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[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...
In The Simarillion, we learn that Morgoth then known as Melkor weaved his own themes and variations into the music of the Ainur and thus forever marring the world and all its existence. (There's a little bit of evil inside all of us) His spirit was cast out into the void, but his presence remains.

Sure, but  I don't see how you get "(t)here was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time" from that. Choose?

I wasn't talking about Melkor.

[AlanC9]

Archonsg wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...
In The Simarillion, we learn that Morgoth then known as Melkor weaved his own themes and variations into the music of the Ainur and thus forever marring the world and all its existence. (There's a little bit of evil inside all of us) His spirit was cast out into the void, but his presence remains.

Sure, but  I don't see how you get "(t)here was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time" from that. Choose?

I wasn't talking about Melkor.

Who, then?

[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...
In The Simarillion, we learn that Morgoth then known as Melkor weaved his own themes and variations into the music of the Ainur and thus forever marring the world and all its existence. (There's a little bit of evil inside all of us) His spirit was cast out into the void, but his presence remains.

Sure, but  I don't see how you get "(t)here was one other but he chose not to involve himself in Middle Earth's affairs at the time" from that. Choose?

I wasn't talking about Melkor.

Who, then?

Tom Bombadill
And yes, seriously.

[AlanC9]

OK, let's hear the case.

[Archonsg]

At work and typing this on the phone so... Yeah.

Anyways, Consider this, Elrond one of the most knowledgeable lore mastets of the third age doesn't know who or what Tom Bombadill is, but suspect that he is Iawain Ben-Adar, (Oldest, Fatherless), Gandalf does seem to know but is either not willing to share or can't, only telling us that the power of the Ring does not affect him nor does he care about the thing in turn.

Then we have one common thing about the entities of power in Middle Earth. They all affect the area they are in. The elves, the Auir, every being of "good" (hobbits included) bring life, light and growth in and around them. Call it a halo effect.

Consider where Bombadill lives and what surrounds his home.

You can dig around, I am not the *only* Tolkien fan to realize this, and while I am pretty sure it was not what the good professor intended (Tom being a silly Character to make his son laugh) the lore in Tolkien's works paint a very sinister picture of whom Tom Bombadill really is.

Heh.
Not really ME3 related but, ... ;-)

[Maverick827]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Nice one, Ma(veri)c(k).

Right back at you. 

"If U no like BW, Y U live?! Ur dad shoulda worn a condum!"

What's funny is that the insult isn't meant to be taken literally.  It's a "yo momma" style joke.  But even still, even in your deconstruction of an insult that's meant to be taken at face value, you still managed to be hilariously wrong.  The issue with dissenters and malcontents is not that they are dissenters and malcontents, it's how they choose to voice their opinions that makes them worthy of such an insult.

I don't care what you believe, just voice it intelligently.  A vast majority of ME3 ending critics fail to do this on a daily basis.  Hence, the insult.

Modifié par Maverick827, 24 mars 2013 - 08:56 .

[IanPolaris]

Archonsg wrote...

At work and typing this on the phone so... Yeah.

Anyways, Consider this, Elrond one of the most knowledgeable lore mastets of the third age doesn't know who or what Tom Bombadill is, but suspect that he is Iawain Ben-Adar, (Oldest, Fatherless), Gandalf does seem to know but is either not willing to share or can't, only telling us that the power of the Ring does not affect him nor does he care about the thing in turn.

Then we have one common thing about the entities of power in Middle Earth. They all affect the area they are in. The elves, the Auir, every being of "good" (hobbits included) bring life, light and growth in and around them. Call it a halo effect.

Consider where Bombadill lives and what surrounds his home.

You can dig around, I am not the *only* Tolkien fan to realize this, and while I am pretty sure it was not what the good professor intended (Tom being a silly Character to make his son laugh) the lore in Tolkien's works paint a very sinister picture of whom Tom Bombadill really is.

