220 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Merrill is angry at injustice, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Isabela doesn't care about anything except sex, and wants to have sex with Hawke. Varric and Aveline and Sebastian are angry at injustice, but don't want to have sex with Hawke.

Of course all the characters are going to look the same if you grossly oversimplify them like that.

Frankly, the characters are simplified, which was my point. There was too much emphasis on the romance and far less on the characters themselves.

No, they aren't, and there is ample content for each character whether you romance them or not.

Agree to disagree then. The most interesting characters in DA2 are the ones I can't romance. 

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Would you stop being a baby and go play another game if fluid sexuality bothers you that much?

Fluid sexuality isn't so much bothersome as it is boring. Oh, there are zero limitations on who I can have sex with/fall in love with? Excellent! Exactly what I want in a game! Except really not. Nobody is like that. Granted no one shoots fireballs from their fingers either so I take the point about realism, but at the same time, why would all of my companions want to have sex with me? That doesn't serve to create choice for the PC, it serves to whitewash everyone's sexuality to the point where it's meaningless.

And yes, I know that Varric and Aveline never wanted to have sex with my PC and were firmly friendzoned, but they were so firmly friendzoned that they never noticed if I flirted with them.

QED

[Plaintiff]

Foshizzlin wrote...

To Plaintiff

1. Gameplay, not politicization, should be Bioware's focus. I totally, 100% support LGBT issues, entirely, but I don't want that to be what Dragon Age is all about. It shouldn't be what it's all about, as important as the real life issue is. This is a video game. The number 1, number 1 most important thing about any video game is its quality of gameplay. End of story. Sexual rights can take a role too, sure, but Bioware devs should not wake up every morning and be expected to think "Hmm, how are we gonna handle the straight vs. gay argument today?"

When you include romance content, you make romance part of the gameplay, and when you favour one group over others generally, or  make the concious decision to make all groups as equal as possible, you open yourself up to criticism on that front, and should be prepared for that.

2. If you're refusing to buy games because they lack homosexual content, I respect that and understand it. However, because you don't buy them doesn't make them terrible games that are wrong. Individual interests are not the most important thing, because everyone has differing opinions. It'd be great if Bioware made more open relationship options, that's what I want, but they shouldn't feel forced and nagged by the community to make specific archetype sexuality characters just to appease the community. You'd get shallow, uninteresting characters there for nothing more than sex. No one wants that.

They shouldn't be doing it to appeal to any community. They should be doing it because it's the right thing to do.

Nobody, least of all me, is asking that they focus solely on the character's sexuality to the exclusion of all other facets of their character. That would be just as offensive as not including homosexual characters at all.

3. Homosexuality is depicted as perfectly normal in Dragon Age. Heterosexuality is depicted as perfectly normal in Dragon Age. Certain characters, like certain people in real life, just aren't attracted to the same sex. Likewise, certain people aren't attracted to the opposite sex. You can't say in real life that heterosexuals are all bigoted people intent on oppressing you, just like you can't say that homosexuals are all disrespectful people trying to force their ideas on you and get rid of yours. Neither of those is true. If Bioware wants to make characters opposed to heterosexuality or homosexuality or both, so be it. It's their game, their money, their choice. They should focus more on gameplay than appeasing both crowds of the sexual spectrum.

I never said that writing biogted characters makes the writers bigots. That's obviously not true. I think you don't understand my argument.

But if the Bioware writers are going to include socio-political issues like sexuality or race or gender equality in their games, then they have to be prepared to have their depiction of those issues be critically examined, just like every other aspect of the game is critically examined.

4. Features aren't the same as political debates. I'm not requesting Dragon Age to allow casual drug usage in order to make drug users feel freer and more appealed to in real life, for example. I don't feel like I need to demand heterosexual romances to make me, a heterosexual, feel better about the game. I could care less if Dragon Age had 100% homosexual relationships and not a single heterosexual one. It's a game, I play it for the gameplay, not to see how my orientation is catered to. Both sides, straight and gay, have argued before on this, and I don't see the point of it.

Any time anyone asks for any feature, they're doing it because they want it, which means they are "badgering" Bioware to cater to their personal interests. Why they want it doesn't matter.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 01:52 .

[Plaintiff]

Foshizzlin wrote...
Except Monica didn't at all mention suspension of disbelief, how realism should be removed/impacted, etc. I think "common sense" is better than realism. People shouldn't be flocking to have sex with the PC. Some characters can be enamored, sure, but not every single person you ever meet should be willing to get it on with you.

Not every single character in DA2 is willing to get it on with Hawke, so what's the problem?

[Renmiri1]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Except Monica didn't at all mention suspension of disbelief, how realism should be removed/impacted, etc. I think "common sense" is better than realism. People shouldn't be flocking to have sex with the PC. Some characters can be enamored, sure, but not every single person you ever meet should be willing to get it on with you.

And Hawke should not be able to defeat an Ogre while half dead tired and on the run.  And should not be able to roam Kirkwall as a mage without being locked in the Gallows. And should not be able to win against a larger band of fully rested mercenaries when she arrives in Kirkwall.

Hawke / The Warden are exceptional in many ways but the only thing that bothers you and Monica is the sexuality.

Going back to willing suspension of disbelief, you do it for all the thousands of ways Hawke is special, you refuse to do it for LIs.

