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[MattFini]

aryon69 wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

Was I the only one who didn't actually hate the original endings galactic dark age idea? I don't like ending but that was one idea I was all for it had so much potential to be explored in future games. What would the ME universe look like 200 years after, without the races basing tech on Reaper artifacts/relays but actually creating there own. The universe would have same species but would look much different. I kind of miss this aspect.

Nope you are not.  I thought it was a great trade-off, end the reaper threat but lose all of their tech.

I actually would've dug this as well if the ending could've had more emotional resonance. 

I wouldn't have minded pushing the galactic "reset" button as long as I could've had more closure with the crew of the Normandy and the other characters throughout the trilogy. Since everyone was on earth at that time (before the retcon), it could've been done.

If poeple had been with Shep and co. at the end, and it brought some closure to those characters (like Citadel did), I would've been fine. 

The problem is that the endings were completely cold ontop of everythng else. 

[GoldFlsh]

[quote]ScriptBabe wrote...



You see, I like the potential paradigm shift that occurs at the very end. I like the fact that the Illusive Man's fundamental philosophy can be interpreted as something positive. When you strip away all of Cerberus' immoral experiments and all the racism, you are left with a philosophy which encourages the exploration of new frontiers. We should embrace new technology. We should investigate that which we do not understand. We should dispel Lovecraft's fears. We should venture into the unknown. We should illuminate the dark places.

The problem is that these ideas were not presented effectively. The writers did not justify the Control and Synthesis options. Destroy is the only viable choice for many people, and that's a real shame. It doesn't help that each choice seems to validate certain unpleasant perspectives.
[/quote]

Okay, I hope this won't be a wall of text, but there are too many points to address in a few short sentences.  I'm not saying IT was the end all be all, but BioWare and EA clearly had a fire storm on their hands, and what IT does offer is that it is a _major_ theme of the games.  IT was presented as a grave threat all the way back with Liara's mama.  That means it met one essential criteria for good writing in that it had been _set up_.

This comes back to the issue of keeping the promise to your reader/viewer/player that you make in the beginning.  You better keep that contract or woe betide.  There's a big blog post about that too on my blog.  It was done perfectly in Dragon Age: Origins.  And let me offer an example from one of my novel series.  A Prometheus character tells my hero that if we follow his path he will "give us the stars".  I better pay that off or my readers are not going to be happy with me, and rightly so.

I also think the third game suffered by not having an identifiable antagonist.  Yes, they tried to make TIM a personalized opponent, but it felt very forced, and I kept finding myself asking uncomfortable questions that pulled me out of the game.  To wit -- how on Earth was Cereberus able to afford mounting these armies?  And why would humans be fighting each other and not the Reapers?  Yes, TIM and Kai Leng were indoctrinated, but presumably not every Cerberus soldier was.  

In the beginning I wanted to like The Illusive Man -- I mean it was President Bartlett,  but at it's core Cerberus is presented to us from the first game as a racist and utterly immoral organization.  They make that clear in one of Shepard's origin stories.  And doesn't the Alliance encourage exploration?  It's sort of the Star Trek Federation, except people had flaws which made them more interesting.  Point is by the middle of the third game I despised TIM and all he stood for.  I could not pick control.

Personally I found all three of the choices offered at the end to be horrific for varying reasons, and I also find the option of a "happy ending" to be perfectly acceptable and was disappointed that it wasn't offered.  (I wrote a long blog post about the efficacy of happy endings and why I think they come in for a bad rap.  People can go find it if they're interested.)  Point was that by the time it was over there wasn't a sense of choice at all, and no opportunity for the falling action and resolution scene that people need or the story feels incomplete.  The EC tried to address that, but I found it lacking.  It was adequate voice over and a few slides.  Not worthy of something this epic.

