315 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

While an interesting idea I have several reservations. First most people don't go shouting their preferences for all the world to hear. Some people just don't talk about them at all, unless someone shows an interest in them. Even companions you claim to be "straight" never specifically say they are only interested in the opposite gender. Aveline for example says that she "considered" Hawke regardless of gender.

Also, going off numbers we are already probably going to have four bisexual LI companions. Since we only have about 6-7 companions per game average this would mean that if we also have a homosexual non-LI then more than half the team are bisexual/homosexual. It just doesn't seem very realistic at all. Of course it would be a nice change to see LI's who have not been romanced get together with the other LI of the same gender.

Modifié par EJ107, 24 mars 2013 - 05:23 .

[LarryDavid]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

LarryDavid wrote...

For me, the most logic definition for 'openly x' is; (feeling the need to) state that you're 'x' when it is not rerquired. Now, regarding sexual preferences, straight is normal and gay is abnormal (not defined as uncommon, like blue eyes,
but as something gone wrong (in this case hormones while inside the womb)) and hence being 'openly straight' does not make that much sense. The only person I have ever know to act 'openly straight' was gay, which was annoying.

So being gay is "having something gone wrong?" and gay people have "something wrong with them?" According to some of the latest research, testostorone or estrogen levels are increased inside the womb not as a result of something mysteriously, randomly going wrong but rather as a stabilizing mechanism for the mother's health. 

Gay people are not "abnormal" any more than having blue eyes is abnormal and the presence of homoseuality throughout multiple species should testify to that. The casual homophobia in this thread disgusts me.

The hormones that flows from the mother to the child during the development of the brains determines the sexual preferences of the child. Depending on the hormone balance you end up being straight, slightly bi, ... . In the non-straight cases 'something did go wrong' as this hormone balance did deviate from the normal values. The ambiguity in 'something went wrong' arrives from not yet being able to pinpoint the exact mechanism behind this. Given evolution theory, it is hence to be expected that homosexuality is widely found in other species.

I have never stated that being gay is wrong in the non-biological sense or that the biological origin of sexual preferences should be used to make moral judgements. But if you want to be insulted by nature, go ahead!

Modifié par LarryDavid, 24 mars 2013 - 05:29 .

[Howlsfury]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
But thats kind of the point.

Historically speaking, Christianity has always been about marriage through procreation. In ancient times it was out of practicality to produce children. The morality came to be through reiterations during the Dark Ages and the medieval period by the Church as a form of control/tenant of the religion that a local population followed. Its the same reason people had ten kids instead of two; survivability and a semblance of stability with a family unit in often turbulant times. 

At least in real life. Removing that from Dragon Age of course is fine. I think that keeping sexuality as more of a character preference over a moral issue in the world is a wise decision in the end. Marriage then becomes only through practicality for some, and true love for others depending on sexual preference. 

I would agree with you, if it weren't for the many accounts of homosexual behavior being specifically referenced as a sin. Agree with it or not, many people's current values are taken something as old as the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. (In which many other "sins" are conveniently forgotten, but anyway.) That's my point. Andraste never mentions same sex couples. The Bible does. Andraste does mention mages and magic. That's where I'm drawing the, admittedly not perfect, parallel between gays and lesbians in modern times and mages in Thedas.

Ae you saying that being gay will turn you in to an abomination that kills every straight person?

No she is just comparing the sexual gender based taboos wrought by european/middle eastern religion to that of the religouse presidence set in Thedas, in this case the Andrastic Religion which is heavly based on acient catholicism but with some very key contrasting diffrences. So please do not take what she is saying out of contex. 

[Allan Schumacher]

In the non-straight cases 'something did go wrong' as this hormone balance did deviate from the normal values.

The issue I have with your statement is that you have equated "something different happened" with "something wrong happened." This isn't an issue about nature, but sociocultural context of the word "wrong" (or "abnormal") and the associations people have with it.

When you summarize your statement with "if you want to be insulted by nature, go ahead" you obfuscate the issue that people have with your word choice.

If you wish to believe that people won't take offense to your use of the word wrong, I would assert that you are not recognizing the implications people will make when reading words. However, given that you placed "something did go wrong" in quotation marks, I think you actually recognize this.

