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[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

KingZayd wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

It's called being a Friend.

When I play games with friends, I don't lose deliberately. That defeats the point. I might let a 4 year old win/draw, but an adult? No. It says "I'm so confident that I would win if I tried, and I don't think you could handle it if you lost". It's arrogant and patronising.

Wow, thank you for making me feel like an ass. <_<

I lost because I wanted to. I wanted Garrus to win, and not for pity.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ser Bones wrote...

It's called being a hella good bro! I'm sure Garrus, who was always in shepards shadow, would have srsly gotten a self esteem-gasm from finally being better than shep at something

Not always a good thing...

(Sorry in advance for the nightmares)

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 25 mars 2013 - 12:56 .

[Regan Cousland]

Here's the answer you've been looking for, DeinonSlayer:

The reason people let Garrus win is because it's a scripted video game -- which means that you, the player, know -- with *absolute* certainty -- that you can win the shooting contest by simply *deciding* to win the shootout contest.

What does this mean? It means that Garrus has zero chance of winning that shootout unless you let him. But that doesn't make sense in the context of the story. In the context of the story Garrus would have a *real* chance of winning the shootout. In the context of the story Garrus might *actually BE* better than Shepard with a Sniper rifle.

The fact that the script doesn't allow this possibility makes players feel charitable towards Garrus, who's been a good friend. *Deciding* to win feels like cheating and claiming another easy victory for the legendary (booming voice) COMMANDER SHEPARD.

So from a roleplaying standpoint it's more gratifying to let Garrus win if he's your friend. Voila!

EDIT: What would have been even better than letting Garrus win would have been facing him in an in-game challenge and getting your ass actually handed to you -- or not. In that case *either* outcome would have felt authentic.

Modifié par Regan Cousland, 25 mars 2013 - 01:04 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Regan Cousland wrote...

Here's the answer you've been looking for, DeinonSlayer:

The reason people let Garrus win is because it's a scripted video game -- which means that you, the player, know -- with *absolute* certainty -- that you can win the shooting contest by simply *deciding* to win the shootout contest.

What does this mean? It means that Garrus has zero chance of winning that shootout unless you let him. But that doesn't make sense in the context of the story. In the context of the story Garrus would have a *real* chance of winning the shootout. In the context of the story Garrus might *actually BE* better than Shepard with a Sniper rifle.

The fact that the script doesn't allow this possibility makes players feel charitable towards Garrus, who's been a good friend. *Deciding* to win feels like cheating and claiming another easy victory for the legendary (booming voice) COMMANDER SHEPARD.

So from a roleplaying standpoint it's more gratifying to let Garrus win if he's your friend. Voila!

Laura Shepard could have out-talked Khalisah al-Jilani in ME1, too - but didn't. The "persuade" lines were out-of-character.

Shepard can be roleplayed in ME1 and 2 to have been a Cerberus agent all along. Just takes a little headcanon guiding which choices you pick. I headcanon that two of my Shepards had siblings they lost on Mindoir (each other, in fact - they're two faces of an AU), and this has affected their approach to situations in various ways.

Shepard could be a good enough shot to beat Garrus, or this same Shepard could have been so bad with a sniper rifle in ME1 that (s)he couldn't hit the broadside of an armature from forty feet away. This Shepard cannot realistically out-shoot Garrus. So I click "miss the shot," and thus roleplay accordingly.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 25 mars 2013 - 01:12 .

[Lars10178]

If your going into a fight where you need him to cover your ass, do you want him to feel second rate to you, or do you want to give him a little extra confidence?

[Regan Cousland]

'Ah, "head-canon" ...'

Another excellent and equally valid reason to let Garrus win the shooting contest, DeinonSalyer. We all know Garrus is a master marksman, so if your Shepard is an engineer or an adept, for instance, it's very unlikely he could defeat Garrus in said contest. However, if your Shepard is an infiltrator, he might well win.

But the fact remains that winning or losing ultimately comes down to player choice, which it shouldn't. Leaving it to the player to *let* Garrus win implies that Shepard is the superior shot, whatever Shepard's class, and that kind of thing jars against the sensibilities of devout roleplayers like you and me.