Heh.
Not really ME3 related but, ... ;-)

Tom Bombadil is uncatagorized.  JRR Tolkein to his dying day refused to say who or what he was, but I do know this.  He is no dark lord.  The Shadow has utterly no power or hold over his mind, and Bombadil desires to rule nothing except himself.

So I think you are off base.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The other reason you are off-base is JRR Tolkien is on record of having a hearty dislike of allegory.  That means you are not supposed to read into the lore more than he intended.  If you don't think that Tolkein intended Bombadil to be anything other than light hearted (and you just said as much), then that is the way he is to be read.  Nothing more.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 mars 2013 - 09:46 .

[Archonsg]

IanPolaris wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

At work and typing this on the phone so... Yeah.

Anyways, Consider this, Elrond one of the most knowledgeable lore mastets of the third age doesn't know who or what Tom Bombadill is, but suspect that he is Iawain Ben-Adar, (Oldest, Fatherless), Gandalf does seem to know but is either not willing to share or can't, only telling us that the power of the Ring does not affect him nor does he care about the thing in turn.

Then we have one common thing about the entities of power in Middle Earth. They all affect the area they are in. The elves, the Auir, every being of "good" (hobbits included) bring life, light and growth in and around them. Call it a halo effect.

Consider where Bombadill lives and what surrounds his home.

You can dig around, I am not the *only* Tolkien fan to realize this, and while I am pretty sure it was not what the good professor intended (Tom being a silly Character to make his son laugh) the lore in Tolkien's works paint a very sinister picture of whom Tom Bombadill really is.

Heh.
Not really ME3 related but, ... ;-)

Tom Bombadil is uncatagorized.  JRR Tolkein to his dying day refused to say who or what he was, but I do know this.  He is no dark lord.  The Shadow has utterly no power or hold over his mind, and Bombadil desires to rule nothing except himself.

So I think you are off base.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The other reason you are off-base is JRR Tolkien is on record of having a hearty dislike of allegory.  That means you are not supposed to read into the lore more than he intended.  If you don't think that Tolkein intended Bombadil to be anything other than light hearted (and you just said as much), then that is the way he is to be read.  Nothing more.

I know of Tolkien's dislike of Allegory, which was why I *did* mention what I thought he meant the character to be.

Its all just speculative fun.
Spoilsport.

[ScriptBabe]

I'm weird, but I always loved the Bombadil section. Maybe because I live in New Mexico and rain is rare I find the rain storm that keeps them there to be so peaceful. I've always thought that Goldberry is the avatar of spring, and Tom the bones of the Earth, if you will. You're analysis is fun, however, Archonsg. And again these books show us the power of endings -- The Scouring of the Shire and the Grey Havens are absolutely essential to the story, and what he was building to all along. (I keep trying to keep us on topic while we meep joyfully about Tolkien.

[edisnooM]

ContinentTurtle wrote...

MORGOTH, THE DARK LORD AND MIGHTIEST OF THE VALAR.

Minor quibble here, but I thought Manwe and Melkor were supposed to be pretty equal in terms of power. It has been a while since I read the Silmarillion, but I was pretty sure that Melkor even got less powerful as he got further into his Dark Lord doings and creations.


Re: The Bombadil Discussion

I've never been really too sure what to make of the character, though for someone who has such a small amount of time within the story he is certainly quite fascinating. One of the impressions I got from him was that he was supposed to be some sort of representative of innocence, I mean looking at Middle Earth in general everything seems tainted by corruption and evil to some extent, and not even the Shire escapes unscathed. But here we have a character completely untouched and carefree, a symbol of innocence and good still existing within the world.


Oh er, and to keep on topic (maybe?), uh, endings are very important to a story. If LOTR had ended at the Ring being cast into Mount Doom, it would have been far less satisfying a conclusion, and the trilogy probably not as immortalized as it has become.

