220 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Most videogames just don't have any gay charaters at all. That doesn't make the writers bigots, but it does mean that the homosexual community is being ignored.

I never said it was a deliberate act of malice.

I agree with this, but that leads me to the question of why every romance option is bisexual. That's the part that takes me out of the romance. The fact that Fenris would say the exact same thing to me whether I was a male or female PC is where I find his romance boring. As a character I don't know that, but as a player I do. What's wrong with having straight romance options and gay romance options?

Nothing really, as long as there's an equal representation of both (or at the very least, not as blatant an imbalance as ME3 had).

But homosexual relationships are not different from heterosexual relationships, so I don't think a bisexual character should treat the player any differently based on their gender.

You can`t make children in a homosexual relationship. Thats kind of a big difference.

There are quite a few heterosexual relationships where children can't be made, so that's a poor argument.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

You can`t make children in a homosexual relationship. Thats kind of a big difference.

I think you just gave me a brain tumor.

Children have nothing to do with relationships. People do not get together for the sole purpose of breeding.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 03:12 .

[Rawgrim]

Monica21 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Most videogames just don't have any gay charaters at all. That doesn't make the writers bigots, but it does mean that the homosexual community is being ignored.

I never said it was a deliberate act of malice.

I agree with this, but that leads me to the question of why every romance option is bisexual. That's the part that takes me out of the romance. The fact that Fenris would say the exact same thing to me whether I was a male or female PC is where I find his romance boring. As a character I don't know that, but as a player I do. What's wrong with having straight romance options and gay romance options?

Nothing really, as long as there's an equal representation of both (or at the very least, not as blatant an imbalance as ME3 had).

But homosexual relationships are not different from heterosexual relationships, so I don't think a bisexual character should treat the player any differently based on their gender.

You can`t make children in a homosexual relationship. Thats kind of a big difference.

There are quite a few heterosexual relationships where children can't be made, so that's a poor argument.

There are more homosexual relatioships that heterosexual ones that can`t make babies. Anyway, i was just pointing out an example of how those can be different.

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Well so does rampant bisexuality. Prove that it doesn't.

Four LI's is "rampant bisexuality"?

According to most of the people who argue against it, yes.

It's actually the opposite though. No one in Thedas is bi except for the LIs. That's it. That's a major reason why bisexual LI's don't ring true to me as far as the "Thedas has freer sexuality" argument.

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff,

Out of interest, is it only Bioware games that you demand this standard, or do you expect this equality of representation from all forms of media and literature?

I'm openly critical of the media industry in general, when it comes to the issue of equal representation. Not just for the LGBT community, but for ethnic minorities.

Surely it is enough that we demand that negative stereotypes are not glorifed rather than demanding equal representation? It's just not possible or desirable that every new story written from this day forth be required to equally represent every single minority group... I can't fathom how this would work.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You can`t make children in a homosexual relationship. Thats kind of a big difference.

I think you just gave me a brain tumor.

Children have nothing to do with relationships. People do not get together for the sole purpose of breeding.

Not for the sole reason. But alot of people do want kids sometime down the line.

[Monica21]

Rawgrim wrote...
There are more homosexual relatioships that heterosexual ones that can`t make babies. Anyway, i was just pointing out an example of how those can be different.

I believe that Plaintiff was talking about how the couples interacted, not about their physical capabilities.

[Rawgrim]

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff,

Out of interest, is it only Bioware games that you demand this standard, or do you expect this equality of representation from all forms of media and literature?

I'm openly critical of the media industry in general, when it comes to the issue of equal representation. Not just for the LGBT community, but for ethnic minorities.

Surely it is enough that we demand that negative stereotypes are not glorifed rather than demanding equal representation? It's just not possible or desirable that every new story written from this day forth be required to equally represent every single minority group... I can't fathom how this would work.

If they get equal representation, they arn`t really a minority anymore, I guess. But i do agree that they should get a stronger representation than they do now.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You can`t make children in a homosexual relationship. Thats kind of a big difference.

I think you just gave me a brain tumor.

Children have nothing to do with relationships. People do not get together for the sole purpose of breeding.

Not for the sole reason. But alot of people do want kids sometime down the line.

Yes, but children and relationships are not inherently connected. You can have a child without a relationship and you can enter into a relationship without having children.

And if a homosexual couple wants a child, there are numerous ays that they can obtain one, all just as valid as the traditional heterosexual method of infant production.

Except kidnapping. That's not okay.

[Rawgrim]

Monica21 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
There are more homosexual relatioships that heterosexual ones that can`t make babies. Anyway, i was just pointing out an example of how those can be different.

I believe that Plaintiff was talking about how the couples interacted, not about their physical capabilities.

I know. But if one of them wants to have a child sometime during their life, it will come up. I see his point, though. don\\ t worry about it.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You can`t make children in a homosexual relationship. Thats kind of a big difference.

I think you just gave me a brain tumor.

Children have nothing to do with relationships. People do not get together for the sole purpose of breeding.