But ultimately it comes back to structure -- the Catalyst was never hinted at in game one or in game two.  For that matter neither was the Cruicible.  When something comes out of nowhere it can't feel organic and it feels like the writers are just starting to make it up as they go along.  At that point the reader/viewer/player starts to lose confidence, and you're going to lose them.  You can't introduce a new antagonist in the final 10 pages or 10 minutes.  It seems that almost every player viewed the Catalyst with disapprobation and as a villain and therefore they felt whip sawed.  It was clear that Harbinger needed to be the ultimate opponent in game three, the stand in for all his kind, but he was singularly absent from the game. 

Finally, there's the issue of theme.  All through the games Shepard is building concensus while still allowing people to keep their individuality as a person and member of a particular species.  I really thought the writer's were going to have the alliance you build be the ultimate solution.  They even partly set it up in a conversation with Javik.  He talkes about how there was no alliance in his time because the Protheans were conquers.  They had no true allies.  There could have been real consequences if you killed the Rachni queen, etc. etc. but none of it mattered. 

I suppose you could make the argument that synthesis is about unity, but it's a forced unity and so I found it abhorrant too.  I wanted a clean win where the galaxy says -- "Not this time" and that was not offered.  I go back to Dragon Age: Origins.   The players get to craft a solution to the problem of the archdemon that works for their particular Grey Warden.  Nobody suddenly told me I had to become a darkspawn, or become the archdemon and control the darkspawn.   They paid off the promise made at the end of the first 30 minutes of play -- that Allistair and I are going to go into the world, forge alliances and save Ferelden from the darkspawn.  I wanted that for Mass Effect.  



[/quote]

QFT 

EDIT: But the quote broke.

Modifié par GoldFlsh, 25 mars 2013 - 10:26 .

[David7204]

I like the idea of the Mass Relays being destroyed in a non-conventional victory because it helps reinforce that a conventional victory is clearly the best option. That might be tricky to make clear, since even if the final battle is an overwhelming, crushing victory against the Reapers, it's simply not possible to kill every Reaper in the galaxy in one fight. They'd still be some left.

And I would want players rejoicing in the victory, not scratching their heads and wondering why everyone is so happy when half the Reapers are still alive.

Modifié par David7204, 25 mars 2013 - 10:28 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

I like the idea of the Mass Relays being destroyed in a non-conventional victory because it helps reinforce that a conventional victory is clearly the best option. That might be tricky to make clear, since even if the final battle is an overwhelming, crushing victory against the Reapers, it's not possible to kill every Reaper in the galaxy in one fight. They'd still be some left.

. I like the relays being destroyed on a thematic level.  But I'm glad they aren't.

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 mars 2013 - 10:27 .

[David7204]

Obviously, they would be intact for a perfect ending.

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

I like the idea of the Mass Relays being destroyed in a non-conventional victory because it helps reinforce that a conventional victory is clearly the best option. That might be tricky to make clear, since even if the final battle is an overwhelming, crushing victory against the Reapers, it's not possible to kill every Reaper in the galaxy in one fight. They'd still be some left.

If the whole Crucible / Catalyst thing hadn't been the end of the story but just provided the tipping point in the galaxy's favour it would've made more sense (and would've allowed some more convincing downsides than the deaths of EDI and the geth, like you're still going to lose a lot of worlds and millions or billions finishing the job). Then Control could've been the shortcut that might've avoided all that loss, but with the risk of it all going wrong being made rather more obvious.

[David7204]

I would just scrap the Crucible, period. There's no way around it - everything about it is done poorly. It's introduced poorly. It's explained poorly. It's executed poorly. If Destroy and Control were explained better and executed better, they could work and be satisfying (although they would still be second rate to conventional victory. As it should be.) So they might be worth salvaging. But not the Crucible. I could find something better.

Modifié par David7204, 25 mars 2013 - 10:37 .

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

I would just scrap the Crucible, period. There's no way around it - everything about it is done poorly. It's introduced poorly. It's explained poorly. It's executed poorly. If Destroy and Control were explained better and executed better, they could work and be satisfying (although they would still be second rate to conventional victory. As it should be.) So they might be worth salvaging. But not the Crucible. I could find something better.

