244 réponses à ce sujet

[Meatbaggins]

slimgrin wrote...

syllogi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

I'm still just not seeing why Bioware and some people think advertising another gender, which plays just as big of a role, would be a profit loss.

They have said time and again they want a single face for the series, someone instantly recognizable. And this works, it's a marketing fact. No gender boundaries will be broken or glass ceilings exploded by simply marketing a female anyway.

I know, right?  Remember how poorly Myst sold, because there was no Dudebro on the box?  Or the Sims franchise, man, those sales really sucked with no single dude for dudes to identify with.  Same with the Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo series.  OH WAIT.

Something tells me you just hate dude bros and would feel validated by having a female lead on the cover. Great, now you and the rest can get together and decide on what she should wear...

How does pointing out examples of games that sold well despite not having male leads on the cover, imply that she's a man-hater?

[billy the squid]

SilentK wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Although It might sound confrontational, so I've toned it down a bit, what I derived from this part was. "I didn't have the inclination to actually find out what the game was about, therefore the Company must do all the work for me, to the point where I can't even turn over the back of a box to find out what the game is about."

That would be the logical distillation of your point. Doesn't portray women who play games in a good light either. And what you encountered was in essence word of mouth marketing which all companies use irrespective of gender and whatever other social concepts people like to go on about. For instance, games which appeal to other types of people outside of their market segment, should their marketing now cater to someone like me who generally has little interest in FPS games, yet now contains customisation and RPG mechanics? Borderlands certainly didn't, yet I found it and looked into it, before making a purchase.

I think it's rather conceited and people, although not aimed at you, need to pull their heads out of their collective arses and take a good look at the reality of what they're asking, and how stupid it is to expect a company to pander to every possible demographic, because everyone has to be included, because "we're people too" no you (plural) are not, they exista as a market segment and a revenue source to be targeted analysed and exploited. Those are the cold hard facts of data analysis.

I didn't know that it was even an option to look up, female character I mean. I really thought that it was Lara Croft or male hero in another game for me at that time. Now I know that there is more out there, which is why I looked up info on Torment: Tides of Numenera prior to backing it like I said. If you don't even know that it is an option, perhaps you are not as likely to go looking for it.

Hmm... don't know why you would say that it draws female players in a bad light. Just because I personally did not know that BioWare did games with a female protag does not mean that other women were not more informed or more active in finding the information out. I am just one woman, I do not represent every single female player. I didn't go looking just because I thought that these games didn't exist. The only game I had ever seen with someone like me was Tomb Raider so I thougth that that was it. That game was for me and the rest was for those who liked to play guys. So I picked up my toy and played with it.

I think that there is a difference between just hoping that there will be some easy to see info on the fact that you can play as a female and how you put it "I didn't have the inclination to actually find out what the game was
about, therefore the Company must do all the work for me, to the point where I can't even turn over the back of a box to find out what the game is about."

Ouch. If I would stand around in a games store turning over boxes randomly until I find the one with a female protag I don't know how much time that will take. How about just one poster with a female character, or something visible on the front with text that mentions a female protag. If you don't know that it can be an option, you might not go looking for it. I'm just hoping that making it a little more visible might catch some more female players, those who perhaps haven't tried rpg's yet. I have a few female friends who really like SIM's. Think that they could perhaps like these games as well. Perhaps I was the one female gamer out there who really didn't know that there were games with with female protags other than Tomb Raider, but in case there are others just something to catch their attetion would be a great thing.

I don't have time to stand about in game stores either, actually I'm horrible when it comes to shopping, I can't stand browsing it drives me crazy. The whole idea of internet searching in a particular genre is available, and most do contain a synopsis of what the game entails and what are the pertinent points when one purchases online. 

Specifically, because regardless of the other posters implying "dudbro" marketing actually makes a difference when adult men buy games it really doesn't hold any pull outside of a very specific genre like Call of Duty and a specific age group. 