Not for the sole reason. But alot of people do want kids sometime down the line.

Yes, but children and relationships are not inherently connected. You can have a child without a relationship and you can enter into a relationship without having children.

And if a homosexual couple wants a child, there are numerous ays that they can obtain one, all just as valid as the traditional heterosexual method of infant production.

Except kidnapping. That's not okay.

Quite right. But my point was: The topic will\\most like will come up.

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff,

Out of interest, is it only Bioware games that you demand this standard, or do you expect this equality of representation from all forms of media and literature?

I'm openly critical of the media industry in general, when it comes to the issue of equal representation. Not just for the LGBT community, but for ethnic minorities.

Surely it is enough that we demand that negative stereotypes are not glorifed rather than demanding equal representation? It's just not possible or desirable that every new story written from this day forth be required to equally represent every single minority group... I can't fathom how this would work.

It's not enough to do away with negative stereotypes if the the trade-off is not showing minorities at all.

I am not asking for every single narrative to meet some sort of Equal Opportunities quota. I'm saying that there should be more narratives that feature minorities. As it stands, white straight people, and white straight men in particular, have been grossly overrepresented in media since forever.

This is a particular problem in videogaming, where even the female protagonist is an endangered species.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 03:27 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff,

Out of interest, is it only Bioware games that you demand this standard, or do you expect this equality of representation from all forms of media and literature?

I'm openly critical of the media industry in general, when it comes to the issue of equal representation. Not just for the LGBT community, but for ethnic minorities.

Surely it is enough that we demand that negative stereotypes are not glorifed rather than demanding equal representation? It's just not possible or desirable that every new story written from this day forth be required to equally represent every single minority group... I can't fathom how this would work.

It's not enough to do away with negative stereotypes if the the trade-off is not showing minorities at all.

I am not asking for every single narrative to meet some sort of Equal Opportunities quota. I'm saying that there should be more narratives that do feature minorities. As it stands, white straight people, and white straight men in particular, have been grossly overrepresented in media since forever.

This is very true. Still...you have to admit that there has (in the last 10 years) been a steady increase when it comes to inclusion of minorities too. So there has been improvement.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

This is very true. Still...you have to admit that there has (in the last 10 years) been a steady increase when it comes to inclusion of minorities too. So there has been improvement.

Yes, and I'm very happy to see it.

However, I'm coming from the stance that equality is something that we (meaning humans generally) should have always had. Nobody should ever have to fight for basic things that others take for granted.

The world may never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 03:31 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

This is very true. Still...you have to admit that there has (in the last 10 years) been a steady increase when it comes to inclusion of minorities too. So there has been improvement.

Yes, and I'm very happy to see it.

However, I'm coming from the stance that equality is something that we (meaning humans generally) should have always had. Nobody should ever have to fight for basic things that others take for granted.

The world may never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying.

The romans and the greeks had it. It got changed when christianity came along. And Islam, for that matter.

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff,

Out of interest, is it only Bioware games that you demand this standard, or do you expect this equality of representation from all forms of media and literature?

I'm openly critical of the media industry in general, when it comes to the issue of equal representation. Not just for the LGBT community, but for ethnic minorities.

Surely it is enough that we demand that negative stereotypes are not glorifed rather than demanding equal representation? It's just not possible or desirable that every new story written from this day forth be required to equally represent every single minority group... I can't fathom how this would work.

It's not enough to do away with negative stereotypes if the the trade-off is not showing minorities at all.

I am not asking for every single narrative to meet some sort of Equal Opportunities quota. I'm saying that there should be more narratives that feature minorities. As it stands, white straight people, and white straight men in particular, have been grossly overrepresented in media since forever.

This is a particular problem in videogaming, where even the female protagonist is an endangered species.

Yes but games are products created to market demand. More (potential) female gamers = more female game protagonists. It would be a stretch to conclude that the current imbalance is due to a game industry effort to subjugate or villefy women...

There is a difference between propogating negative stereotypes (which gaming has certainly been guilty of) and satisying a market.

Equal representation also creates a characterisation homogenising effect,  where characters may indeed be inserted to fill a quota rather than to fill a narrative purpose.

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...
Yes but games are products created to market demand. More (potential) female gamers = more female game protagonists. It would be a stretch to conclude that the current imbalance is due to a game industry effort to subjugate or villefy women...

Sure, but one must consider why there are so few female gamers. Are women just naturally inclined to dislike videogames? Or is it because the industry and gaming culture makes them feel unwelcome? I suspect the latter.

It's up to the videogame industry to tap into the female market by making female protagonists that they can relate to. Less Bayonetta, more Faith, Chell and the revamped Lara Croft.

There is a difference between propogating negative stereotypes (which gaming has certainly been guilty of) and satisying a market.

Well that depends. Often in videogaming it seems that the two go hand in hand. The propogation of negative stereotypes surrounding women satisfies a market that wants female characters to look pretty while sitting quietly and waiting to be rescued.

