315 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

Babaganoosh013 wrote...


Because it's part of the game. An important part when it determines our relationships (not necessarily in a LI way) and the bonuses they receive with all of our companions.

Is that all?
David Gaider already addressed this issue by pointing out that there are *plenty* of opportunities to aquire frienship points with Anders (nearly max friendship in Act 1 alone if you really try).

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 19 avril 2013 - 02:19 .

[jillabender]

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

One of the more fun aspects of RPGs are doing things that are not Political Correct. In Mass Effect my Shepard was a "racist" that put humanity before all other species. Loved to kill the council, put in Udina as the chancellor, military rule, help Cerberus fight of alien life.

In Oblivion Knight of the nine: I refused to knight any non-white person.

Give me the freedom to be "racist", "sexist", "homophobe" in an RPG.

One of the worst things with DA2 was Anders and that you lost "points" if you refused his gay advances on you. The game punished players that didn't bend over for Anders!

Look, I get the idea that it can be interesting to play a thoroughly rotten character.

But when you talk about wanting to kill a gay character without being "punished" by the game, you make it sound as though you want to play a bigoted character in order to feel powerful while doing it. And enjoying the sensation of power that comes from being free to vicariously express bigotry isn't something to be proud of.

I wouldn't have had a problem if you had expressed the appeal of playing a bigoted character in terms of wanting to examine the mindset of people who enjoy asserting power over less powerful groups of people. As I said, I can understand wanting to get into the head of an evil character and to vicariously experience the emotions that kind of person would feel.

I don't even think it's necessarily a horrible thing to use a despicable character as an outlet for anti-social impulses that one might have oneself - after all, there's no one who's completely free from the desire for power. But while I don't think that seeking a vicarious outlet for those impulses is something to feel horribly guilty about, necessarily, I don't think it's something to feel proud of, either.

What I, and I suspect others, have a problem with, is that you seem to be wearing your desire to play a so-called "politically incorrect" character as a badge of pride. You're proclaiming it as though it's something that makes you tough and edgy, and that makes you come across as someone who, at the very least, doesn't take bigotry very seriously.

In short, I'm not bothered by the idea of someone playing a bigoted character as such: I'm bothered by the idea of someone enjoying the freedom to vicariously express bigotry, without having any moral self-awareness about it.

Finally, expressing wanting to play a bigoted character is different from expressing wanting to play a rotten character in general. You don't have to agree with me about moral self-awareness, but at least consider that when you talk about wanting the freedom to vicariously express bigotry without consequences in a game, it's a hurtful reminder to other people that there are people who want to abuse them without consequences in real life, simply because of things like their race or sexual orientation.

Silfren wrote...

You really gotta love this way certain people have of putting words like racist or homophobe in square-quotes.  Or how they use the phrase politically correct, when all that means is just being, OMG, a decent and sensitive person.  But yeah, putting homophobe in squarequotes?  Niiiiiice.  Says a lot about their mindset.

That certainly doesn't help, I agree.

Modifié par jillabender, 19 avril 2013 - 04:00 .

[Babaganoosh013]

[quote]sandalisthemaker wrote...

[quote]Babaganoosh013 wrote...


Because it's part of the game. An important part when it determines our relationships (not necessarily in a LI way) and the bonuses they receive with all of our companions.

[/quote]

Is that all?
David Gaider already addressed this issue by pointing out that there are *plenty* of opportunities to aquire frienship points with Anders (nearly max friendship in Act 1 alone if you really try).

[/quote]
[/quote]
Yes, I just always thought it seemed a bit extreme for some reason. I never thought of compairing it to Zevran until recently. A not so over-the-top rejection of him could net you a -10 as well. You never got off scott-free.

That's the power of words. I'll bet for DA2, if they kept saying approves/disapproves like in Origins, but used the friendship/rivalry meter, most of the problems that some people (including myself) had with that would have been gone. Obviously if after that, if you only did things largly to make Anders disapprove of you would turn it into an actual rivalry. I could be wrong, and it's just me.

For DA3, regardless of what they decide to do with words, if they more or less decide to use the same system with companions as DA2 (which I prefer over DAO), I'll think of it as this way. So, no matter what gender or orientation my Inquisitor is, when I turn anyone down for any reason, I'll probably think of approve/disapprove now. Even for all regular interactions with all of my companions regardless of if they're a potential LI or not (including a non-romancable gay companion. - topic)

At the end of the day, I put those companion approval points in the same category as EXP, or gold. If something seemed a bit over the top weird or out of place for those, I'd probably complain about that as well. Now by changing a word, the Anders (or any other LI) thing makes perfect sense.

Modifié par Babaganoosh013, 19 avril 2013 - 03:10 .

[Saibh]

The thing about approval is, though, naturally someone does like you a bit less if you reject them. Can you honestly say you feel as strongly and you are unhurt when someone you are interested in rejects you? The problem is that usually approval only happens if you disagree or say something they find morally offensive, not personally hurtful that wasn't intentionally an insult. It's understandable for them to lose approval for you if you don't feel the same way. It's just that we get conditioned to associate it with other things rather than non-hateful personal feelings.