I like the idea of your head-canon former siblings on Mindoir. I did something similar. My MaleShep's background is "ruthless" -- but in my personal head-canon Shepard deeply regrets sending Alliance soldiers to their deaths on Torfan, and he's sworn henceforth to save as many people as he can. Therefore I play him as a paragade on a quest for personal redemption.

Modifié par Regan Cousland, 25 mars 2013 - 01:30 .

[KingZayd]

Lars10178 wrote...

If your going into a fight where you need him to cover your ass, do you want him to feel second rate to you, or do you want to give him a little extra confidence?

Maybe it's good for him to feel the need to prove himself? Maybe letting him win is the path to overconfidence and will lead to him getting killed?

Having a rival means he's more likely to put the practice in.

[Phatose]

Well, I always let him win, mostly because we went up there so we could have one great memory no matter what else happens, and my ego doesn't demand I outshoot him.

Though, from now on I'll go hit the bar before I go visit Garrus and get Shep nice and buzzed, that way I can headcanon it as Shepard being too buzzed to really hit it anyway.

[DeinonSlayer]

Regan Cousland wrote...

'Ah, "head-canon" ...'

Another excellent and equally valid reason to let Garrus win the shooting contest, DeinonSalyer. We all know Garrus is a master marksman, so if your Shepard is an engineer or an adept, for instance, it's very unlikely he could defeat Garrus in said contest. However, if your Shepard is an infiltrator, he might well win.

But the fact remains that winning or losing ultimately comes down to player choice, which it shouldn't. Leaving it to the player to *let* Garrus win implies that Shepard is the superior shot, whatever Shepard's class, and that kind of thing jars against the sensibilities of devout roleplayers like you and me.

I like the idea of your head-canon former siblings on Mindoir. I did something similar. My MaleShep's background is "ruthless" -- but in my personal head-canon Shepard deeply regrets sending Alliance soldiers to their deaths on Torfan, and he's sworn henceforth to save as many people as he can. Therefore a play him as a paragade on a quest for personal redemption.

Sounds like your Shepard and my Shepard would get along.

My canon MaleShep is colonist/ruthless. He and his sister were raised on a farm on Mindoir. Their father lost a brother to the Turian bombardment of Shanxi in the First Contact War, and never let the family forget it. The sister wanted to join the Alliance and escape the colony life; the brother was content with it, and may even have joined Terra Firma had events not set him on a different course. They were separated in the raid after both had control wires stuck in their heads. In MaleShep's universe, Lt. Zabaleta (from the ME1 Spacer quest) fired a lucky shot that freed him (his wire was later surgically removed), but she was taken. After the raid, he signed up in her stead. He nursed a dream of rescuing her from the slavers one day... until he dropped into Torfan, and found out exactly what the Batarians do with female slaves. What he saw there, what he had to do, broke him. Suffice to say, he's fiercely protective of his crew, saddled with a reputation he doesn't particularly want (but isn't above using at times), and has some lingering psychological issues (notably genophobia) which he deals with over the course of the trilogy. Saves lives when he can, but willing to make sacrifices if the cause is sufficient.

His sister, in the AU, is an engineer who, while not prejudiced against aliens, is secretly a member of Cerberus from the beginning. Her idealism was tempered by the raid, moving human concerns to the forefront. In this version, her brother was killed; Zabaleta's shot freed her instead. She doesn't turn into the person her brother puts on a pedestal in the AU. While outwardly compassionate, she is less inclined to make friends of subordinates, and has an underlying pragmatic streak which grows more pronounced over the course of the trilogy. She starts to break from TIM's goals by keeping Legion instead of selling him (she already saw what happened at Project Overlord), only really cutting ties with TIM towards the beginning of ME3.

Both have ambiguous elements in their past. I haven't decided whether Nolan actually executed an insubordinate soldier under his command on Torfan. I haven't decided whether Laura was actually a victim on Akuze, or Cerberus' inside man. Best to leave a bit of mystery to their backstories.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 25 mars 2013 - 01:55 .

[mereck7980]

The relationship between Garrus and Shepard is never really competitive. There are a few light moments where they joke about one of them being "better" than the other but it is never something that is pushed much in the narrative.