Not without redoing the entire game from scratch. The Reapers need something we don't have to beat them. Claiming that we're so great that we can do what thousands of previous cycles have failed at doing (beating the Reapers in a straight fight) is pushing plasusibility far too far for me (as well as looking rather arrogant). What that something is that isn't just as implausible is beyond me; the Reapers were a badly-conceived antagonist for just this reason.

Modifié par Reorte, 25 mars 2013 - 10:45 .

[David7204]

Nonsense. 95% of the game would be completely intact. The krogan and quarian arcs, all of the N7 side missions, the content with ME 2 characters, all of the Cerberus content.

It's never easy, but it could be done without coming off as contrived. As could a conventional victory. And it would be all the more satisfying for the Reapers being as strong as they are.

Modifié par David7204, 25 mars 2013 - 10:51 .

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

Nonsense. 95% of the game would be completely intact. The krogan and quarian arcs, all of the N7 side missions, the content with ME 2 characters, all of the Cerberus content.

It's never easy, but it could be done without coming off as contrived. As could a conventional victory.

So you've said before, without expanding on it. Things like the krogan and quarian arcs, good as they are, are somewhat tangential to the main plot anyway (probably why they're the good parts considering the weakness of the main plot).

Modifié par Reorte, 25 mars 2013 - 10:52 .

[David7204]

If you can wait an hour, I can be back here to expand on conventional victory. I admit, I don't have anything for an unconventional victory, but I think I could come up with something if I bounced enough ideas around.

Modifié par David7204, 25 mars 2013 - 10:54 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Nonsense. 95% of the game would be completely intact. The krogan and quarian arcs, all of the N7 side missions, the content with ME 2 characters, all of the Cerberus content.

It's never easy, but it could be done without coming off as contrived. As could a conventional victory. And it would be all the more satisfying for the Reapers being as strong as they are.

. Hell, redo parts of the Cerberus arc to make Control look more viable.

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

If you can wait an hour, I can be back here to expand on conventional victory. I admit, I don't have anything for an unconventional victory, but I think I could come up with something if I bounced enough ideas around.

PM it to me, I'll probably be in bed in an hour. It needs to be very likely that this cycle could do what thousands of previous ones could not without making us look arrogantly special. Claiming that not one single previous cycle has had any previous knowledge, anything like Thanix cannons, and had never been a disparate group still united together is relying on far too long odds. Ditto with any claim that this cycle has got greater military strength than any previous one - or that it was simply very lucky. Any of those could work if there had only been half a dozen cycles but not for thousands.

[chemiclord]

ScriptBabe wrote...

To address the DLC issue. I confess if they'd given me a logical ending that had been set up I would have happily paid for it. That being said it probably would have been wiser to offer that final confrontation DLC for free.

Well, I will tell you right now that Electronic Arts would NEVER sign off on that.  Bioware was able to get away with the Extended Cut because it tapped into resources that were pretty much already there and was a (reasonably) cheap fix that quelled SOME of the rage.

Had Bioware created an entirely new ending scenario from scratch as a DLC, Electronic Arts would have slapped at least a $10 price tag on it, if not more.  And that would have flown like a brick with the fanbase.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

To address the DLC issue. I confess if they'd given me a logical ending that had been set up I would have happily paid for it. That being said it probably would have been wiser to offer that final confrontation DLC for free.

Well, I will tell you right now that Electronic Arts would NEVER sign off on that.  Bioware was able to get away with the Extended Cut because it tapped into resources that were pretty much already there and was a (reasonably) cheap fix that quelled SOME of the rage.

Had Bioware created an entirely new ending scenario from scratch as a DLC, Electronic Arts would have slapped at least a $10 price tag on it, if not more.  And that would have flown like a brick with the fanbase.

I paid $10 for Broken Steel and was happy to do so.

Of course, there was more to it than an expanded ending, but still...

[chemiclord]

I really wish people would stop comparing Broken Steel to what happened with ME3.

