am not saying the people displeased were the minority, merely the people who completely lost their **** over it).

But, whether right or wrong, that is what fans DO. Especially fans who have become emotionally invested for YEARS. And they lash out with raw emotion, and they KEEP lashing out. It's something as a creator you have to accept; whether they should or shouldn't is irrelevant to fact they do and they will.

So, when Bioware uses that inevitable reaction as an excuse to go silent... that DOESN'T HELP. When you let the acid-spitters and the fire-breathers run wild, you cannot feign surprise when the environment turns toxic and inflammatory. You IGNORE them, you don't RUN AWAY from them and everyone else.

The distict minority? Yes. The disctinct minority of BSN? Doubtful. If they were then the majority of BSN did nothing to stop said minority from tarring them all with the same brush.

Bioware, for good reason, went silent here as even now it's probably too toxic for them to come back and have discussions with us, but they did give us the EC. To simply ignore that and say they ran away is wrong.

[AHadley23]

There was most definitely a misstep when Casey and Mac decided they didn't need peer-review for the finale. That is where things all went wrong (bar the less-than-awe-inspiring damage control). All things considered, the ending isn't exactly *bad* per se, it's just not what some people were expecting / wanted; that's not to say it couldn't have been better. Ending a story as large as Mass Effect isn't easy and isn't something they should have tried without the entire team. No doubt if some of the more imaginative minds behind the fan theories were working at Bioware this forum would be in a decidedly different shape.

Glad to see there are still some level-headed people on BSN though

[MKfighter89]

Really all they had to do was make one ending where shep lived met with his/her crew or just even stood up out the rubble and been like "yea". I think alot of fans would have been happy, maybe not jumping for joy but at least they see their hero live. Then keep the others control and synthesis for a different feel.

[ScriptBabe]

Dragon Age: Origins did it perfectly. Plenty of choice, and you got to accomplish the task, and conclude the story as promised.

[ContinentTurtle]

I'm mostly satisfied with the ending. I was disappointed there was no real boss battle for example. And the Catalyst came out of nowhere, but I came to accept it. I have no idea which path the game could have followed otherwise. The Reapers are nigh-indestructible, especially when they're there with thousands of friends. Anyway. I chose Synthesis, because I believe everyone (except Shepard & LI) will be better of. And no, I'm not indoctrinated.

[Archonsg]

ScriptBabe wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins did it perfectly. Plenty of choice, and you got to accomplish the task, and conclude the story as promised.

Precisely.
There were *options*.

I could role play my character as I saw fit and have that role playing rewarded at the end.
For example, my Dalish elf, because he is brought up with a culture where the individual is less than the community, and because he is a noble idealist choose the Ultimate Sacrifice. Morigan's out smelled too much of being a blood magic ritual for him to be able to accept.

My female common dwarf and my Machiavellian Cousland on the other hand see *no* reason to not take Morigan's out as for one, getting Alistair to do the deed is just business, much worse happen in the slums, while my Cousland has plans to take the throne and dying isn't part of that.

The endings for my DA : Origins playthroughs are very varied and are all very satisfying, since at no point did I feel that it was at any point *not* my character making these choices.

Where ME3 failed is that at the end they took this away.
For many, the Shepard that was, in those last 10 or so moments, aren't *their* Shepards.
S/he did things, said things that many felt their Shepard wouldn't.

I have only *one* Shepard playthrough that I can be happy with, and that being my rather sociopathic Renegade Shepard.
My Paragon, Paragade and Renegon Shepards, the ones who ask themselves, how do I protect those whom I fight for, are all left out with the endings as they are.

[Clayless]

Archonsg wrote...

My Paragon, Paragade and Renegon Shepards, the ones who ask themselves, how do I protect those whom I fight for, are all left out with the endings as they are.

Control.

[Archonsg]

Robosexual wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

My Paragon, Paragade and Renegon Shepards, the ones who ask themselves, how do I protect those whom I fight for, are all left out with the endings as they are.