As a for instance, Creative Assembly makes RTS games where one can command armies and Empires, similar to Sims, but more akin to Civilisation. And certainly there isn't any "dudebro" merketing in sight. It does market exactly what the game deals with though. 

The main thrust of my point is that most marketing campaigns are targeted to the wides common denominator and who is purchasing, rather than attempting to target a specific demographic, by breaking down what the game or product actually contains and what constitutes the game mechanics and type, very quickly when one looks at it critically. Despite the accusation of Dudebro marketing from some quaters what does CoD actually deal with? Guns, MP, Gun, Shooting things, explosions, erm more guns.

The generic soldier chap on the front is largely superficial. The same way that the generic knight on DAO was largely superficial, Hawke, Commander Shepard etc. There are very specific marketing points like, Tomb Raider, which tradditionally I've not been interested in, but decided I'll pick up the latest instalment. I think there's a lot more to what are the underlying points of selling a product than the idea that some have, I'm not refering to you, that if you slap a woman on the front it'll attract attention, because it's a woman. Not because of what the game actually entails.

[Enigmatick]

Do threads on gameplay mechanics ever get as many posts as these or do I need lurk more?

Modifié par Enigmatick, 24 mars 2013 - 06:24 .

[LPPrince]

Enigmatick wrote...

Do threads on gameplay mechanics ever get as many posts as these or do I need lurk more?

Search for the Archery Thread.

[LPPrince]

Anyway, I don't think its a bad idea to market a female protag along with a male protag.

Heavily marketing the choice in gender for the main character could do well to increase sales.

[syllogi]

slimgrin wrote...

syllogi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

I'm still just not seeing why Bioware and some people think advertising another gender, which plays just as big of a role, would be a profit loss.

They have said time and again they want a single face for the series, someone instantly recognizable. And this works, it's a marketing fact. No gender boundaries will be broken or glass ceilings exploded by simply marketing a female anyway.

I know, right?  Remember how poorly Myst sold, because there was no Dudebro on the box?  Or the Sims franchise, man, those sales really sucked with no single dude for dudes to identify with.  Same with the Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo series.  OH WAIT.

Something tells me you just hate dude bros and would feel validated by having a female lead on the cover. Great, now you and the rest can get together and decide on what she should wear...

If you actually read my posts, one of which is on this very page (edit, page 9 now), you would know what I actually want.  But no, it's much easier to continue attacking, exaggerating, and straight up lying, than being reasonable and logical.  

So, since you had no rebuttable to the post you quoted, can you tell me how/why those games I mentioned, as well as many others, like the Grand Theft Auto series, Gran Turismo, etc, succeeded without using a single, identifable dude on their covers?  

Not that you will actually pay attention to anything I write, but I have no problem with games that have a single, set, male protagonist advertising their single, set, male protagonist.  But it's possible to do in a way that isn't dull and predictable, and it's entirely possible to advertise a game that *doesn't* have a set male protagonist in a way that is enticing to anyone who is interested in playing that game.

It isn't about "social justice" or "political correctness".  But you keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel like your whining and hyperbole is justified.

Modifié par syllogi, 24 mars 2013 - 06:27 .

[billy the squid]

syllogi wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

SilentK wrote...

.....

I want the female protagonist to get some spotlight just for the sake of information. Just so that female gamers get to know that BioWare might just have a really great game for them. There is no secret signal or handshake when you walk into Webhallen or your local gamestore saying that it FemWarden, FemHawke and FemShep is there. They put so much love into FemShep and FemHawke, how about letting female gamers know about it? What they did with the cover off ME3, having it reversible with both a male and a female Shepard is great. It is so strange to me, know gaming is one of my most favorite pasttimes and I almost missed out. Hadn't my husband told me FemWarden was there I would never have known.

Although It might sound confrontational, so I've toned it down a bit, what I derived from this part was. "I didn't have the inclination to actually find out what the game was about, therefore the Company must do all the work for me, to the point where I can't even turn over the back of a box to find out what the game is about."