While I can read your post and recognize that abnormal can simply mean "not typical" it's important to recognize the meanings the words you use and how they will be received. "Wrong" is often seen as incorrect while "abnormal" is often associated with something that is deviant and undesirable. For instance, tell parents their child is unique (which by definition is not typical) compared to abnormal, and see the difference in response you get.

Please use synonyms that are less prone to being interpreted as pejoratives, as these boards can be volatile enough as is.

Thanks.

[brushyourteeth]

M25105 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Oberkaiser wrote...

Every time I read something like this I try to imagine what openly straight would look like and it doesn't make any sense. Straight people don't base their identities around their sexual preferences.

I do.

I have a lot of gay acquaintances and end up spending a pretty sad amount of time with them defending my straight-ness.

Hold on, hold on. You have to defend that you prefer women?

No no.

I'm a heterosexual, married female. With a handful of lesbian friends who pressure me to "try it."

I'm one individual that has a hard time seeing sexual preference as not linked to part of who you are as a person. I realize that it doesn't change your personality, or morals, or even most of your values. But the fact that I'm attracted to men and not women is pretty important to me, and seems like something my friends should know and not have to guess at. It's certainly not all that defines me, but I would feel uncomfortable identifying someone as a close friend that couldn't tell you for sure whether I were gay, straight, or bi.

I think that's why I find myself wishing I could know where our companions stand. It doesn't define who they are at their core, but it does seem like something that should have come up when you've known someone for a decade or longer, as we did in DAII. I wouldn't love her less or more if Isabela were gay or straight, but I like knowing that she's bi.

... and it also eliminates a lot of silly arguments on these types of threads.

Just my opinion. Please don't flame.

[InfinitePaths]

Trolldrool wrote...

If being gay was the characters' only interesting trait or the whole premise for their creation/inclusion in the game, then definitely no.

Is being straight the only trait of a character?

[Allan Schumacher]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Trolldrool wrote...

If being gay was the characters' only interesting trait or the whole premise for their creation/inclusion in the game, then definitely no.

Is being straight the only trait of a character?

No it's not.

Trolldrool is simply stating "If the inclusion of a character exists solely to be a homosexual in the game universe, then it's not a positive thing for the game."

Given your question back to him, I am making the assumption that the inclusion of a character simply to show there are heterosexual characters in the game, is also something you would find not necessary.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 mars 2013 - 06:53 .

[InfinitePaths]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Trolldrool wrote...

If being gay was the characters' only interesting trait or the whole premise for their creation/inclusion in the game, then definitely no.

Is being straight the only trait of a character?

No it's not.

Trolldrool is simply stating "If the inclusion of a character exists solely to be a homosexual in the game universe, then it's not a positive thing for the game."

Given your question back to him, I am making the assumption that the inclusion of a character simply to show there are heterosexual characters in the game, is also something you would find not necessary.

Then I agree,It would be horrible if they make a character just to have someone gay in the universe.But that would not make sense.I think that there should be a fully fleshed charather who is gay.Just like fully fleshed woman,black people etc...

[Oberkaiser]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In the non-straight cases 'something did go wrong' as this hormone balance did deviate from the normal values.

The issue I have with your statement is that you have equated "something different happened" with "something wrong happened." This isn't an issue about nature, but sociocultural context of the word "wrong" (or "abnormal") and the associations people have with it.

When you summarize your statement with "if you want to be insulted by nature, go ahead" you obfuscate the issue that people have with your word choice.

If you wish to believe that people won't take offense to your use of the word wrong, I would assert that you are not recognizing the implications people will make when reading words. However, given that you placed "something did go wrong" in quotation marks, I think you actually recognize this.

While I can read your post and recognize that abnormal can simply mean "not typical" it's important to recognize the meanings the words you use and how they will be received. "Wrong" is often seen as incorrect while "abnormal" is often associated with something that is deviant and undesirable. For instance, tell parents their child is unique (which by definition is not typical) compared to abnormal, and see the difference in response you get.

Please use synonyms that are less prone to being interpreted as pejoratives, as these boards can be volatile enough as is.

Thanks.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between "intended purpose" and "acceptable deviation". Because modern science knows plenty about the human body's intended purpose, and let me tell you right away - being able and willing to procreate with the opposite sex is part of it. If you feel offended by that or feel like that needs to be censored, I have some bad news about you and the company you work for.