Control.

Not the way Bioware envisioned.
I thought about this alot and yes, had they made a paragon / renegade choice variant of control, I might have considered it, *if* they had allowed for a choice to instead of being the new space Hitler, you take control of all Reapers, wipe the Citadel of the Catalyst and its faulty programing and then fly every single Reaper into the sun.

*That* would have turned what would have been Shepard kowtowing to the Reaper overlord, accepting its ultimatum and commit an act of suicide because he was told to do so, into an act of defiance and ultimate sacrifice.

The difference, one is where you followed orders from an enemy and did as you were told, the other because *you decided on your own* how and what is needed to win a battle.

[AlanC9]

Archonsg wrote...

I thought about this alot and yes, had they made a paragon / renegade choice variant of control, I might have considered it, *if* they had allowed for a choice to instead of being the new space Hitler, you take control of all Reapers, wipe the Citadel of the Catalyst and its faulty programing and then fly every single Reaper into the sun.

*That* would have turned what would have been Shepard kowtowing to the Reaper overlord, accepting its ultimatum and commit an act of suicide because he was told to do so, into an act of defiance and ultimate sacrifice.

And a stupid waste of resources. If you can make the Reapers fly into the sun, actually making them do so is pointless.

Edit: not that I have a problem with stupid choices being in for RP purposes. I alway supported adding a Refuse option, for instance.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[ScriptBabe]

Archonsg wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins did it perfectly. Plenty of choice, and you got to accomplish the task, and conclude the story as promised.

Precisely.
There were *options*.

I could role play my character as I saw fit and have that role playing rewarded at the end.
For example, my Dalish elf, because he is brought up with a culture where the individual is less than the community, and because he is a noble idealist choose the Ultimate Sacrifice. Morigan's out smelled too much of being a blood magic ritual for him to be able to accept.

My female common dwarf and my Machiavellian Cousland on the other hand see *no* reason to not take Morigan's out as for one, getting Alistair to do the deed is just business, much worse happen in the slums, while my Cousland has plans to take the throne and dying isn't part of that.

The endings for my DA : Origins playthroughs are very varied and are all very satisfying, since at no point did I feel that it was at any point *not* my character making these choices.

Where ME3 failed is that at the end they took this away.
For many, the Shepard that was, in those last 10 or so moments, aren't *their* Shepards.
S/he did things, said things that many felt their Shepard wouldn't.

I have only *one* Shepard playthrough that I can be happy with, and that being my rather sociopathic Renegade Shepard.
My Paragon, Paragade and Renegon Shepards, the ones who ask themselves, how do I protect those whom I fight for, are all left out with the endings as they are.

Yes, I completely agree.  There is something so immersive about this new entertainment medium, and in Dragon Age my beloved Dalish elf got to make the choice he wanted.  Which was to take Morrigan's bargain and live, help Alistair rule, and prove his people had a valued place in Ferelden society.  Another friend always goes with heroic self-sacrifice because that's how he sees his character.

I'm replaying ME3 with a very analytical eye right now, and I find that so much of it is just "on rails" as we say in Hollywood.  Cut scenes play and I don't have a lot of conversation choices or input.  The end was that writ large.  

And again there was no set up.  From the very moment Duncan starts telling you about drinking darkspawn blood, and Alistair tells you about hearing the archdemon, etc. it means that when you are presented with the fact that only a Grey Warden can kill an archdemon it feels _right_.  Because it's been set up.  We really needed to have hints about the crucible and the catalyst way back in the first game for this to have any hope of working.  Also, the sudden arrival of the catalyst felt like they had rung in a new villain in the final ten minutes, and that is never going to work.  You can't suddenly tell us near the end of Lord of the Rings that Sauron wasn't actually the problem -- it's this other guy you've never heard of before.

