220 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Gaider has said that player sexual romances are here to stay. Fine.

I could take or leave romances entirely, but yes - they are here to stay.

That does not mean that having an NPC in the game who is openly gay, but not romanceable, is inherently the most evil thing ever to suggest.

If anything, it is a bigoted mindset to block this. Because what you are saying is that everyone who is gay or has an open sexuality also is of a more sexually willing or promiscuous nature. Only straight companions in DA2 were able to resist the apparently unstoppable sexual allure of Hawke. Saying you would not want an openly gay character to fill the role of a companion who we cannot have sex with is implying that no one who is of a sexuality other than heterosexual can deny their base sexual nature.

Which is ludicrous.

[Nefla]

I like the idea of being able to flirt with an NPC or companion who turns you down, I don't care the reason. I think it would be cool to try to flirt with people who aren't romanceable like Aveline.

[xAmilli0n]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But that brings me to another point - whatever the player's sexuality, that doesn't mean the character you are playing has to be that same sexuality. Or that same gender.

I have played every Bioware game that offered a gender option with both types, as I have with many other games. I played a lesbian and a gay man and a bi sexual of both sexes in DA:O. That is not indicative of my own identity - they are characters in a role-playing game.

Do I disparage any of content to be purposefully exclusive of others? Of course not. But the concept that everyone has to be romanceable, in and of itself, is ludicrous. Couple that with that every character must also be player sexual and it lends itself less to narrative building and more virtual pimping, in my own (possibly myopic) view.

If people are going to get up in arms about a gay character that a straight PC can't romance, or a straight character a gay PC can't romance, or some other type of permutation where any character a player can make can bang someone another player-created character can't... well, then I say it is time to remind people that romances are not the core-content of any game that Bioware makes. That it is side content and content which should not be expected to be a guarantee at all.

Go and try and lock down a BG2 romance without permanently destroying it without a guide. It's nearly impossible. Heck, they are often hard to even activate.

THAT'S what romances should be. Hard, unlikely and difficult to find. Instead of a constant conga line of people wanting to throw themselves at you.

Totally agree.

[Plaintiff]

Foshizzlin wrote...

See? That's what I mean. No offense, Plaintiff, but it's when people take Bioware's games and turn them into some argument for or against homosexuality/heterosexuality. I've seen the same dumb complaint from both sides about every Bioware RPG since Mass Effect 1. "They have gay romances, they're ignoring us heterosexuals and are oppressing us!" "They have straight romances, they're ignoring us homosexuals and are oppressing us!" This is a game, not real life.

The depiction of homosexuals and homosexual relationships in media generally is a very important, very public and highly politicized issue. These games can and should be examined through the lens of that wider context, and I'm certain Bioware knew exactly what it was in for when it started making same-sex content. The developers are not morons.

Bioware shouldn't be cruel or mean to either sexuality, but why would you buy a game just to focus on its appeal to opposite or same-sex relationships?

Why would I specifically buy a game that features same-sex relationships? Because I am gay, and I like videogames, but virtually no videogame has any gay characters at all, let alone a gay protagonist that I can play as. Any game that does is automatically going to get more attention from me, simply for the rarity value. In fact, the lack of homosexual content is the major reason why I held off on purchasing Mass Effect 1 and 2, and also the major reason I won't be replaying them any time soon, if ever.

I'm not going to roleplay as a straight character if an alternative is presented to me. I have to play a straight character every single time I load up Assassin's Creed, or Deus Ex, or literally any videogame at all.

Bioware shouldn't be made to appeal to either side, they should do what they want. I'm straight, not against LGBT/heterosexual rights whatsoever, but I don't think it's wrong to say "Hey guys, this is a video game meant for fun, can we not have the issue of heterosexuality vs. homosexuality be the focal point?"

You know what's fun for me? Seeing my sexuality represented fairly in a videogame.

You might not be against LGBT rights, but you clearly don't understand why media depictions of alternative sexuality are important to the issue.

It's like if they made Skyrim as an Obama vs. Romney argument, or if they made Mass Effect have something to do with drug legalization.