Because it's not an accurate comparison at all. Broken Steel actually changed next to nothing within the game itself, it added one variable. That's a LOT different than a completely different ending... and there's no way that a conventional victory scenario makes sense without a complete rewrite of ME3 entirely... much less Priority: Earth.

Modifié par chemiclord, 25 mars 2013 - 11:28 .

[dani1138]

Reorte wrote...

It needs to be very likely that this cycle could do what thousands of previous ones could not without making us look arrogantly special. Claiming that not one single previous cycle has had any previous knowledge, anything like Thanix cannons, and had never been a disparate group still united together is relying on far too long odds. Ditto with any claim that this cycle has got greater military strength than any previous one - or that it was simply very lucky. Any of those could work if there had only been half a dozen cycles but not for thousands.

Not arrogantly special, but special nonetheless - We had the one thing no other cycles had previously: Advanced warning, coupled with an intact relay network and control of the Citadel. Remember, the Reapers usually attack by surprise, immediately severing all galactic government, gathering intel on all advanced species of the cycle, and cutting off access to the relays for all but themselves. And they do this all in one single move. It's a devastating, genius strategy that was truly frightening when it was first revealed in ME1.

ME3 essentially ignored all of this, but it should have made at least a small amount of difference, else why did the Reapers ever bother with this elaborate plan in the first place? If it's just as easy to wing their way from dark space and curb-stomp everyone regardless, then why bother at all?

Instead of seeing a story in which we are permitted to take advantage of this one-in-a-million opportunity, we're instead smothered in doom and gloom and told that only the magical MacGuffin can save us. It's one of the biggest missed opportunities I've ever witnessed in a story of any medium.

[Kenshen]

Reorte wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If you can wait an hour, I can be back here to expand on conventional victory. I admit, I don't have anything for an unconventional victory, but I think I could come up with something if I bounced enough ideas around.

PM it to me, I'll probably be in bed in an hour. It needs to be very likely that this cycle could do what thousands of previous ones could not without making us look arrogantly special. Claiming that not one single previous cycle has had any previous knowledge, anything like Thanix cannons, and had never been a disparate group still united together is relying on far too long odds. Ditto with any claim that this cycle has got greater military strength than any previous one - or that it was simply very lucky. Any of those could work if there had only been half a dozen cycles but not for thousands.

Well in many ways this cycle was different, special.  How many other cycles prevented the Citadel from starting the invasion?  None.  How many other cycles even knew about Leviathan and even got to speak with one?  None.  What other cycle managed to kill a reaper and then have time to study it and use some of its tech?  Not sure about this one cause Reapers have died in the past however I assume those deaths occurred during a harvest.

There is no way to ever know which cycle had the strongest military but we did have some advantages.  The Assari hogging prothean knowledge for 1000's of years which put them ahead of where they would have been without it.  The Krogan were deemed a threat 1500 years before the harvest would begin though I admit I am not fully sure if the Rachni War was meant to thin the galaxy down some or just to test how good of reaper pets they would make.  There really isn't just one thing we can point at and say this gives us the advantage other cycles lacked but when we start to add up all the little things I think it does tip it in our favor.

[ScriptBabe]

dani1138 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

It needs to be very likely that this cycle could do what thousands of previous ones could not without making us look arrogantly special. Claiming that not one single previous cycle has had any previous knowledge, anything like Thanix cannons, and had never been a disparate group still united together is relying on far too long odds. Ditto with any claim that this cycle has got greater military strength than any previous one - or that it was simply very lucky. Any of those could work if there had only been half a dozen cycles but not for thousands.

Not arrogantly special, but special nonetheless - We had the one thing no other cycles had previously: Advanced warning, coupled with an intact relay network and control of the Citadel. Remember, the Reapers usually attack by surprise, immediately severing all galactic government, gathering intel on all advanced species of the cycle, and cutting off access to the relays for all but themselves. And they do this all in one single move. It's a devastating, genius strategy that was truly frightening when it was first revealed in ME1.