[ScriptBabe]

I'm impressed so many of you have read the Silmarillion. I kept getting bogged down in the begats and never made it through the book. GRRM keeps telling me I just need to skip deeper into the book and read the stories. Perhaps I'll try again.

And the "falling action" scenes after the great battle, the ring into fire, etc. need to be an appropriate and emotional coda to the story. Something which I felt was sadly lacking at the end of ME3. If you've played all three games you have spent so much time with these characters that you really wanted something more than just a slide show.

[edisnooM]

@ScriptBabe

There's definitely a lot of small detail stuff in the Silmarillion that can get a bit boggy at times, but there's also a bunch of pretty great stories in there and I'd definitely recommend it to any LOTR fan, if for no other reason than that it adds a whole lot to the world Tolkien created.


Edit: Also if you're a lore junkie like me all the little details are pretty great too. :-)

Modifié par edisnooM, 24 mars 2013 - 11:43 .

[ScriptBabe]

I love the lore, and I always reread the appendix in the trilogy. I just need to skip past all the gods creating the universe, and I'll probably be fine. I've always found the story of Beren and Luthien to be lovely.

[Archonsg]

@edisnoom


It's *all*about the details. It's the difference between good sci-fi and bad fanfic.

Which is why some "fanfics" are actually really good reading, because of the details.

Modifié par Archonsg, 25 mars 2013 - 12:14 .

[ScriptBabe]

And the competence of the writer also helps. I confess, I'm a professional novelist and screenwriter, and I was so depressed by the ending of ME3 that I wrote a story about survivor's guilt, and PTSD and a wedding spinning out of control and using a mission from game one as the jumping off point to solve the Reaper problem. I admit engaging in that exercise left me feeling far more sanguine about the game. Still saddened because I think it could have been the greatest game created to date, but it's been diminished by the ending.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 25 mars 2013 - 12:20 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ah, this weekend is bringing back memories. I could go into a rant about them again.... but this one sums it all up so very very well. No one does it better....



ScriptBabe, I'm with you. The ending was so depressing. It took me until Thanksgiving. All I wanted was to see Liara again after it was over, and they left me laying in a pile of garbage. That was a year ago on Friday morning 22 Mar 2012 at 3:20 a.m. PDT.

ME3 didn't have a falling action. It had a failing action.

But we have MEHEM on the PC now which cuts out the obscene part of the game. It also allows the Citadel DLC to make some sense.

The one positive thing about the next game is that Mac Walters won't get within 100 miles of it. I'm hoping Casey Hudson won't either.

[TheProtheans]

kobayashi-maru wrote...

Was reading various things about how the ending was created and have commented a bit on it, but it lead me to having a weird thought. If those that hated the ending - myself included - had taken a different position could it have altered what occured?

What I mean by that is not the retake movement or the developers attitudes but simply a change in how we handled it. It seems pretty clear from the evidence that Bioware ran out of time to implement the ending they had in mind - according to the charts, unused dialogue on disc - so what if instead of going Nuclear on Bioware we had instead went for a more 'Let Bioware make the ending they planned' movement on EA. More positive and would have maybe lead to a better give and take. Now I'm not saying EA is the devil as some people think, they are a business, but maybe by being more positive Bioware could have been given the chance to fix the ending like in there original concept.

I'm not justifying everything the developers said pre release or how the fans got treated but maybe if given them the chance the original Artistic vision for the entire end game could have been completed and released along side Citadel DLC as free download. Given the extra time they could have brought back the war asset cut scenes etc and given the game a better send off and with ME4 in development, changed the ending to allow a more fluid sequel (not direct but set in same Universe) to occur.

Alternate realities.
What if I did this at this time, would that stop something else from happening.
I ask myself this? The answer is always no with things you can not control.

[Reorte]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The one positive thing about the next game is that Mac Walters won't get within 100 miles of it. I'm hoping Casey Hudson won't either.

I don't know about that. They are responsible for a lot of the good stuff too (the setting, some of the characters). I just hope that everyone plays to their strengths in the next game.