Equal representation also creates a characterisation homogenising effect,  where characters may indeed be inserted to fill a quota rather than to fill a narrative purpose.

But characters can both fill a quota and a narrative purpose.

But unless your character's gender, colour or sexuality is absolutely integral to the plot, then why not make them female or gay, or an ethnic minority, or all three at once, just for the hell of it? Why must the assumed default always be a straight white male?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 03:52 .

[Plaintiff]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Because some people do make straight, white characters. Some people prefer that, and because they do it doesn't imply any ill-intentions. A lot of homosexuals won't make straight characters. That isn't bad either.

Except the most famous gay writers do create straight characters most of the time, because that's the way to acheive mainstream success. They have no choice if they want their work to ever see the light of day.

Chuck Palahniuk is gay, but the characters of Fight Club are not. Clive Barker is gay, but most of his characters are not. Matt Bomer is a gay actor, but most of the characters he plays are straight. Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but the character he plays in How I Met Your Mother is an overwhelmingly straight womanizer.

I could go on forever.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 04:01 .

[Enigmatick]

Except the most famous gay writers do create straight characters most of the time, because that's the way to acheive mainstream success. They have no choice if they want their work to ever see the light of day.

Chuck Palahniuk is gay, but the characters of Fight Club are not. Clive Barker is gay, but most of his characters are not. Matt Bomer is a gay actor, but most of the characters he plays are straight. Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but the character he plays in How I Met Your Mother is an overwhelmingly straight womanizer.

I could go on forever

How do actors control the sexual preference of the characters the play?

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...
Yes but games are products created to market demand. More (potential) female gamers = more female game protagonists. It would be a stretch to conclude that the current imbalance is due to a game industry effort to subjugate or villefy women...

Sure, but one must consider why there are so few female gamers? Are women just naturally inclined to dislike videogames? Or is it because the industry and gaming culture makes them feel unwelcome? I suspect the latter.

There is a difference between propogating negative stereotypes (which gaming has certainly been guilty of) and satisying a market.

Well that depends. Often in videogaming it seems that the two go hand in hand. The propogation of negative stereotypes surrounding women satisfies a market that wants female characters to look pretty while sitting quietly and waiting to be rescued.

Equal representation also creates a characterisation homogenising effect,  where characters may indeed be inserted to fill a quota rather than to fill a narrative purpose.

But characters can both fill a quota and a narrative purpose.

But unless your character's gender, colour or sexuality is absolutely integral to the plot, then why not make them female or gay, or an ethnic minority, or all three at once, just for the hell of it? Why must the assumed default always be a straight white male?

I agree that women have been turned off by various facets of male orientated gaming. Luckily, developers have started to tap into the female market by changing gaming culture. This is a good thing.

I think you may be being a little too harsh on male gamers. I don't think that male gamers WANT female characters to sit in the corner and wait to be rescued but rather, It was easier for developers to focus on allowing male gamers to play out their own power fantasies, rather than focusing on female characters. Not saying that this is a good thing but I don't think there was any malice in it...

Regarding the last point, I guess I am trying to say that if a narrative must fill a myriad of minority quotas, it is in effect limiting itself to NOT treating issues such as gender, color or sexuality as integral to the plot. Once again, this is not always a bad thing

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
Except the most famous gay writers do create straight characters most of the time, because that's the way to acheive mainstream success. They have no choice if they want their work to ever see the light of day.

Chuck Palahniuk is gay, but the characters of Fight Club are not. Clive Barker is gay, but most of his characters are not. Matt Bomer is a gay actor, but most of the characters he plays are straight. Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but the character he plays in How I Met Your Mother is an overwhelmingly straight womanizer.

I could go on forever.

And Truman Capote wrote Breakfast at Tiffany's, in which Fred is gay, unlike the movie. Worth pointing out is that he wrote it in 1958. 

Have these writers said that they wrote straight characters because it was the only way they could achieve mainstream success? Because I tend to think of it the same way I think of any story and that's the story they wanted to tell. As for the actors, most actors play someone who is unlike themselves in any number of ways. Neil Patrick Harris is very open about his sexuality and his family, and I sincerely doubt he felt the need to play a straight character as a means of achieving success. 

[Plaintiff]

Enigmatick wrote...

Except the most famous gay writers do create straight characters most of the time, because that's the way to acheive mainstream success. They have no choice if they want their work to ever see the light of day.

Chuck Palahniuk is gay, but the characters of Fight Club are not. Clive Barker is gay, but most of his characters are not. Matt Bomer is a gay actor, but most of the characters he plays are straight. Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but the character he plays in How I Met Your Mother is an overwhelmingly straight womanizer.

I could go on forever

How do actors control the sexual preference of the characters the play?

Actors sometimes get significant input on the devleopment of the character they play, but whether they do or not, they are still a part of the creation process.

The creative industries such as literature and film/television actually have quite a number of prominent homosexual individuals working in a range of capacities, but the number of gay characters in the resulting end products is nothing to write home about.

So clearly, gay people are not creating gay characters. Or at least not that many.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 04:26 .