So, when I play out that scene it seems to me that my Shepard would let Garrus win because he is not trying to beat him, he is more interested in sharing a quiet moment with one of his best friends. The act of "winning" isn't as important to my Shepard as seeing his friend experience genuine happiness for a few minutes.

That being said I beat the crap out of Jacob in the Shattered Eezo punch out game on the Citadel...because Jacob isn't Garrus...

Modifié par mereck7980, 25 mars 2013 - 01:51 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

KingZayd wrote...

Maybe it's good for him to feel the need to prove himself? Maybe letting him win is the path to overconfidence and will lead to him getting killed?

Having a rival means he's more likely to put the practice in.

Garrus doesn't need to beat Shepard in a jokey contest to know he's one of the galaxy's top snipers and he's hardly going to get himself killed if he does so. The guy is better than that. He has done and will do far greater things than winning against 'great Commander Shepard' in a silly bottle shooting competition. Good grief.

KingZayd wrote...

When I play games with friends, I don't lose deliberately. That defeats the point. I might let a 4 year old win/draw, but an adult? No. It says "I'm so confident that I would win if I tried, and I don't think you could handle it if you lost". It's arrogant and patronising.

Or maybe Shepard just thought, "I may win or a may lose, but you know what's more important than that? Seeing Garrus smile."

It doesn't make someone arrogant to try to boost up the confidence (or spare the feelings) of someone they care about.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 25 mars 2013 - 03:17 .

[KingZayd]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Maybe it's good for him to feel the need to prove himself? Maybe letting him win is the path to overconfidence and will lead to him getting killed?

Having a rival means he's more likely to put the practice in.

Garrus doesn't need to beat Shepard in a jokey contest to know he's one of the galaxy's top snipers and he's hardly going to get himself killed if he does so. The guy is better than that. He has done and will do far greater things than winning against 'great Commander Shepard' in a silly bottle shooting competition. Good grief.

KingZayd wrote...

When I play games with friends, I don't lose deliberately. That defeats the point. I might let a 4 year old win/draw, but an adult? No. It says "I'm so confident that I would win if I tried, and I don't think you could handle it if you lost". It's arrogant and patronising.

Or maybe Shepard just thought, "I may win or a may lose, but you know what's more important than that? Seeing Garrus smile."

It doesn't make someone arrogant to try to boost up the confidence (or spare the feelings) of someone they care about.

Garrus smiled anyway.

As for the first, I agree. But he also doesn't need the confidence boost either. Like you said, "Garrus doesn't need to beat Shepard in a jokey contest to know he's one of the galaxy's top snipers" 

Did you consider why he's playing this game? He is also not doing it for the win. He just wants a good time and some friendly competition. He doesn't need your charity.

[ThatDancingTurian]

But he has a better time when he wins. If this is all about a good time, then my Shepard succeeded.

[Eterna]

If you say you haven't lied to your friends then you're a ****ing liar.

[KingZayd]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

But he has a better time when he wins. If this is all about a good time, then my Shepard succeeded.

Why not pay a hooker to pretend to be interested in him, and give him an even better time then?

Not saying that's what you should do, but the principle seems similar to me.

Modifié par KingZayd, 25 mars 2013 - 03:37 .

[xBUMMx]

Because Garrus is always the first one to cheer you up by telling you how good of a soldier you are. I can't say that to him directly, but I can get the same effect by letting him. So I'm simply returning the favor.

[Galbrant]

Moral booster... but personally I shot the bottle because I wanted Garrus to know, No matter how hard he tries he will always be second rate. He lives because I willed it. He dies because I deemed it so.

[ThatDancingTurian]

KingZayd wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

But he has a better time when he wins. If this is all about a good time, then my Shepard succeeded.

Why not pay a hooker to pretend to be interested in him, and give him an even better time then?

Not saying that's what you should do, but the principle seems similar to me.

You've got to be kidding if you think that's even remotely the same thing.