Modifié par Reorte, 25 mars 2013 - 12:35 .

[Archonsg]

I love Walters for Garrus, just not this idea of forced capitulation, suicide (and one case of attempted suicide) as well as the nihilistic message to end Shepard's story.

Though every time I see casey Hudson's smug smilie, my blood pressure goes up as it reminds me of a conman's.

Irregardless, whoever the real culprit is, whether these two or someone/s behind the scenes, EA or otherwise, to me they have damaged my perception of Bioware and thier products for the worse.

Dragon Age : Inquisition for example, instead of going "Yes! *whips out credit card and buy collector's edition on pre-order almost a year in advance*, I am going to wait for peer reviews, and probably since I'll miss out on the Collector's perks, wait till its on bargain.

[DWH1982]

Archonsg wrote...

Dragon Age : Inquisition for example, instead of going "Yes! *whips out credit card and buy collector's edition on pre-order almost a year in advance*, I am going to wait for peer reviews, and probably since I'll miss out on the Collector's perks, wait till its on bargain.

This is what I see myself doing with the next Mass Effect game.

Chances of buying it go down drastically if it's a prequal, but either way, I'll wait to see what the reviews and maybe other fans say. And I might wait for the price to come down a bit.

I learned my lesson with pre-ordering with ME3. Sadly, I have a family member who wasn't aware of that situation, and pre-ordered Sim City for me as a gift - so I've only had the "no pre-order" lesson reinforced.

Modifié par DWH1982, 25 mars 2013 - 01:55 .

[ScriptBabe]

So much of what we love. The universe, the alien races, the characters were established by Drew Karpyshyn and his team. And I've always admired Karpyshyn's generosity to his team. He always gives them the lion's share of the credit for Mass Effect.

[tschamp]

It has about a year since I played Mass Effect 3. I have brought two out of three DLC, but I haven't played them yet. I haven't even seen the EC. I just don't want to play it. That ending ruined everything for me. It was failure on many level on Bioware's part. I still think majority of people would like to see something done about it, but I am sure Bioware isn't going do anything about it now. Especially, Citadel DLC is the last one for this ME Universe.

[chemiclord]

tschamp wrote...

It has about a year since I played Mass Effect 3. I have brought two out of three DLC, but I haven't played them yet. I haven't even seen the EC. I just don't want to play it. That ending ruined everything for me. It was failure on many level on Bioware's part. I still think majority of people would like to see something done about it, but I am sure Bioware isn't going do anything about it now. Especially, Citadel DLC is the last one for this ME Universe.

Awfully odd to spend $25-30 (depending on which two DLC you bought) and not play them.

Just sayin'.

[tschamp]

chemiclord wrote...

tschamp wrote...

It has about a year since I played Mass Effect 3. I have brought two out of three DLC, but I haven't played them yet. I haven't even seen the EC. I just don't want to play it. That ending ruined everything for me. It was failure on many level on Bioware's part. I still think majority of people would like to see something done about it, but I am sure Bioware isn't going do anything about it now. Especially, Citadel DLC is the last one for this ME Universe.

Awfully odd to spend $25-30 (depending on which two DLC you bought) and not play them.

Just sayin'.

I know. I am sort of a completist, but I haven't gotten the Citadel DLC. I may get around to it one day, but I am not interested in playing them as of yet.

[Jadebaby]

No, this was not the fan's fault, BioWare knew that through their tailored story and characters they would attract very passionate and committed fans, this speaks volumes about the quality of their *previous* writing. So to then go and ruin it through sheer hubris, not to mention basically tell these passionate fans to "**** off" when they kick up a fuss because anyone with half a brain can see how greed and wanting to make ME3 "my (the writer's) story," ultimately ruined the whole trilogy and by extension, franchise. Well, I can't even begin to imagine what was going through their heads in the last year. But personally, I don't think they care, they're rich and you're not.