[LPPrince]

brushyourteeth wrote...

M25105 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Oberkaiser wrote...

Every time I read something like this I try to imagine what openly straight would look like and it doesn't make any sense. Straight people don't base their identities around their sexual preferences.

I do.

I have a lot of gay acquaintances and end up spending a pretty sad amount of time with them defending my straight-ness.

Hold on, hold on. You have to defend that you prefer women?

No no.

I'm a heterosexual, married female. With a handful of lesbian friends who pressure me to "try it."

I'm one individual that has a hard time seeing sexual preference as not linked to part of who you are as a person. I realize that it doesn't change your personality, or morals, or even most of your values. But the fact that I'm attracted to men and not women is pretty important to me, and seems like something my friends should know and not have to guess at. It's certainly not all that defines me, but I would feel uncomfortable identifying someone as a close friend that couldn't tell you for sure whether I were gay, straight, or bi.

I think that's why I find myself wishing I could know where our companions stand. It doesn't define who they are at their core, but it does seem like something that should have come up when you've known someone for a decade or longer, as we did in DAII. I wouldn't love her less or more if Isabela were gay or straight, but I like knowing that she's bi.

... and it also eliminates a lot of silly arguments on these types of threads.

Just my opinion. Please don't flame.

I like this, and agree with it.

[legbamel]

If all humans are for is procreation what on Earth are you doing playing games and engaging on the forum? Get out there and make some babies and let the rest of us who see a wider purpose have a reasonable discussion.

Modifié par legbamel, 24 mars 2013 - 07:10 .

[Blazomancer]

Yes it'd be nice to have different sexualities for the non-romanceable companions. If Aveline married a guardswoman rather than Donnic, it'd have been just as cool. I also liked Steve in ME3.

[InfinitePaths]

@legbamel
Well said!
@blazomancer
Yes,would be awesome.

[Allan Schumacher]

Oberkaiser wrote...

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between "intended purpose" and "acceptable deviation". Because modern science knows plenty about the human body's intended purpose, and let me tell you right away - being able and willing to procreate with the opposite sex is part of it. If you feel offended by that or feel like that needs to be censored, I have some bad news about you and the company you work for.

Perhaps you don't understand that this isn't a forum within the scientific community, and that expecting to be able to discuss things in such a manner is going to lead to confusion/misunderstanding and other potential issues.  Furthermore, the difference between "intended purpose" and "acceptable deviation" makes no implications as to whether or not something is "wrong."  So your entire argument is point is arguably not even relevant to the discussion I was making.

There's a reason why educators stress to children during things like sex education that "because you are not average, does not mean that you are not normal" and it's less to do with the scientific merit but more to do with the psychological/sociological reasonings.


For the record, I was not offended by LarryDavid's post (I explicitly said so).  I, however, can understand that human beings don't typically enjoy being called "wrong" nor "abnormal" and tend to respond defensively.  As somewhat indicated by your response just now.  If you think that my post is one about censorship, I have some bad news about your reading comprehension and debating skills.  My post is about proper communication to ensure that your point comes across in the correct way to the audience you are communicating to.


EDIT: Deleted some posts prior to this.  I want this tangent to stop now.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 mars 2013 - 07:16 .

[Oberkaiser]

As long as we agree that political correctness has not clouded anyone's understanding of tangible realities, and that the only purpose of this forced self-censorship is to protect the feelings of "children" for "psychological/sociological" reasons, I don't have a problem with that.

[Mykel54]

I don´t see the point of representing every minority group that exist on earth in a fantasy videogame. More so, i don´t see why there is a need to represent homosexuals over the rest, when others minorities simply aren´t represented.

I think bioware games are crossing the line from being entertainment to becoming a plataform for appeasement of certain vocal minorities. This mean that the game´s purpose will be changed in order to appease these groups, while other groups who are less vocal will not be represented ingame.

There are no asiatics, no vegetarians, no jews, no anarquists, no albinos, no arabs, etc. in this game, because it is fantasy game and it is not meant to represent what is on earth. It is meant to represent only the things that contribute to the story, and that make sense in that context. ex: it doesn´t make sense for hawke to have asiatic features, because ferelden is obviously not asiatic, he would look out of place simply to give in to the asiatic who demands representation in the game.