That would be the logical distillation of your point. Doesn't portray women who play games in a good light either. And what you encountered was in essence word of mouth marketing which all companies use irrespective of gender and whatever other social concepts people like to go on about. For instance, games which appeal to other types of people outside of their market segment, should their marketing now cater to someone like me who generally has little interest in FPS games, yet now contains customisation and RPG mechanics? Borderlands certainly didn't, yet I found it and looked into it, before making a purchase.

I think it's rather conceited and people, although not aimed at you, need to pull their heads out of their collective arses and take a good look at the reality of what they're asking, and how stupid it is to expect a company to pander to every possible demographic, because everyone has to be included, because "we're people too" no you (plural) are not, they exista as a market segment and a revenue source to be targeted analysed and exploited. Those are the cold hard facts of data analysis.

Seriously?  So when, as an example, Mass Effect 2 had NO screenshots or ingame images of FemShep available until a day or two before the game actually came out, anywhere online, it was up to female gamers to "do their homework"?  Other than *asking* for that sort of marketing (just like what's happening in this thread), what were female gamers supposed to do in that situation?

I want to be informed about the character *I* am going to play.  I'm not in any way saying I don't want to see marketing with male versions of the player character, but it's in no way conceited or selfish to ask for the same sort of advertising those who play male characters take for granted.

And for the record, I'm sick of both "Grim Broody Dudebro Striding Manfully Towards the Viewer" and "Sexy Lady Twisting Her Body so Both T&A Are Visible" cover art.  I thought the way DA:O handled marketing, and the trailers and posters featuring characters from different origins, was great, and I'd like to see DA:I's marketing handled more like that.

If you think dudbro marketing is the height of what motivates people to buy then this is going to be long discussion to point out how wrong you are. I'd rather just refer you to my previous post. 

Secondly, yes. Did people play ME1? So the information is there correct? It's now become a leap of logic so great that people are too stupid to look up the first game when the second one is titled "2" Just as everyone else is required to find out what the actual content of a game is about, unless you're still under the misapprehension that every man that buys a game does so because there's the assumption that a guy is in it. Which is frankly dumb.

I take it that simple research into buying a product regardless of gender or social concepts is not beyond the reach of most people here, and that people can put 2 and 2 together. Or am I expecting too much?

[LinksOcarina]

Janan Pacha wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

 So...you guys know that there is a correlation to marketing budgets tied to the gender of the protagonists?

Ben Kuchera did an expose and did some research on this, taking a sample size of 699 games from the past couple of years to find out how many had female protagonists, male protagonists, or choice of gender.
The results were pretty striking,  taking 699 games in 3 primary genres (RPG, Action/Advenutre, and Shooter) and finding that only 24 games had a female-only lead, with less than 300 games giving us the choice of gender.

This editorial also found that games with a female only lead tend to sell worse during the 7th generation of consoles, but there was a correlation to their advertising budgets being significantly smaller.

I bring this up because I recently tied these stats to an article I wrote, regarding an interview with Jean-Alex Morris did regarding the project hes currently working on, Remember Me. Something to the effect of "We had some that said, ‘Well, we don’t want to publish it because that’s not going to succeed. You can’t have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that.’” 

I also recall another story popping up regarding The Last of Us, and how Naughty Dog refused to change the cover of the box to feature Joel only, with Ellie on the back. So honestly, a lot of this is internal marketing either being somewhat stuck in their ways, or not giving female leads much credit in the advertising budgets of mainstream video games.

I should point out that this is not fully concrete in the end, since the sample size is small. But at the same time, it seems like an issue withn the industry that is somewhat ingrained sadly. Thankfully BioWare is not in that sort of categoy, but I think that every company can improve their standings somewhat for future releases if they decide to take risks.

I think the new Tomb Raider may in fact open the floodgates if it was successful, but Lara may just be a special case in the end. We shall see how Remember Me fares as well. And I am sure Dragon Age: Inquisition will be up to the task as well. 