ME3 essentially ignored all of this, but it should have made at least a small amount of difference, else why did the Reapers ever bother with this elaborate plan in the first place? If it's just as easy to wing their way from dark space and curb-stomp everyone regardless, then why bother at all?

Instead of seeing a story in which we are permitted to take advantage of this one-in-a-million opportunity, we're instead smothered in doom and gloom and told that only the magical MacGuffin can save us. It's one of the biggest missed opportunities I've ever witnessed in a story of any medium.

I had not considered all those variables, Dani, but that is so true!  And humans were also set up as the new variable that hadn't existed in the galaxy before.  We're genetically more diverse yet still united, etc. etc.  Yes, it's arrogant, but we're humans playing the game so they made us special.  It's not unheard of; Heinlein did it brilliantly in HAVE SPACESUIT WILL TRAVEL.  When Kip and Peewee defend the Earth in a trial before the galactic races it's just wonderful.  And we had united galaxy a fact that leaves old Javik fairly gobsmacked.  

[Reorte]

dani1138 wrote...

Not arrogantly special, but special nonetheless - We had the one thing no other cycles had previously: Advanced warning, coupled with an intact relay network and control of the Citadel. Remember, the Reapers usually attack by surprise, immediately severing all galactic government, gathering intel on all advanced species of the cycle, and cutting off access to the relays for all but themselves. And they do this all in one single move. It's a devastating, genius strategy that was truly frightening when it was first revealed in ME1.

ME3 essentially ignored all of this, but it should have made at least a small amount of difference, else why did the Reapers ever bother with this elaborate plan in the first place? If it's just as easy to wing their way from dark space and curb-stomp everyone regardless, then why bother at all?

Instead of seeing a story in which we are permitted to take advantage of this one-in-a-million opportunity, we're instead smothered in doom and gloom and told that only the magical MacGuffin can save us. It's one of the biggest missed opportunities I've ever witnessed in a story of any medium.

You say it yourself - one in a million opportunity. That makes us implausibly lucky.

If the Reapers have to rely on stealth and taking the Citadel by surprise the odds are very high that they'd have come unstuck by now. The Citadel being such a key part of every previous cycle? Unlikely. No warning to previous cycles? Unlikely. The Reapers will chose the easiest path but must have the ability to curbstomp if needed otherwise they'd have almost certainly failed before now. All of what you said would work if there had been a small number of previous cycles but it's stretching things far too far when there have been thousands.

[Reorte]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I had not considered all those variables, Dani, but that is so true!  And humans were also set up as the new variable that hadn't existed in the galaxy before.  We're genetically more diverse yet still united, etc. etc.  Yes, it's arrogant, but we're humans playing the game so they made us special.

And I'm afraid that annoys the hell out of me. It's unconvincing and that's another thing towards breaking suspension of disbelief (and in any case humans are less genetically diverse than most other life on Earth). It's also rather distasteful.

[edisnooM]

@ScriptBabe

Good blog post. I had actually read some stuff you wrote about ME3 a while back that were quite good as well.

I have very much wanted to hear from Hudson and Walters as to what exactly their intent and vision was for the ending, but to the best of my knowledge they have yet to offer up any sort of explanation at all. This is sort of odd because I think (perhaps mistakenly) that "artists" should be able to defend and explain their "art" when criticism arises and not go into lockdown and vanish. It does make me wonder if there was any sort of "vision" for the finale, or if Hudson being a fan of Deus Ex decided to take it's ending choices, throw in some ambiguity, and expected there to be much philosophical pondering and chin stroking.

Also as has been mentioned by several people already "The Measure of a Man" was a brilliant episode of TNG, and probably one of my favourites from the series. An epic speech by Patrick Stewart is a win in just about any capacity. Also in my opinion Picard's defence of Data could be quite appropriately used in ME for the Geth (well latter part of 2 and then 3 anyway).