It's not like either of those things at all. If Skyrim had included Obama and Romney as characters in its videogame, and had a quest requiring you to help one or the other of them, then Bethesda would have no right to complain if the game incited political debate.

Politics and these things shouldn't be made into an argument for any side of any political debate. It's interesting to talk about them, sure, but players should stop constantly badgering Bioware and demanding they appeal to their own interests. Bioware has a lot more to focus on.

By that logic, nobody should be requesting any features at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 01:22 .

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...
What you and others are basically doing is refusing to suspend your disbelief that Thedas has a more open approach to sexuality. Yet you are perfectly willing to suspend your disbelief that dragons, magic and darkspawn don't exist.

Guess what ? Bioware and David Gaider have been pretty clear that the gender roles openness is here to stay. So it is part of the deal and you either learn to suspend your disbelief for gender as you do for magic, or you stop playing the game. Onus is on you, not on others.

Sheesh!

Give me an example of Thedas' open approach to sexuality that doesn't directly involve the PC and isn't a ****house. Are there any other same sex couples? No, there aren't. The only couples you run across are M/F. If BioWare wants me to suspend disbelief about the sexuality in their universe, then maybe they should create it outside your character instead of simply asking that I accept it based on nothing.

You know what BioWare has been really good at until recently? Characterization. I play straight females mostly because I am a straight female. F/F relationships don't interest me as a player. You know what I got in DA2? Fenris, who was angry at injustice and wanted to have sex with me and Anders, who was angry at injustice and wanted to have sex with me. Those are not interesting characters. The most interesting characters were the ones BioWare bothered to develop beyond their "click the heart" dialogue options. 

I think the onus is on BioWare to create interesting characters and yes, sexuality is part of that.

[Fast Jimmy]

Politics and these things shouldn't be made into an argument for any side of any political debate. It's interesting to talk about them, sure, but players should stop constantly badgering Bioware and demanding they appeal to their own interests. Bioware has a lot more to focus on.

By that logic, nobody should be requesting any features at all.

The forum rules specifically forbid discussions on politics. So Bioware must not view their romance content as political in nature, or else this and nearly every other romance thread that mentions the idea of SS relations would be locked.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Jeffonl1]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But that brings me to another point - whatever the player's sexuality, that doesn't mean the character you are playing has to be that same sexuality. Or that same gender.

I have played every Bioware game that offered a gender option with both types, as I have with many other games. I played a lesbian and a gay man and a bi sexual of both sexes in DA:O. That is not indicative of my own identity - they are characters in a role-playing game.

Do I disparage any of content to be purposefully exclusive of others? Of course not. But the concept that everyone has to be romanceable, in and of itself, is ludicrous. Couple that with that every character must also be player sexual and it lends itself less to narrative building and more virtual pimping, in my own (possibly myopic) view.

If people are going to get up in arms about a gay character that a straight PC can't romance, or a straight character a gay PC can't romance, or some other type of permutation where any character a player can make can bang someone another player-created character can't... well, then I say it is time to remind people that romances are not the core-content of any game that Bioware makes. That it is side content and content which should not be expected to be a guarantee at all.

Go and try and lock down a BG2 romance without permanently destroying it without a guide. It's nearly impossible. Heck, they are often hard to even activate.

THAT'S what romances should be. Hard, unlikely and difficult to find. Instead of a constant conga line of people wanting to throw themselves at you.

Totally agree.

This.

[InfinitePaths]

Foshizzlin wrote...
 Bioware shouldn't be made to appeal to either side, they should do what they want. I'm straight, not against LGBT/heterosexual rights whatsoever, but I don't think it's wrong to say "Hey guys, this is a video game meant for fun,n.

Would it be a fun game to you if every character in a game is gay?

[Plaintiff]

Merrill is angry at injustice, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Isabela doesn't care about anything except sex, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Varric and Aveline and Sebastian are angry at injustice, but don't want to have sex with Hawke.