There's a stream of logic outside the video game industry, in film and T.V., that's very similar. It's this idea that girls will watch shows about men, starring a male character, but that boys won't watch a show about a female character. This is a strange idea, yet, it's still popular enough that it gets tossed around almost constantly even in the face of ideas that prove it wrong.

There was enough worry on some executive parts that Legend of Korra , the sequel to the Last Airbender cartoon, was put to the test by its creators before it went on air. They brought in quite a few people, and get some pretty telling results - the male audience didn't care that she was female, they only cared that she was, and I quote, 'badass.'

When released Legend of Korra did very, very well.

You see, here's where things break down, there what 'executives think the audience thinks' and 'what they audience actually thinks.'

-

So let's skip over to video games, and think for a second. Where have we had female main characters in games, that have been very successful? Well, plenty places. Metroid, Final Fantasy VI and more all all popular, and beloved, titled with a main character that is female.

The reality is that what people 'think' the audience wants from a character, and their gender, isn't always what the audience actually wants or even cares about.

-

That all said, I don't really care who they market the game with. I make my own characters, I never use the defaults.

Well, as I said above its a very small sample size, but it does correlate to a self-fulfiling prophecy if there is any truth to the budget sizes for the games marketing correlating to poorer sales.

One thng that is interesting is the fact that those games with a male/female choice for protagonist usually rate better by fans and critics, but don't sell as much as make-only protagonists. I am curious to see the budgets for that group of 300 or so games in that category, which would likely include BioWare's catalogue, compared to say, Assassins Creed or Infamous, which had a male-centric protagonist.

Still, I think it is a cycle of self-fulfiling assumptions over pure malice through sexism in the end. I also think that the audience does care about these issues, especially in the growing gaming culture. Tabletops have had horrific growing pains regarding sexism as of late, I remember last year many were upset over possible art assets for 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons, mostly the common, comic book style poses for the female characters caused a lot of ire. 

So I think its a bigger issue than many would give it credit for, because there is a large portion of the market that now bases opinions of a product based on their treatment of an entire demographic. Its shows how much the culture of the industry, those who are participating in it I mean, is growing if anything else. 

[slimgrin]

syllogi wrote...

If you actually read my posts, one of which is on this very page (edit, page 9 now), you would know what I actually want.  But no, it's much easier to continue attacking, exaggerating, and straight up lying, than being reasonable and logical.  

So, since you had no rebuttable to the post you quoted, can you tell me how/why those games I mentioned, as well as many others, like the Grand Theft Auto series, Gran Turismo, etc, succeeded without using a single, identifable dude on their covers?  

The difference is characters are at the heart of Bioware's games and in this case the one you play is a semi-defined protagonist. The other games you listed don't have that emphasis or are in another genre entirely. As for GTA, you're forgetting about Niko.

Modifié par slimgrin, 24 mars 2013 - 06:42 .

[omgodzilla]

To all the people who think that ONLY the female should be marketed with the male getting nothing at all:

You know you remind me of extremist/radical feminists. People who think that women should rise up and dominate over men because men had opressed them for so long. People who just want to replace one form of sexism with another kind of sexism. I mean seriously, why not just have both the male AND the female advertised instead of only one gender getting the preference? I mean yeah, I understand that you're upset at how female protaganists used to be ignored in the marketing of previous bioware games but why would you want the male protaganist to go through the same treatment? Aren't you better than that?

txgoldrush wrote...

DAIII marketing should use the female default for its marketing instead of the male lead....they need to switch thing up in the marketing....

Have the female be the face of the game, have the female be on the cover, have the female be in the big CGI trailer....its time. I am sick and tired of all those white male leads recycled in video game marketing all the time.

And it fits the Inquistor because the Chantry uses women in prominent roles.

I haven't been around here for a while but why are you suggesting that the protaganist will be connected to the chantry? In both of the previous games, bioware gave players the option of being an athiest. I seriously doubt that they will force us to believe in the maker and work for the chantry this time around (atleast I hope they dont -.- ).