[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

I thought about this alot and yes, had they made a paragon / renegade choice variant of control, I might have considered it, *if* they had allowed for a choice to instead of being the new space Hitler, you take control of all Reapers, wipe the Citadel of the Catalyst and its faulty programing and then fly every single Reaper into the sun.

*That* would have turned what would have been Shepard kowtowing to the Reaper overlord, accepting its ultimatum and commit an act of suicide because he was told to do so, into an act of defiance and ultimate sacrifice.

And a stupid waste of resources. If you can make the Reapers fly into the sun, actually making them do so is pointless.

Than you and I differ.

I do not see having a force that have no morals, have no qualms in killing every single being in existence, that no one can face, that can be controlled by an external entity, even me, isn't a time bomb waiting to go off.

Shepard might be controlling it today, but as easily as he took the helm, someone or something else can do so as well.
Nothing is "hack proof".

[Archonsg]

@scriptbabe

Sauron wasn't the *only* Darklord in Lord of the Rings. There was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time.
And yes, he was in the books. ;-)

[IanPolaris]

Archonsg wrote...

@scriptbabe

Sauron wasn't the *only* Darklord in Lord of the Rings. There was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time.
And yes, he was in the books. ;-)

He wasn't given a choice.  He was chained beyond the bounds of the world at the end of the first age.  Gandalf does allude to him in his warning (at the end) that although Sauron is defeated, evil is not, for even Sauron was once only a servant himself.

However, unlike ME3, it wasn't important to the story, and it was a vague allusion in the epilog and not a sudden shift in the narrative.

-Polaris

[ContinentTurtle]

Archonsg wrote...

@scriptbabe

Sauron wasn't the *only* Darklord in Lord of the Rings. There was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time.
And yes, he was in the books. ;-)

MORGOTH, THE DARK LORD AND MIGHTIEST OF THE VALAR.

[ScriptBabe]

Archonsg wrote...

@scriptbabe

Sauron wasn't the *only* Darklord in Lord of the Rings. There was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time.
And yes, he was in the books. ;-)

That's right, they do refer to an enemy of whom Sauron was only a servant, or language to that effect.  But we didn't suddenly find out that after all that Frodo and Sam had endured they hadn't actually dealt witih the threat as presented in these books.  That would have been a party foul.  

[ScriptBabe]

I love it! There are clearly a number of us who are LoTR's geeks! I read the books when I was a kid, and I'm pretty sure they're a proximate cause of me becoming a writer.  Not that I'm a fantasy writer.  I admire those who can -- like George, but it's not my interest.  Science fiction always wins out by a nose so that's what I write.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 24 mars 2013 - 07:31 .

[AlanC9]

Archonsg wrote...
I do not see having a force that have no morals, have no qualms in killing every single being in existence, that no one can face, that can be controlled by an external entity, even me, isn't a time bomb waiting to go off.

Shepard might be controlling it today, but as easily as he took the helm, someone or something else can do so as well.
Nothing is "hack proof".

OK. You've got two points here -- that the Reapers are controllable, and that they're omnipotent. (Their immorality is just a side effect of point 1)

Point 1 is easily fixed. No reason the Sheplyst has to stay on the Citadel. Move him out to dark space and even if someone puts together another Crucible, they won't know where to dock it.

Point 2 won't be true for long. Organic races will surpass Reaper capabilities in a millennium or so; they weren't that far behind them in Shepard's time.

[AlanC9]

ScriptBabe wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

@scriptbabe

Sauron wasn't the *only* Darklord in Lord of the Rings. There was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time.
And yes, he was in the books. ;-)

That's right, they do refer to an enemy of whom Sauron was only a servant, or language to that effect.  But we didn't suddenly find out that after all that Frodo and Sam had endured they hadn't actually dealt witih the threat as presented in these books.  That would have been a party foul.  

If you guys are talking about Morgoth, wasn't he thrown out of the world by the Valar at the end of the First Age?

[Archonsg]

Heh.
Can't have geeks without Middle Earth fans and love for Tolkien.

