220 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Except the most famous gay writers do create straight characters most of the time, because that's the way to acheive mainstream success. They have no choice if they want their work to ever see the light of day.

Chuck Palahniuk is gay, but the characters of Fight Club are not. Clive Barker is gay, but most of his characters are not. Matt Bomer is a gay actor, but most of the characters he plays are straight. Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but the character he plays in How I Met Your Mother is an overwhelmingly straight womanizer.

I could go on forever.

And Truman Capote wrote Breakfast at Tiffany's, in which Fred is gay, unlike the movie. Worth pointing out is that he wrote it in 1958. 

Have these writers said that they wrote straight characters because it was the only way they could achieve mainstream success? Because I tend to think of it the same way I think of any story and that's the story they wanted to tell. As for the actors, most actors play someone who is unlike themselves in any number of ways. Neil Patrick Harris is very open about his sexuality and his family, and I sincerely doubt he felt the need to play a straight character as a means of achieving success. 

Whether or not they've explicitly stated it isn't really relevant. It's patently obvious that writing gay characters decreases your chances of acheiving mainstream success.

I assume the stories that Palahniuk and Barker want to tell are the ones that will allow them to continue making buttloads of money. The requirement for the protagonists to be straight is implicit, rather than explicit, but I don't believe that they could somehow be ignorant of it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 04:24 .

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
Whether or not they've explicitly stated it isn't really relevant. It's patently obvious that writing gay characters decreases your chances of acheiving mainstream success. 

I assume the stories that Palahniuk and Barker want to tell are the ones that will allow them to continue making buttloads of money. The requirement for the protagonists to be straight is implicit, rather than explicit, but I don't believe that they could somehow be ignorant of it.

Just off the top of my head, there's Will & Grace, for which one of the supporting characters won an Emmy. Colin Firth was nominated for an Academy Award for A Single Man. Mitch and Cam from Modern Family. Oscar from The Office. Nolan on Revenge is bisexual. I could also go on and on.

My point is that if Clive Barker wanted to write a gay character he could certainly do it. He has the money and the readership. Same for Palahniuk. NPH didn't have to take the role of Barney, but he did, presumably because he's an actor and it's a job. I don't think saying "it's obvious" is true at all, at least not anymore. There has to be some evidence to back up such a contention, not to mention that I think Barker would probably be offended if someone told him they thought he was selling out by writing straight. 

Edited to add that I had to check about Barker. I'm a librarian and the claim wasn't ringing true. I haven't read any of his books, but  many  of them have gay characters. In 1997 he wrote a book called Sacrament with a gay protaganist. I don't think any of these people think "straightness" is somehow being forced upon them.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 mars 2013 - 04:47 .

[Malsumis]

Plaintiff wrote...
Chuck Palahniuk is gay, but the characters of Fight Club are not. Clive Barker is gay, but most of his characters are not. Matt Bomer is a gay actor, but most of the characters he plays are straight. Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but the character he plays in How I Met Your Mother is an overwhelmingly straight womanizer.

Which there is nothing wrong with, just because someone is gay does not mean their work has to include gay themes. If it does, that's great, if it doesn't, that's great too.

Neil Patrick Harris and Matt Bomer are actors, actors play roles that aren't them.

An actors or directors sexuality should have nothing to do with their work. Same goes for writers.

Is their sexuality such a big part of their lives that is should effect the roles they recieve/take? Or the stories and characters they wish to create?

[Plaintiff]

Malsumis wrote...
Which there is nothing wrong with, just because someone is gay does not mean their work has to include gay themes. If it does, that's great, if it doesn't, that's great too.

Neil Patrick Harris and Matt Bomer are actors, actors play roles that aren't them.

An actors or directors sexuality should have nothing to do with their work. Same goes for writers.

Is their sexuality such a big part of their lives that is should effect the roles they recieve/take? Or the stories and characters they wish to create?

Do you actually read anything? I was addressing a comment made, by another poster, that "homosexuals don't create heterosexual characters".

I never said that homosexuals should not be "allowed" to create heterosexual characters. Of course they should be. Anybody can create any kind of character they want for any reason that they want. When did I ever say different?