Modifié par omgodzilla, 24 mars 2013 - 06:44 .

[syllogi]

billy the squid wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Seriously?  So when, as an example, Mass Effect 2 had NO screenshots or ingame images of FemShep available until a day or two before the game actually came out, anywhere online, it was up to female gamers to "do their homework"?  Other than *asking* for that sort of marketing (just like what's happening in this thread), what were female gamers supposed to do in that situation?

I want to be informed about the character *I* am going to play.  I'm not in any way saying I don't want to see marketing with male versions of the player character, but it's in no way conceited or selfish to ask for the same sort of advertising those who play male characters take for granted.

And for the record, I'm sick of both "Grim Broody Dudebro Striding Manfully Towards the Viewer" and "Sexy Lady Twisting Her Body so Both T&A Are Visible" cover art.  I thought the way DA:O handled marketing, and the trailers and posters featuring characters from different origins, was great, and I'd like to see DA:I's marketing handled more like that.

If you think dudbro marketing is the height of what motivates people to buy then this is going to be long discussion to point out how wrong you are. I'd rather just refer you to my previous post.

That's not at all what I said, in my other posts I mentioned highly successful examples of games that *don't* use "dudebro marketing" to succeed.  So, I don't really have a response to this, it's simply not what I was talking about.

As to your points from your other post:

The main thrust of my point is that most marketing campaigns are targeted to the wides common denominator and who is purchasing, rather than attempting to target a specific demographic, by breaking down what the game or product actually contains and what constitutes the game mechanics and type, very quickly when one looks at it critically. Despite the accusation of Dudebro marketing from some quaters what does CoD actually deal with? Guns, MP, Gun, Shooting things, explosions, erm more guns.

The generic soldier chap on the front is largely superficial. The same way that the generic knight on DAO was largely superficial, Hawke, Commander Shepard etc. There are very specific marketing points like, Tomb Raider, which tradditionally I've not been interested in, but decided I'll pick up the latest instalment. I think there's a lot more to what are the underlying points of selling a product than the idea that some have, I'm not refering to you, that if you slap a woman on the front it'll attract attention, because it's a woman. Not because of what the game actually entails.

This, I understand, and I also don't really care if a "default" female character is on the cover of a game I play.  It would be *refreshing*, if a series with the option of both genders, used a female version on the box, but it wouldn't affect my view of the game, unless it were really sexist, I suppose.  That hasn't happened yet, though, so it's not a major concern, personally.  I don't think other people asking for it, however, deserves the big debate that's going on here.  However...

billy the squid wrote...

Secondly, yes. Did people play ME1? So the information is there correct? It's now become a leap of logic so great that people are too stupid to look up the first game when the second one is titled "2" Just as everyone else is required to find out what the actual content of a game is about, unless you're still under the misapprehension that every man that buys a game does so because there's the assumption that a guy is in it. Which is frankly dumb.

I take it that simple research into buying a product regardless of gender or social concepts is not beyond the reach of most people here, and that people can put 2 and 2 together. Or am I expecting too much?

Going back to my example of ME2, I was pretty much a done deal as far as whether or not I would buy the game.  But if the game was going to have marketing that targetted players like me, who were already guaranteed to preorder, yes, I think it wasn't asking too much to show screenshots and ingame footage in trailers of the female version of the player character.  Why would this be too much to ask?  Wouldn't you be a bit suspicious if ONLY the female version of character was shown before a game came out, and nothing about the male character was shown?  Maybe the game devs had nothing to hide, but wouldn't it be normal to say "hey, what gives, why no Male Main Character in your marketing?"  Why, then, is it okay to completely erase the entire female gender, in that scenario?

[legbamel]

slimgrin wrote...

SilentK wrote...
I would like to see something with the female protagonist just so people will know that you can indeed play as a female.