Of course all the characters are going to look the same if you grossly oversimplify them like that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 01:28 .

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...

Merrill is angry at injustice, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Isabela doesn't care about anything except sex, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Varric and Aveline and Sebastian are angry at injustice, but don't want to have sex with Hawke.

Of course all the characters are going to look the same if you grossly oversimplify them like that.

Frankly, the characters are simplified, which was my point. There was too much emphasis on the romance and far less on the characters themselves.

[xAmilli0n]

Foshizzlin wrote...

 I think Bioware should give the PC a chance to go for anyone, but some people just simply won't want the PC's advances. Bioware did fantastically in DAII with Aveline on this.

Agreed, but I think 'anyone' should be changed to main cast and important NPCs, just for practicality.

[Monica21]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...
Would it be a fun game to you if every character in a game is gay?

Depends on the game. If it's Fable (which I hated) then no, because I thought it was a terrible game. If it's NWN2, then yes, because I think it's a fantastic game. (And I can't end up with my LI anyway, so.. eh.)

[Renmiri1]

Let us count the ways a videogame isn't realistic ?

1) It is not 3D. All images are representations of 3D shapes, done in a 2d screen
2) It has no smell or taste
3) Art style is not "realistic" as no scenery on earth has dominant muted tones
4) An entire vibrant city is represented by a few merchants and a few NPCs
5) Giant spiders do not exist
6) Dragons do not exist
7) Qunari do not exist
8) Elves do not exist
9) Darkspawn do not exist
...
9,999) A well balanced contingent of gender roles does not exist

When you come here whining that #9,999 is "not realistic" and breaks your immersion, the only person not seeing what is going on in your head is you.

You refuse to suspend your disbelief for one thing while gladly suspending your disbelief for many others. Why ? Only you can know the answer, but I have a huge suspicion I know why.

But the bottom line is I don't really care since Bioware said the gender equality is here to stay. So - gasp - for the first time in your life you will either have to adapt to seeing gender roles that aren't the ones you are used to, or have to take your discomfort elsewhere.

@Monica21 - Guess you missed Senechel and Serendipity or Wade. Or Varric with Bianca  Or Anders and Karl... The characters are there you just didn't notice. I understand that you would like that non hetero relationships stay invisible and easy to ignore but tough, that isn't going to happen. Play the gmae for the thousands of other things that make it a great game, or don't, your choice.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 01:45 .

[Fast Jimmy]

krul2k wrote...

note to self in future when one does not have fun in a game join the game developers forum and continually cry about all the "injustices" in said game an make the ppl who actually do enjoy the developers games to leave the forum

You've just discovered the real purpose of the BSN. 

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...
.........

Who are you talking to?

[Fast Jimmy]

Monica21 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
.........

Who are you talking to?

Agreed. No one is talking about realism. And no one is talking about gender roles. 

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Politics and these things shouldn't be made into an argument for any side of any political debate. It's interesting to talk about them, sure, but players should stop constantly badgering Bioware and demanding they appeal to their own interests. Bioware has a lot more to focus on.

By that logic, nobody should be requesting any features at all.

The forum rules specifically forbid discussions on politics. So Bioware must not view their romance content as political in nature, or else this and nearly every other romance thread that mentions the idea of SS relations would be locked.

Nearly every thread that discusses S/S relations is locked, eventually.

But the act of including same-sex characters and relationships is absolutely a poitical one, whether Bioware realises it or not, and every time David Gaider says "fairness and fun gameplay win out", he is making a political statement, whether he realises it or not. Even divorced from the specific issue of homosexual depictions in media, "fairness" is a political concept all on its own.

[Plaintiff]

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Merrill is angry at injustice, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Isabela doesn't care about anything except sex, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Varric and Aveline and Sebastian are angry at injustice, but don't want to have sex with Hawke.

Of course all the characters are going to look the same if you grossly oversimplify them like that.

Frankly, the characters are simplified, which was my point. There was too much emphasis on the romance and far less on the characters themselves.

No, they aren't, and there is ample content for each character whether you romance them or not.