@AlanC9

Since it was my overly long, cathartic textwall you referenced I feel I should say something.

For me at least the belief that there was something more to what I had witnessed stemmed from my belief and trust in BioWare's writing ability, I had not played DA2 so my opinion was unsullied, and I truly thought what I had seen was beneath them.

I didn't necessarily think it was IT, though it was not entirely without merit, the hazy dream like quality after Shepard wakes up at the Beam, teleportin' TIM, the fact that TIM was quite obviously using Indoctrination or something like it to control Shepard and Anderson (despite the fact that this doesn't really jive with how Indoctrination is presented, I always viewed it as more hypnosis or suggestion than remote control), and Shepard's "going along with it" demeanour with the Catalyst.

My belief that they had an Ace in the hole was helped further by BioWare's own response, Gamble's "If you knew what we had planned....hold on to your savegames forever." tweet, Hudson saying they'd discuss the endings once more people had played them, and responses from various other BioWare personnel made me think that they did indeed have a greater plan in the works.

This didn't last long though, as the days and then weeks passed and the fallout deepened, hope faded, and with Dr. Ray's post my trust vanished. This had been what they intended to release, it truly was the result of bad writing, and they (or at least those in power) were genuinely satisfied with it.

I think it's to BioWare's credit that I and others wanted to believe they were better, that they were capable of more, but sadly I no longer hold such delusions, BioWare's gold standard has been tarnished. I have not, and indeed may never, played DA2, I won't be buying DA3 without extensive research first, Mass Effect as a series is now dead to me, and with Casey heading the new IP there exists the strong possibility I will never buy another BioWare game again, a prospect that little over a year ago would have been completely alien to me.


It's quite boggling too because watching the ME3 Retrospective, I cannot fully grasp how Mass Effect could end in such way. Listening to some of them talk, I find it very difficult to understand how these people could produce the finale we received.


And you know I honestly think that even now I would pay for a better conclusion, I would really very much like to be able to love Mass Effect like I used to.

And I'm Scottish so getting money out of me is pretty good achievement. :-)



Edit:

In regards to this cycle being unique discussion, we also had access to Reaper tech which I'm not sure the other cycles did.  The Thanix cannon for starters, and also the Reaper IFF (I had an idea how that could have been used that I may inflict on people sometime).

And how hard would have been for the Crucible to just knock out the Reapers barriers? That's how we beat Sovereign. So take them down and let us fight it out, use our EMS, and take our chances.

Modifié par edisnooM, 26 mars 2013 - 01:50 .

[ScriptBabe]

And I'm Scottish so getting money out of me is pretty good achievement. :-)

LoL. With my last name I'm very Scottish too. And thank you for the very kind words.  Patrick did really nail it, didn't he?

And if you enjoyed Dragon Age I'd skip DA2. Let us wait for reviews and hope. Hope can sometimes be rewarded, right?

I wasn't making a statement about real world genetics. I was referring to the game. In it humans were presented as more diverse and variable than the other races. And I've always loved the idea that one small pebble can change an outcome. Luck does play a part in the affairs of nations.

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 26 mars 2013 - 02:00 .

[Iakus]

edisnooM wrote...

And how hard would have been for the Crucible to just knock out the Reapers barriers? That's how we beat Sovereign. So take them down and let us fight it out, use our EMS, and take our chances.

That's what I think the Crucible should have done.  Give the unified galaxy a chance to fight off the Reapers on a level-ish playing field.  It's not a "conventional" victory, because the Crucible is still deplayed.  Casualties are still pretty much a given.  But it's not a forced, arbitrary sacrifice.  It's living or dying based on strength, skill, and preparedness.

[ScriptBabe]

I used something similar when I went searching for a way to alter the ending for the story I wrote. (A little act of catharsis.) I used scanning the Keepers and EDI to give the Alliance a few moments when the Reapers were vulnerable. I didn't have either the time with my other projects or the energy to make a giant change, but I at least wanted something that originated in the first game to be significant.