The point is that these demands are selfish, as it is encouraged by a minority group that wants to exercise pressure in order to get what they want, at the expense of any other minority groups who aren´t pressuring, and the majority which doesn´t care or doesn´t want the same thing.

Let the developers create the game how they want, and carry out your political campaigns in real life, instead of pressuring game developers to make their games a political weapon to suit you. I hope bioware don´t give in to appeasing these groups, and keep on making their games based on their own ideas.

[Renmiri1]

Mykel54 wrote...

I don´t see the point of representing every minority group that exist on earth in a fantasy videogame. More so, i don´t see why there is a need to represent homosexuals over the rest, when others minorities simply aren´t represented.

I think bioware games are crossing the line from being entertainment to becoming a plataform for appeasement of certain vocal minorities. This mean that the game´s purpose will be changed in order to appease these groups, while other groups who are less vocal will not be represented ingame.

There are no asiatics, no vegetarians, no jews, no anarquists, no albinos, no arabs, etc. in this game, because it is fantasy game and it is not meant to represent what is on earth. It is meant to represent only the things that contribute to the story, and that make sense in that context. ex: it doesn´t make sense for hawke to have asiatic features, because ferelden is obviously not asiatic, he would look out of place simply to give in to the asiatic who demands representation in the game.

The point is that these demands are selfish, as it is encouraged by a minority group that wants to exercise pressure in order to get what they want, at the expense of any other minority groups who aren´t pressuring, and the majority which doesn´t care or doesn´t want the same thing.

Let the developers create the game how they want, and carry out your political campaigns in real life, instead of pressuring game developers to make their games a political weapon to suit you. I hope bioware don´t give in to appeasing these groups, and keep on making their games based on their own ideas.

Show me one single post demanding Bioware "represent homosexuals over the rest" 

Nice strawman you built there

And yes. let Bioware do what they want. Since David Gaider has been quite clear DAI will be fair and inclusive just like DA2 I take it you will not come here whine that there is a gay guy on your game, or that there are too many "bi" people on your party. Like the OP in this thread and his previous thread.

Respect the developers ? Please do, they have been clear DA2 sexuality inclusiveness is here to stay. Don't like it, don't play it.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 07:38 .

[TheJediSaint]

Mykel54 wrote...
Bunch of homophobic drivel.

/Sarcasm 

Yes, clearly Bioware's being inclusive because they're being bullied by all those mean loud people, rather than just for inclusivness' sake.

/Sarcasm

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 mars 2013 - 07:37 .

[philippe willaume]

LPPrince wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

M25105 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Oberkaiser wrote...

Every time I read something like this I try to imagine what openly straight would look like and it doesn't make any sense. Straight people don't base their identities around their sexual preferences.

I do.

I have a lot of gay acquaintances and end up spending a pretty sad amount of time with them defending my straight-ness.

Hold on, hold on. You have to defend that you prefer women?

No no.

I'm a heterosexual, married female. With a handful of lesbian friends who pressure me to "try it."

I'm one individual that has a hard time seeing sexual preference as not linked to part of who you are as a person. I realize that it doesn't change your personality, or morals, or even most of your values. But the fact that I'm attracted to men and not women is pretty important to me, and seems like something my friends should know and not have to guess at. It's certainly not all that defines me, but I would feel uncomfortable identifying someone as a close friend that couldn't tell you for sure whether I were gay, straight, or bi.

I think that's why I find myself wishing I could know where our companions stand. It doesn't define who they are at their core, but it does seem like something that should have come up when you've known someone for a decade or longer, as we did in DAII. I wouldn't love her less or more if Isabela were gay or straight, but I like knowing that she's bi.

... and it also eliminates a lot of silly arguments on these types of threads.

Just my opinion. Please don't flame.

I like this, and agree with it.

I see where you are coming from.

However i think what parts of what makes isabella isablella so to speak but aveline would be the same regardless witchever team she is batting for. 

I would say that knowing  the orientation of a character only matters if it is important for the char developement or the story.

phil

[LarryDavid]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The issue I have with your statement is that you have equated "something different happened" with "something wrong happened." This isn't an issue about nature, but sociocultural context of the word "wrong" (or "abnormal") and the associations people have with it.