That said, I don't agree that it makes any sense for them gain Rivalry. That's something I really don't like about the system. Rivalry isn't supposed to be "the option where they hate you", but it doesn't make sense that you can pursue a person you're treating like crap because Rivalry. I personally would love if there were two bars: approval and influence. It would make up for a lot of the disparity.

[Allan Schumacher]

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

One of the more fun aspects of RPGs are doing things that are not Political Correct. In Mass Effect my Shepard was a "racist" that put humanity before all other species. Loved to kill the council, put in Udina as the chancellor, military rule, help Cerberus fight of alien life.

In Oblivion Knight of the nine: I refused to knight any non-white person.

Give me the freedom to be "racist", "sexist", "homophobe" in an RPG.

One of the worst things with DA2 was Anders and that you lost "points" if you refused his gay advances on you. The game punished players that didn't bend over for Anders!

Anders reaction has nothing to do with your ability to play (or to not play) a homophobic character.  In fact, if you were trying to play one, you wouldn't care what Anders thought of your rebuking of him.

The game is not punishing people for not bending over for Anders.  It's causing a little blip in how he sees you, which as far as I'm concerned is a natural reaction.  If anything we can conclude that Anders is maybe a bit overly sensitive.  This has nothing to do with how you wish to roleplay your character.

Unless you're trying to tell me that you should be able to play a racist/sexist/homophobic character and still have the NPCs love you for it.  To which my response to that is simply "tough."

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 avril 2013 - 03:45 .

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

One of the more fun aspects of RPGs are doing things that are not Political Correct. In Mass Effect my Shepard was a "racist" that put humanity before all other species. Loved to kill the council, put in Udina as the chancellor, military rule, help Cerberus fight of alien life.

In Oblivion Knight of the nine: I refused to knight any non-white person.

Give me the freedom to be "racist", "sexist", "homophobe" in an RPG.

One of the worst things with DA2 was Anders and that you lost "points" if you refused his gay advances on you. The game punished players that didn't bend over for Anders!

Anders reaction has nothing to do with your ability to play (or to not play) a homophobic character.  In fact, if you were trying to play one, you wouldn't care what Anders thought of your rebuking of him.

The game is not punishing people for not bending over for Anders.  It's causing a little blip in how he sees you, which as far as I'm concerned is a natural reaction.  If anything we can conclude that Anders is maybe a bit overly sensitive.  This has nothing to do with how you wish to roleplay your character.

Unless you're trying to tell me that you should be able to play a racist/sexist/homophobic character and still have the NPCs love you for it.  To which my response to that is simply "tough."

^ I love this guy.

[In Exile]

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

One of the more fun aspects of RPGs are doing things that are not Political Correct. In Mass Effect my Shepard was a "racist" that put humanity before all other species. Loved to kill the council, put in Udina as the chancellor, military rule, help Cerberus fight of alien life.

In Oblivion Knight of the nine: I refused to knight any non-white person.

Give me the freedom to be "racist", "sexist", "homophobe" in an RPG.

One of the worst things with DA2 was Anders and that you lost "points" if you refused his gay advances on you. The game punished players that didn't bend over for Anders!

....

....



...


....





And that about sums that up.

[I Like Cats And]

There's too much gay in Bioware games. I think it's rad the worlds more accepting but don't shove it down my throat. A huge reason I disliked Anders in DA2 (aside from the terrible writing) was the fact he flirted with my straight Hawke. He didn't like me as much anymore because I turned down his advances when I was straight.

[ElitePinecone]

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

Killing people who are trying to help you - who are in the same party as the protagonist - on the basis of their sexuality is more psychopathic than subverting political correctness, surely. It's slightly disturbing that you seem to be so enthusiastic about that option.

I mean, turning down help is one thing, murder quite another. 

[Nomadiac]

Filament wrote...

I support shoving it down I Like Cats And's throat.

:innocent:

Seriously, though, reading their (his?) post just had me going 'Wut.'

[AtreiyaN7]

Filament wrote...

I support shoving it down I Like Cats And's throat.

I'm going second this.

[Knight of Dane]

I Like Cats And wrote...

There's too much gay in Bioware games. I think it's rad the worlds more accepting but don't shove it down my throat. A huge reason I disliked Anders in DA2 (aside from the terrible writing) was the fact he flirted with my straight Hawke. He didn't like me as much anymore because I turned down his advances when I was straight.

On my first playthrough (as female) I shut him down right to begin with and no rivalry points were given.

[Knight of Dane]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

Killing people who are trying to help you - who are in the same party as the protagonist - on the basis of their sexuality is more psychopathic than subverting political correctness, surely. It's slightly disturbing that you seem to be so enthusiastic about that option.

I mean, turning down help is one thing, murder quite another. 

No, psychopathic behaviour would be to kill him "just because."

Psychopathy is more about the lack of any emotions and empathy than motive.

[Meatbaggins]

Knight of Dane wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

Killing people who are trying to help you - who are in the same party as the protagonist - on the basis of their sexuality is more psychopathic than subverting political correctness, surely. It's slightly disturbing that you seem to be so enthusiastic about that option.