[Plaintiff]

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Whether or not they've explicitly stated it isn't really relevant. It's patently obvious that writing gay characters decreases your chances of acheiving mainstream success. 

I assume the stories that Palahniuk and Barker want to tell are the ones that will allow them to continue making buttloads of money. The requirement for the protagonists to be straight is implicit, rather than explicit, but I don't believe that they could somehow be ignorant of it.

Just off the top of my head, there's Will & Grace, for which one of the supporting characters won an Emmy. Colin Firth was nominated for an Academy Award for A Single Man. Mitch and Cam from Modern Family. Oscar from The Office. Nolan on Revenge is bisexual. I could also go on and on.

My point is that if Clive Barker wanted to write a gay character he could certainly do it. He has the money and the readership. Same for Palahniuk. NPH didn't have to take the role of Barney, but he did, presumably because he's an actor and it's a job. I don't think saying "it's obvious" is true at all, at least not anymore. There has to be some evidence to back up such a contention, not to mention that I think Barker would probably be offended if someone told him they thought he was selling out by writing straight. 

Edited to add that I had to check about Barker. I'm a librarian and the claim wasn't ringing true. I haven't read any of his books, but  many  of them have gay characters. In 1997 he wrote a book called Sacrament with a gay protaganist. I don't think any of these people think "straightness" is somehow being forced upon them.

I never used the term "selling out", I just assume that every normal person wants to make money from their chosen career. If Clive Barker was selling out I wouldn't have a problem with it. I applaud his success, regardless of what he chooses to write. I'd kill to have even half as much recognition one day.

My problem is with an industry at large that doesn't welcome minority characters generally (although I'll admit that there has been gradual shift towards acceptance), but my original statement was only meant to address the statement that "homosexuals do not create heterosexual characters". Obviously they do.

[Renmiri1]

krul2k wrote...

go change the world where it counts please an leave me my wee delusional space of non reality intact thank you

really tired of ppl screaming injustice on a damn computer game forum an dont have the balls to go out in life an do something about it

I'm glad you don't get to decide DA plot.

You can decide to not play it if it bothers you. And you are the one doing the screaming so  stop the wailing that "isn't realistic", "breaks my immersion", yadda, yadda..  Agreed 100% that is getting awfully old and incredibly tiresome.

You can always "move to Australia where they don't has TEH GAY" Except they do.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 05:10 .

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
My problem is with an industry at large that doesn't welcome minority characters generally (although I'll admit that there has been gradual shift towards acceptance), but my original statement was only meant to address the statement that "homosexuals do not create heterosexual characters". Obviously they do.

What he said was, "A lot of homosexuals won't make straight characters" and I actually thought he was talking about players creating characters in video games, not the artistic license of writers and actors. Anyway, I don't think his statement was as prohibitive as you think.

[Plaintiff]

Renmiri1 wrote...

krul2k wrote...

go change the world where it counts please an leave me my wee delusional space of non reality intact thank you

really tired of ppl screaming injustice on a damn computer game forum an dont have the balls to go out in life an do something about it

I'm glad you don't get to decide DA plot.

You can decide to not play it if it bothers you. And stop the wailing that "isn't realistic", "breaks my immersion", yadda, yadda.. You can also "move to Australia where they don't has TEH GAY" Except they do.

When was that tweet actually posted? 

Australia doesn't even have a president. Our current Prime Minister is a woman.

[Renmiri1]

And by the way, gays aren't the only ones to be discriminated in videogames

http://www.joystiq.c...of-female-lead/


Dontnod Entertainment's Remember Me – set in Neo-Paris 2084, the game stars Nilin, a memory hunter – got a lot of dismissals from publishers thanks to its female lead. For some publishers, successful games and male leads are synonymous, so when creative director Jean-Max Morris and his crew were shopping for publishers, this spurred the cold shoulder.
"We had some that said, 'Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that,'" 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 05:14 .

[Renmiri1]

Plaintiff wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

krul2k wrote...

go change the world where it counts please an leave me my wee delusional space of non reality intact thank you

really tired of ppl screaming injustice on a damn computer game forum an dont have the balls to go out in life an do something about it

I'm glad you don't get to decide DA plot.

You can decide to not play it if it bothers you. And stop the wailing that "isn't realistic", "breaks my immersion", yadda, yadda.. You can also "move to Australia where they don't has TEH GAY" Except they do.