When you summarize your statement with "if you want to be insulted by nature, go ahead" you obfuscate the issue that people have with your word choice.

If you wish to believe that people won't take offense to your use of the word wrong, I would assert that you are not recognizing the implications people will make when reading words. However, given that you placed "something did go wrong" in quotation marks, I think you actually recognize this.

While I can read your post and recognize that abnormal can simply mean "not typical" it's important to recognize the meanings the words you use and how they will be received. "Wrong" is often seen as incorrect while "abnormal" is often associated with something that is deviant and undesirable. For instance, tell parents their child is unique (which by definition is not typical) compared to abnormal, and see the difference in response you get.

Please use synonyms that are less prone to being interpreted as pejoratives, as these boards can be volatile enough as is.

Thanks.

I understand what you are saying. and maybe, due to not being a native speaker of English, somethings aren't nuanced enough. But it is not my fault people are not able interpret the words I use in the right context. Like in the scientific world 'theory' has a total different meaning. So when I use the words wrong/abnormal in a clearly biological context, it means 'not as it is supposed to be'. Also it certainly does not mean that as a result a person that is gay is some kind of freak.

There is no 1to1 mapping between a baby and its DNA; DNA is more like a recipe to make the baby. I don't know how your cooking skills are, but sometimes I use too much salt or let things get burned, ... . So when discussion the food you will say things like 'too much salt' and not 'uniquely salted' or 'a different kind of salting'.

[Howlsfury]

Flat out its a bad argument to claim that Bioware is simply being PC for adding in gay/bisexual characters in their games. Especially when sexual diversity matches well within their own games, Western hang ups regarding sexuality stems directly from Abrahamic beliefs and as such has Zero baring in the DA universe, and it is ok for Bioware to depict a future where those hang ups and prejudice are part of the general past, much as most people in western society today no longer believe woman to be property. I for one give them major props for this. As for Bio not representing enough minority groups, i call BS, and ME is very much self evident when it comes to diversity.

Edit: In fact ME very much use's the Star Trek forumal when it comes to Diversity: Japaness, African, Anglo european, Scottish, Latin, and then there is all of the Alien races that can represent any unknown diffrences and things like Cerberus make for a great contrasting reflection to our own Recent history even in the United states ( such at the Neo N A Z I s or the KKK or even the black panthers ) then there is the sexual diversity, and then Idealogical diversity, with many refrences to both old testiment, budism, and greek paganism, and then there is the Geth story in this same theme ( i wont give spoilers ) or hell even shamanism is represented within the Krogan religouse belifes.  

Modifié par Howlsfury, 24 mars 2013 - 07:58 .

[Fiacre]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Show me one single post demanding Bioware "represent homosexuals over the rest" 

Nice strawman you built there

And yes. let Bioware do what they want. Since David Gaider has been quite clear DAI will be fair and inclusive just like DA2 I take it you will not come here whine that there is a gay guy on your game, or that there are too many "bi" people on your party. Like the OP in this thread and his previous thread.

Respect the developers ? Please do, they have been clear DA2 sexuality inclusiveness is here to stay. Don't like it, don't play it.

While I didn't agree with their last thread, that's not what they're doing. The last one was about the companions explicitly identifying as bisexual rather than it being left ambiguous (which we argued against) and this one is about wanting a gay party member, because outside your potential romance there aren't a lot of same sex couples/attraction (exclusively) to the same sex shown.

[Dagr88]

The way I see Thedas:

Army of corrupted monsters under your feat. Streets and countryside filled with bandits/mercenaries/Dalish/bears and wolfs. Pirates at sea. Very rare swooping dragons. Possessed skeletons and demons at the cemeteries. Any person can potentially be a mind controlling Blood Mage or even an abomination. Qun and their "lightning shooting" canons.

After playing DA:O and DA2 I got impression that most people in Thedas don't care who sleeps with whom. They have other, bigger problems.


And if someone is talking about ancient times (Rome, Greece):
Sex is sex. Love is love. Procreation is procreation. If you are a noble, some things are expected of you, no matter what your sexual preferences are (bloodline continuation). If you are peasant nobody cares... Pretty much Thedas all over again.

Modifié par Dagr88, 24 mars 2013 - 08:12 .