Why ?

Don't bother answering, it is not important TO ME, it is only relevant to you, to decide if DAI is worth buying or not, because the current gender roles are here to stay.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 01:56 .

[Plaintiff]

Foshizzlin wrote...

If Bioware hears nothing but "Make us these kinds/oriented characters!" from either side constantly from its fanbase, they'll get the hint. I'm saying that instead of all of us arguing over who's going to be an S/S LI or an O/S LI, we should be considering the truly important thing, the gameplay.

Yeah, Bioware can have their stuff examined, but just because they don't have a certain number of heterosexual or homosexual characters doesn't make them favoriting bigots of either side. Restricting the PC to only certain characters to flirt with is a cause of this I think, and opening up the player to any major character, but perhaps making some characters reject the PC (just like Aveline can in DAII), would be brilliant.

I never said that it did.

Most videogames just don't have any gay charaters at all. That doesn't make the writers bigots, but it does mean that the homosexual community is being ignored.

I never said it was a deliberate act of malice.

[Nefla]

I...don't know anyone who plays a BioWare game for the gameplay rather than the story or characters. Maybe ME3.

[Plaintiff]

Foshizzlin wrote...
Exactly, so allow Hawke to freely be of either persuasion with plenty of people on both sides to accept or deny his/her advances. Bioware just doesn't need to have this whole numerical tally system I saw a lot of people demanding for ME3 a while back, like saying "Two straights, two bis, one gay, gay community is getting ignored" or "Two straights, too many bis/gays, straights are getting ignored". Let Bioware do what they damn well please.

But in ME 1 2 and 3, the gay community is being ignored and underserved. And so are straight women, for that matter.

I could stop saying so, but it wouldn't change the facts of the situation.

"Plenty of people on either side" is fine, but why shouldn't we ask for both sides to be equal in number?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 02:06 .

[Renmiri1]

Yes, I get it that you want the PC and companions sexuality to be examined without any context. Because then it gets easy to say "it's not realistic".

But the fact is that the PC is special in many ways, not just in it's ability to get companions interested on him / her. And another fact that is conveniently shoved out of the way is that the entire universe of DA is not realistic.

To be able to play and be entertained by something "not realistic" you need to use "suspension of disbelief", hence my quoting of wikipedia. It is what you and I and anyone who plays a videogame, watches a movie, reads a book or watch a play or a magic act does. And each of us does it willingly, to have fun. But you are not willing to do it for some minor aspect of the PC and you expect Bioware and all the other fans to adjust to your tastes.

Foshizzlin wrote...

Whether a character is heterosexual or homosexual and the amount of characters of either orientation is not a major issue in the games and should not be..

Then why are you posting non stop to get it changed to cater to your tastes ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 02:07 .

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Hawke / The Warden are exceptional in many ways but the only thing that bothers you and Monica is the sexuality.

You're wrong, and I've said that you're wrong, but I'll say it again. YOU'RE WRONG. Sexuality does not bother me. I actually said it doesn't bother me. And then I said that all of your friends wanting to have sex with you is boring. That is not a bigoted statement about sexuality, it's an opinion about the characters. They were boring. 

Going back to willing suspension of disbelief, you do it for all the thousands of ways Hawke is special, you refuse to do it for LIs.

Why ?

Well, at this point I'll just safely assume that you haven't actually read my posts and are continuing to argue a point you think I made an hour ago but didn't actually make.

Don't bother answering, it is not important TO ME, it is only relevant to you, to decide if DAI is worth buying or not, because the current gender roles are here to stay.

I already knew that. Thanks for your input.

[Monica21]

Foshizzlin wrote...
You came in out of nowhere copypasting Wikipedia quotes about "suspension of disbelief" and I don't think anyone understands what you're talking about right now. (Others please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Not a clue what Ren's talking about.

[Plaintiff]

Renmiri1 thinks the debate is about "realism" (which, in her defense, is a bull**** excuse that is often brought up when complaining about the DA2 romances).

Monica21 thinks the debate is about whether or not the romances are interesting.

So they're arguing at cross-purposes.

[xAmilli0n]

Plaintiff wrote...

"Plenty of people on either side" is fine, but why shouldn't we ask for both sides to be equal in number?

I don't disagree with you, but what if the story doesn't call for enough characters to have it be equal?  Should they add another character specifically to balance it out?

I don't know your stance on how things were handled in DAII, but it does look like that is what we shall seee in the future.  2 male and 2 female that are essentially playersexual.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 24 mars 2013 - 02:13 .

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
Most videogames just don't have any gay charaters at all. That doesn't make the writers bigots, but it does mean that the homosexual community is being ignored.

I never said it was a deliberate act of malice.

I agree with this, but that leads me to the question of why every romance option is bisexual. That's the part that takes me out of the romance. The fact that Fenris would say the exact same thing to me whether I was a male or female PC is where I find his romance boring. As a character I don't know that, but as a player I do. What's wrong with having straight romance options and gay romance options?

[Renmiri1]

1) It already is on DA2, Aveline and Varric blow you off
2) "Tailored sexuality characters" ??? Say what now ?

If it's minor and is helping a lot of players enjoy the game more, why are you so up in arms about it ? Your wish is already in the game, why the fuss ?