Or they can just read the box to find this out. Or look it up on the internet. Seriously, gamers aren't so clueless; I'm pretty sure most Bioware fans already know you can play both genders. And that's what this is about, appeasing established fans.

What would lead you to do this research if the advertising doesn't grab you?  It was only sheerest luck that hubby picked up DA:O and told me I could play as a woman, which led me to look more closely at Mass Effect.  It's not that I won't play as a male PC, if I have to, but I'm a lot less likely to be interested in a title if that's the case.  If all I see in the advertising and on the box is bloody, broody dudebro I'm not particularly likely to go more digging that a quick look at the back.  Why would sales suffer because a company presents its customers with more options in their advertising?

[billy the squid]

omgodzilla wrote...

To all the people who think that ONLY the female should be marketed with the male getting nothing at all:

You know you remind me of extremist/radical feminists. People who think that women should rise up and dominate over men because men had opressed them for so long. People who just want to replace one form of sexism with another kind of sexism. I mean seriously, why not just have both the male AND the female advertised instead of only one gender getting the preference? I mean yeah, I understand that you're upset at how female protaganists used to be ignored in the marketing of previous bioware games but why would you want the male protaganist to go through the same treatment? Aren't you better than that?

To play devil's advocate. I don't believe anyone has said that.

A few people have got their panties in a twist in mistaking percieved under representation and equating it to a percieved slight instead of realising it's purely pragmatic and done because it's easy and cheaper, than for any other reason.

[LinksOcarina]

billy the squid wrote...

omgodzilla wrote...

To all the people who think that ONLY the female should be marketed with the male getting nothing at all:

You know you remind me of extremist/radical feminists. People who think that women should rise up and dominate over men because men had opressed them for so long. People who just want to replace one form of sexism with another kind of sexism. I mean seriously, why not just have both the male AND the female advertised instead of only one gender getting the preference? I mean yeah, I understand that you're upset at how female protaganists used to be ignored in the marketing of previous bioware games but why would you want the male protaganist to go through the same treatment? Aren't you better than that?

To play devil's advocate. I don't believe anyone has said that.

A few people have got their panties in a twist in mistaking percieved under representation and equating it to a percieved slight instead of realising it's purely pragmatic and done because it's easy and cheaper, than for any other reason.

Well, the OP did say that they wanted to have the female lead marketed instead of the male. My guess is that the statement by OMGodzilla was supposed to refence that. 

[billy the squid]

syllogi wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Secondly, yes. Did people play ME1? So the information is there correct? It's now become a leap of logic so great that people are too stupid to look up the first game when the second one is titled "2" Just as everyone else is required to find out what the actual content of a game is about, unless you're still under the misapprehension that every man that buys a game does so because there's the assumption that a guy is in it. Which is frankly dumb.

I take it that simple research into buying a product regardless of gender or social concepts is not beyond the reach of most people here, and that people can put 2 and 2 together. Or am I expecting too much?

Going back to my example of ME2, I was pretty much a done deal as far as whether or not I would buy the game.  But if the game was going to have marketing that targetted players like me, who were already guaranteed to preorder, yes, I think it wasn't asking too much to show screenshots and ingame footage in trailers of the female version of the player character.  Why would this be too much to ask?  Wouldn't you be a bit suspicious if ONLY the female version of character was shown before a game came out, and nothing about the male character was shown?  Maybe the game devs had nothing to hide, but wouldn't it be normal to say "hey, what gives, why no Male Main Character in your marketing?"  Why, then, is it okay to completely erase the entire female gender, in that scenario?

I think it was because you already were a known entity. Players like you would have bought the game, you knew what you were getting and what options were available in respect of gender etc. Pragamatism. There was no rhyme nor reason why the female version would have been removed if your choices carried over, which is something that was most important for the game, and the series in fact.

But, look at who ME2 was targeted at the "new players" there was a lot of changes in mechanics, which started to mimic the generic 3rd person shooter. I'm not going to go through all the devs comments and details. But, it is right there. That they were expanding the type and number of people that player by making it more accessable. The issue is more prcaticalities than trying to hide it. 