I mean, turning down help is one thing, murder quite another. 

No, psychopathic behaviour would be to kill him "just because."

Psychopathy is more about the lack of any emotions and empathy than motive.

How does that make it not psychpathic? How does something have to be "just because" because in order to be psychopathic?

Modifié par Meatbaggins, 19 avril 2013 - 09:06 .

[Knight of Dane]

That's the definition of psychpathy. "Not caring" as such, look it up.

Motivation implies emotion, emotion which psychopaths lack.

[mllrthyme]

Not necessarily. Psychopaths can be subject to motivation, which may vary from greed to desire to simply for kicks. Killing Anders for being gay and killings Anders "just because" would be considered psychopathic if the killer felt no remorse for his actions and/or even took pleasure in it. Point of fact, psychopaths understand empathy and the human condition far more than many people realize. It's what makes them such effective killers. See Arl Howe, for example.

[Renmiri1]

Nomadiac wrote...

Filament wrote...

I support shoving it down I Like Cats And's throat.

:innocent:

Seriously, though, reading their (his?) post just had me going 'Wut.'

Guy is a troll

[Knight of Dane]

mllrthyme wrote...

Not necessarily. Psychopaths can be subject to motivation, which may vary from greed to desire to simply for kicks. Killing Anders for being gay and killings Anders "just because" would be considered psychopathic if the killer felt no remorse for his actions and/or even took pleasure in it. Point of fact, psychopaths understand empathy and the human condition far more than many people realize. It's what makes them such effective killers. See Arl Howe, for example.

No.

But enough, I won't keep this thread off-track any longer.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 19 avril 2013 - 02:28 .

[Renmiri1]

Knight of Dane wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shawn Marrster wrote...

Gay companions.. OK. But let it be a RPG. Let me kill the gay companion without "punishment" from the game.

Killing people who are trying to help you - who are in the same party as the protagonist - on the basis of their sexuality is more psychopathic than subverting political correctness, surely. It's slightly disturbing that you seem to be so enthusiastic about that option.

I mean, turning down help is one thing, murder quite another. 

No, psychopathic behaviour would be to kill him "just because."

Psychopathy is more about the lack of any emotions and empathy than motive.

You are confusing Sociopath with Psicopath. Sociopath is indeed the lack of any emotion or connection to people other than yourself and it is a KIND OF Psycopath, but there are other kinds.

That said, I wouldn't call anyone psycopath for trolling the boards 

[Knight of Dane]

No, a sociopath is a person who has no regards of anyone else. They are defined with the ability to still feel for themselves, which allows emotional motivation.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 19 avril 2013 - 02:46 .

[mllrthyme]

@ Dane - interesting rebuttal.  But I think I know what I'm talking about considering I used to work with this population.

And a sociopath and psychopath are the same thing, just different terminology.

And back on topic...

LarryDavid wrote...

I understand what you are saying. and maybe, due to not being a native speaker of English, somethings aren't nuanced enough. But it is not my fault people are not able interpret the words I use in the right context. Like in the scientific world 'theory' has a total different meaning. So when I use the words wrong/abnormal in a clearly biological context, it means 'not as it is supposed to be'. Also it certainly does not mean that as a result a person that is gay is some kind of freak.

There is no 1to1 mapping between a baby and its DNA; DNA is more like a recipe to make the baby. I don't know how your cooking skills are, but sometimes I use too much salt or let things get burned, ... . So when discussion the food you will say things like 'too much salt' and not 'uniquely salted' or 'a different kind of salting'.

I have to say that some of my favorite dishes have resulted from not strictly following the recipe.  Diversity is what keeps things interesting, whether it be in games/stories, real life or science.

Modifié par mllrthyme, 19 avril 2013 - 02:49 .

[Knight of Dane]

mllrthyme wrote...

@ Dane - interesting rebuttal.  But I think I know what I'm talking about considering I used to work with this population.

And a sociopath and psychopath are the same thing, just different terminology.

Don't know if my english is failing me here, but what is "this population?"

I shant question your qualifications and I don't claim to have any speciality in the field myself, but psychology is a school of theory.

So don't use the "I'm right because I'm smart and specialized" card, it's childish.

Where I am from the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is that sociopaths are a "branch" of psychopathy.
Sociopath is a "specialized" mental disorder where a person lacks the capacity to feel for anyone but themselves or sociatal norms while "100%" psychopathy is the complete package, not giving a damn about anything.

[mllrthyme]

"This population" means I worked with those individuals who met criteria for psychopathology. And it does seem that we are dealing with differences in language as well as criteria in different countries. Where I live, psychology is a practice, not strictly a theory, and a large number of individuals make their living doing so.

Also, I was not playing the "I'm right because I'm smart and specialized" card. I was playing the "I've studied this and have read up on the topic" card. You original post regarding the definition of psychopath suggested to look it up, which I had already done.

However, I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with you further via PM so as not to derail this thread any more than we already have.

[Knight of Dane]

Feel free to message me any time.