I wasn't alluding to Morgoth though.
Pippin and Merry met him. ;-)


At least I have MEHEM, personally I would prefer if MEHEM was just *one* of the possible endings, a Refusal victory, a *true* "IN YOUR FACE AI!" refusal with and without Shepard's survival would have been preferred.

But since MEHEM is the only thing available that removes the whole catalyst idiotic choices, I'll settle for that.

[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

@scriptbabe

Sauron wasn't the *only* Darklord in Lord of the Rings. There was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time.
And yes, he was in the books. ;-)

That's right, they do refer to an enemy of whom Sauron was only a servant, or language to that effect.  But we didn't suddenly find out that after all that Frodo and Sam had endured they hadn't actually dealt witih the threat as presented in these books.  That would have been a party foul.  

If you guys are talking about Morgoth, wasn't he thrown out of the world by the Valar at the end of the First Age?

Not entirely no.
In The Simarillion, we learn that Morgoth then known as Melkor weaved his own themes and variations into the music of the Ainur and thus forever marring the world and all its existence. (There's a little bit of evil inside all of us) His spirit was cast out into the void, but his presence remains.

[ScriptBabe]

If we're talking about Sauroman he was sort of a second tier villain. Rather like TIM in Mass Effect -- To bring it back on topic so the creator of this thread doesn't smack us. And again, Sauroman is mentioned early and often in Fellowship, and then the revelation he's a "bad un" at the council of Elrond so he was set up early in the trilogy. And we're back talking about foreshadowing and how it's supposed to work. Go us.

[ScriptBabe]

And I really wanted the option of a MEHEM ending among other possible choices. I will say playing this trilogy of games has engendered a number of blog posts for my website. One of them about happy endings, and how I think they get a really bad rap from critics.

[ScriptBabe]

Yeah, I really don't want to go back to work on this script based on all the stalling and posting I'm doing. Walk away from the lure of the BSN.  Going back to work.  Catch you folks later.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 24 mars 2013 - 08:07 .

[AlanC9]

Archonsg wrote...
In The Simarillion, we learn that Morgoth then known as Melkor weaved his own themes and variations into the music of the Ainur and thus forever marring the world and all its existence. (There's a little bit of evil inside all of us) His spirit was cast out into the void, but his presence remains.

Sure, but  I don't see how you get "(t)here was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time" from that. Choose?

[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...
I do not see having a force that have no morals, have no qualms in killing every single being in existence, that no one can face, that can be controlled by an external entity, even me, isn't a time bomb waiting to go off.

Shepard might be controlling it today, but as easily as he took the helm, someone or something else can do so as well.
Nothing is "hack proof".

OK. You've got two points here -- that the Reapers are controllable, and that they're omnipotent. (Their immorality is just a side effect of point 1)

Point 1 is easily fixed. No reason the Sheplyst has to stay on the Citadel. Move him out to dark space and even if someone puts together another Crucible, they won't know where to dock it.

Point 2 won't be true for long. Organic races will surpass Reaper capabilities in a millennium or so; they weren't that far behind them in Shepard's time.

You are assuming entities whether in this galaxy or no, with the ability to hack the Citadel can't find it.

Then, there is always, time needed for beings to evolve beyond Reaper abilities. who is to say that the Galaxy under the Reaper's watch, and an AI, that *isn't* Shepard with his or her human emotions and morality may allow for such.

For example.
Machine logic would dictate that the possibity for resentment of any Government holding the threat of the reapers is more then just "likely", it is *almost* a certainty.
To solve this, indoctrination.

How far Shepard AI goes down this particular slope or would it even do so it up for grabs.
The fact that this is even a possibility, that reaper tech can passively prep organics for indoctrination is just something you don't want lying around or in existence.

Then too, who is to say that before anyone is given time to evolve beyond Reaper abilities, someone/thing rather find a way to hack and take over the reapers.