Yet considering Mike Laidlaw did a live play playthrough of DA2 using a woman, before release. I don't think that it detracts from the point that using the screen shots and actual physical cover marketing to do both men and women is an additional cost, hence they draw a line where they will to save on it. 

That is the key point, realistic and practical priorities tend to come before gender inclusion assurances via screen shots. There's no reason why the Devs can't say that such and such will be included. And I while I can't remember exactly I think they were very careful to give more details for people on PS3 who hadn't played or even seen ME1.

Edit:

And while I can be a somewhat abrasive and aggressive, I can see what you and Silent K have issues with. Sometimes I tend to bark at people unduly after I've made responses to the asinine posts of others. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 24 mars 2013 - 07:15 .

[rapscallioness]

The thing is that it's not just games. It's film, tv, books. It has in recent times been growing and changing, but it's been a long road.

And really it's difficult to explain why this is a big deal to some ppl. It's just when all the stories of the collective culture consistently point to one type of person and say this is a Good Guy. This is a Hero.

And you rarely, if ever, see anyone that looks anything like you being portrayed as a Hero, as a good guy. Then the msg from the culture becomes...ppl like you are not considered Hero material. Heck, it's almost like you don't even exist.

It hurts. To see that your culture at large--your extended Fam, if you will, thinks so lil of you. It's like someone is constantly jabbing you w/a sharp stick. Just jab, jab, jab, poke, jab. Until you can't take it anymore. And you grab that stick, break it over your knee and throw it to the ground.

Story and art is extremely powerful stuff. It has a huge influence on our perceptions of ourselves and each other.

This, however, does not make dudebros the badguys. I don't hate my dudebros. Not even a lil bit. In fact, I have a rather strong affection for my dudebros...oh, you guys.

But you are gonna have to scoot over a bit. Make room. Cuz we're not going anywhere. We're not gonna go shuffling off back to the kitchen to huddle around a candle eating scraps while everyone else is living it up in the front room under a crystal chandelier.

It's not happening. Not anymore. We're gonna keep throwing elbows in this mosh pit until we take our rightful place at the table Next to you. Not instead of you. Just next to you.

If my dudebros can't understand that, or it makes them angry..then *shrugs*..so be it.

[billy the squid]

LinksOcarina wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

omgodzilla wrote...

To all the people who think that ONLY the female should be marketed with the male getting nothing at all:

You know you remind me of extremist/radical feminists. People who think that women should rise up and dominate over men because men had opressed them for so long. People who just want to replace one form of sexism with another kind of sexism. I mean seriously, why not just have both the male AND the female advertised instead of only one gender getting the preference? I mean yeah, I understand that you're upset at how female protaganists used to be ignored in the marketing of previous bioware games but why would you want the male protaganist to go through the same treatment? Aren't you better than that?

To play devil's advocate. I don't believe anyone has said that.

A few people have got their panties in a twist in mistaking percieved under representation and equating it to a percieved slight instead of realising it's purely pragmatic and done because it's easy and cheaper, than for any other reason.

Well, the OP did say that they wanted to have the female lead marketed instead of the male. My guess is that the statement by OMGodzilla was supposed to refence that. 

True, but knowing what kind of dense posts the OP makes, I do tend to think he makes them deliberately to rile people up. So we get this divide between the social justice crusade and people of my ilk.

[rapscallioness]

Well, it doesn't matter of OP is troll, or not. BSN is always talking abt these kinda things. Which is kinda impressive to tell ya the truth.

Do other game sites do this? Have these kinda "social" convo's?

[Sejborg]

rapscallioness wrote...

Well, it doesn't matter of OP is troll, or not. BSN is always talking abt these kinda things. Which is kinda impressive to tell ya the truth.

Do other game sites do this? Have these kinda "social" convo's?

Who cares? ... about any of it?

[Allan Schumacher]

We're about done here.