When was that tweet actually posted? 

Australia doesn't even have a president. Our current Prime Minister is a woman.

Yup it was and was mocked by so many places that the account got cancelled. Think it was when Obama came out in favor of gay marriage.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 05:16 .

[Malsumis]

Plaintiff wrote...

Malsumis wrote...
Which there is nothing wrong with, just because someone is gay does not mean their work has to include gay themes. If it does, that's great, if it doesn't, that's great too.

Neil Patrick Harris and Matt Bomer are actors, actors play roles that aren't them.

An actors or directors sexuality should have nothing to do with their work. Same goes for writers.

Is their sexuality such a big part of their lives that is should effect the roles they recieve/take? Or the stories and characters they wish to create?

Do you actually read anything? I was addressing a comment made, by another poster, that "homosexuals don't create heterosexual characters".

I never said that homosexuals should not be "allowed" to create heterosexual characters. Of course they should be. Anybody can create any kind of character they want for any reason that they want. When did I ever say different?

Reading fail on my part. I thought your were stating you had a problem with gay actors playing straight etc. Or that the directors were selling out due to the fact they didn't include a cast of gay characters.

Apologies.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I just think it's funny that you've been able to do less and less with characters (after the last few games, changing armor/appearance, weaponry, and role isn't even guaranteed), but making sure everyone can sleep with anyone and no LI has any preference so nobody can ever get locked out of anything is a priority.

[Monica21]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I just think it's funny that you've been able to do less and less with characters (after the last few games, changing armor/appearance, weaponry, and role isn't even guaranteed), but making sure everyone can sleep with anyone and no LI has any preference so nobody can ever get locked out of anything is a priority.

Indeed. Sex for everyone with anyone! But expect the voiced protaganist to be extremely limiting, also you'll probably not have any idea what you're going to say and then be horrified by it. And don't even think about playing as an elf or dwarf.

[Xilizhra]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I just think it's funny that you've been able to do less and less with characters (after the last few games, changing armor/appearance, weaponry, and role isn't even guaranteed), but making sure everyone can sleep with anyone and no LI has any preference so nobody can ever get locked out of anything is a priority.

\\
The reason for this is obvious: romance inclusion is actually easier than exclusion, nor does it create potential plot issues like racial inclusion apparently would. And it satisfies more people.

[Jeffonl1]

Bioware has been experimenting with story: I am so happy about this!
But whether its always successful or not can be another question.
And this is a game. Parallelism with "reality' (whatever that is, and to what person) is fine (and if we are to have character immersion probably necessary), but to expect that social causes to be resolved in this environment is rather ...well... unlikely. We can explore, symbolically, these issues in a fictional environment but to transfer them outside the game environment is questionable (at best).
Ask for romances, sure. Leave it up to Bioware. We can critic later! (in a mature fashion).
But I think we have moved away from DAO style (non-voiced, therefore more choices) to a more cinematic story (voiced, therefore less choices (limited resources after all). So I think LI will be more restricted.

[Renmiri1]

Err... I am very happy with DA2 as it is, and happy that DG has said DAI will be fair and inclusive like DA2 was.

The screaming and demanding and harassing devs is being done by the babies who can't handle ONE SINGLE GAME where they can neatly fit every person to a label and feel they are getting gay cooties if they get flirted on by Anders.

So OP if you are not asking for any changes, then I agree 100 with you.

the people on this forum declaring themselfs fans of the games yet constantly harassing the devs/writers on sexuality

We are not the ones doing that. The people constantly creating threads and harassing devs are the ones who want male hetero dominant sexualities. We like what is there in DA2. The harassing threads are all asking for Bioware devs to go backwards and be LESS inclusive

Go yell at the right people.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 24 mars 2013 - 06:09 .

[Legbiter]

I think Bioware should just close the forum down until about 2 weeks from release. I just scanned it and it's topic after topic of gaylesbiantrannycispansexual romance requests by sadsacks I don't want to share a fandom with.

[Enigmatick]

I've said in another thread and I'll say it here:Why aren't there any threads with speculation on gameplay that get these many posts does this fandom not care about actually playing the game or is this just a vocal minority thing.