If you agree with me that the contest just doesn't matter then he has nothing on the line. You're not wounding his pride. There are no stakes. It doesn't change what my Shepard thinks of him, she knows he's the best sniper. So what does it matter? It's more like telling your mom her pork roast is the best in the world. It's probably not true, but to you it's the best.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 25 mars 2013 - 03:46 .

[andy6915]

I've lied to my friend. He was worried that his, uh... "Male appendage" was small and took it out and said he needed an unbiased opinion about its size from a friend he knew was straight. The thing was a bit small (4 inches), but I told him it looked 5 inches and that it was average so he shouldn't worry about it.

Sometimes lying is needed for friends.

[Sundance31us]

Because if the bottles revolt my Shepard would rather have them call Garrus to take care of it instead of him

[KingZayd]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

But he has a better time when he wins. If this is all about a good time, then my Shepard succeeded.

Why not pay a hooker to pretend to be interested in him, and give him an even better time then?

Not saying that's what you should do, but the principle seems similar to me.

You've got to be kidding or delusional if you think that's even remotely the same thing.

If you agree with me that the contest just doesn't matter then he has nothing on the line. You're not wounding his pride. There are no stakes. It doesn't change what my Shepard thinks of him, she knows he's the best sniper. So what does it matter? It's more like telling your mom her pork roast is the best in the world. It's probably not true, but to you it's the best.

I wouldn't say that bolded text thing.

You think Garrus's pride wouldn't be affected if he were to find out Shepard let him win?

[Shadow Storm]

@OP People die on the suicide mission (ME2) just because they have one little bit of unfinished business. (I don't get that you would think that would spur them on to survive) Garrus is going into another suicide run with the whole Shepard shoots better then me thing on his mind. Recipe for disaster because with Garrus doubting his shooting skills everyone dies.

[ThatDancingTurian]

KingZayd wrote...

I wouldn't say that bolded text thing.

You think Garrus's pride wouldn't be affected if he were to find out Shepard let him win?

Well, then, that's just the kind of person you are, and that's fine. But that doesn't make people who would say that bad people or arrogant and condescending.

I don't think it will, no. He's not so completely insecure that something so silly is going to affect him. He's paid his dues and he's earned his bragging rights where it matters. Maybe if he was a nobody who hadn't accomplished anything aside from shooting those bottles. But he's not. He's a great soldier. This is completely, utterly meaningless and proof of absolutely nothing. It's just good fun. So I let him have his fun, because it made him happy, and I like to see him happy.

Not that he ever would find out for sure, because my Shepard wouldn't tell him. There's no point to saying anything.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 25 mars 2013 - 04:03 .

[KingZayd]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I wouldn't say that bolded text thing.

You think Garrus's pride wouldn't be affected if he were to find out Shepard let him win?

Well, then, that's just the kind of person you are, and that's fine. But that doesn't make people who would say that bad people or arrogant and condescending.

I don't think it will, no. He's not so completely insecure that something so silly is going to affect him. He's paid his dues and he's earned his bragging rights where it matters. Maybe if he was a nobody who hadn't accomplished anything aside from shooting those bottles. But he's not. He's a great soldier. This is completely, utterly meaningless and proof of absolutely nothing. It's just good fun. So I let him have his fun, because it made him happy, and I like to see him happy.

Not that he ever would find out for sure. My Shepard wouldn't tell him, there's no point.

a) if beating you makes him happier, then the revelation that he didn't really, and you decided "he could do with a win" would probably offend him a little in my opinion.

I don't think anyone who does it intends to be arrogant or condescending. I just think that's what that kind of act is. Typically more condescending than arrogant, but a bit of both. Personally, I would be annoyed if I discovered someone was letting me win a game / multiple games. At the very least they're wasting my time. I just don't think that's what a friend should do.

c) That's the same with the hypothetical hooker. Shepard wouldn't tell him.

Modifié par KingZayd, 25 mars 2013 - 04:05 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

KingZayd wrote...

a) if beating you makes him happier, then the revelation that he didn't really, and you decided "he could do with a win" would probably offend him a little in my opinion.

I doubt he would be offended. That's not the kind of person he is. He might be disappointed. And why would I want to see him disappointed? I wouldn't. That's why I wouldn't tell him. And that's also why I let him win.