244 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Bonus points if she's not whiter than fresh snow.

Definitely. FemHawke and FemShep are hella pale. Not my ideal female protagonist as a woman of color.

Wow.

I'm all for diversity, but I'm just going to put it out there that if the gold-standard for "acceptable marketing" means "the hero looks just like me," most of us are going to be out of luck. There's no way that any game company can (or really, should have to) live up to that.

Those comments also sounded pretty insensitive, and if they'd been directed toward a "too dark" character, would have already been flagged by the community as super racist.


I really appreciate Fast Jimmy's comments on the subject. And I'd like to add that, while I agree that it would be cool to have a female protagonist in marketing (and the OP's point about the Chantry prefering women in positions of power is pretty relevant), I've never felt at all like having a male protagonist in marketing somehow illegitimized me as a female gamer.

Bioware's always given me great opportunities to have an equally amazing gaming experience, whether playing as a male or as a female. They don't have to prove anything else to me in their marketing strategies. In fact, I want Bioware to choose a marketing strategy that will bring them the greatest profits (within reason - no repeats of this) so that they can continue to make the games I love, and make them better.

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
So it can't be a good or fun game, without being saddled with social progressive horsesh!te. I'm bemused as to when games became the battleground for social progressives. 

What he said was the game should be enjoyable regardless of whatever social concept etc. happens to be present in it. So untwist your panties.

It won't be a good or fun game for the people that feel excluded or belittled by it.

That's what "social progression" means, making a game that is fun for more than one kind of person.

[Realmzmaster]

I am with Fast Jimmy on this issue. I want to see no one on the cover. The Collector's edition of DAO had a sword hilt on the cover with a battlefield background. Wizardry I had a dragon on the front and Wizardry V had a maelstrom with an eye in the middle. I would rather see a dragon or some symbol representing the Inquisitor on the front cover.

The trailers can have both male and female protagonists. The cover should be gender neutral.

[Plaintiff]

brushyourteeth wrote...
no repeats of this

Wow.

Well... um...

At least it shows the girls playing the game?

[Mclouvins]

This whole argument is insane and set against its own purpose for the sake of pandering. Marketing is about capital efficiency and maximizing the rate of return for the product. Just today Bioware released their Mass Effect data metrics that showed 80 something percent played male and 60 something percent played soldier. If that means that the sales of the product are improved by showing male characters with a slant towards gunplay in tv spots then fine, because that strengthens the long term health of the franchise which allows for female characters and non-gunplay focused combat. The ethos of the game remains strong that way, and that should be what really matters.

All of the game marketing teams or groups if they outsource it look at the same data and come up with the same conclusions, which is why the foreground of just about every AAA title looks more or less the same and why the DA:I cover will probably have the default male protagonist with the default female one on a reversible cover. If you push both in the same large distribution marketing for broader audience people will probably think it's a co-op game like Army of Two.

[lil yonce]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Bonus points if she's not whiter than fresh snow.

Definitely. FemHawke and FemShep are hella pale. Not my ideal female protagonist as a woman of color.

Wow.

I'm all for diversity, but I'm just going to put it out there that if the gold-standard for "acceptable marketing" means "the hero looks just like me," most of us are going to be out of luck. There's no way that any game company can (or really, should have to) live up to that.

Those comments also sounded pretty insensitive, and if they'd been directed toward a "too dark" character, would have already been flagged by the community as super racist.

Its been two in a row for Bioware games. FemHawke and FemShep. I don't have an aversion to white characters-- just not snow white everytime. Black Feminism.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mars 2013 - 04:49 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I'd rather the game be made as enjoyable as possible

... for straight white men, you mean?

Because, somehow, having a straight white man as the protagonist used in marketing, diminishes the value of the game itself to any other type of person?
The fact that Hawke was a white man who kissed Isabela in the trailer does not change the fact that you could romance Merril with a black female Hawke.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 mars 2013 - 04:44 .

[Terraforming2154]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I really appreciate Fast Jimmy's comments on the subject. And I'd like to add that, while I agree that it would be cool to have a female protagonist in marketing (and the OP's point about the Chantry prefering women in positions of power is pretty relevant), I've never felt at all like having a male protagonist in marketing somehow illegitimized me as a female gamer.

For the most part, I feel the same, but I can't speak for all female gamers and marketing might have a bigger effect on some players. Showing a female PC might be able to draw some people in. For example, Mass Effect is my favorite game series, but before I actually saw someone play the game (and realized you could play as femshep), I never gave it more than a cursory glance because I always thought it was just a generic "guy in space" tps based on the game cover and ads.

I liked what ME3 did - femshep and male shep trailers, and femshep getting some representation on the boxart. It isn't necessary, but if they go that direction, I would be fine with it. I really don't see why some people in this thread are getting so up in arms over this.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 24 mars 2013 - 04:46 .

[Wifflebottom]

billy the squid wrote...

Nice, I'm looking forward to be called mysogonistic and sexist more often then! 

If one's views allign with misogonystic and and sexist ideas then one would expect to be called a misogynist or sexist, no?

Anywho, I'm all for increased inclusiveness in video games and if that means representing the unrepresented then that's good too.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I'd rather the game be made as enjoyable as possible

... for straight white men, you mean?

Because, somehow, having a straight white man as the protagonist used in marketing, diminishes the value of the game itself to any other type of person?
The fact that Hawke was a white men who kissed Isabela in the trailer does not change the fact that you could romance Merril with a black female Hawke.

You don't think certain gamers might benefit from being told that character customisability and romance options exist in Bioware's games? The advertising doesn't really make that clear.

But that's not what I was addressing when I made that comment. I was specifically referring to Fast Jimmy's statement that games should not try to be "socially progressive" (ie, don't attempt to appeal to anyone but the majority) and should instead focus on being "fun", whatever that means for him.

The notion that the two goals must be disparate and run counter to each other is what I object to.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mars 2013 - 04:48 .

[TheBlackBaron]

For everybody that's going "but it doesn't make sense for a female protagonist on the cover to reduce sales!"

Well, I hate to tell you guys this, but people in general don't make sense, and do lots of irrational things based on knee-jerk reactions and first impressions, hence the phrase "lowest common denominator". Marketing is all about appealing to that denominator, because it's (by definition) the most inclusive, and thus represents the largest number of people to appeal to, and thus sell a product to.

There are reams of market research done on this by people who get paid by big publishers to do it. Every aspect of a marketing campaign is meticulously tested and refined and focus-grouped the hell out of to meet that goal. This is not something Ken Levine and a few publishers pulled out of their ass because they're "afraid of women" or some horsesh*t. 

I would expect Bioware to follow ME3's lead and have a reversible cover and probably one major trailer featuring the female Inquisitor, but that's about it.

Of course, ideally we'd have a DA:O styled character that isn't so defined and thus nobody cares about whose on the cover or in the trailers, but that's another debate entirely.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 24 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[brushyourteeth]

Youth4Ever wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Bonus points if she's not whiter than fresh snow.

Definitely. FemHawke and FemShep are hella pale. Not my ideal female protagonist as a woman of color.

Wow.

I'm all for diversity, but I'm just going to put it out there that if the gold-standard for "acceptable marketing" means "the hero looks just like me," most of us are going to be out of luck. There's no way that any game company can (or really, should have to) live up to that.

Those comments also sounded pretty insensitive, and if they'd been directed toward a "too dark" character, would have already been flagged by the community as super racist.

Its been two in a row for Bioware games. FemHawke and FemShep. I don't have an aversion to white characters-- just not snow white everytime. Black Feminsim.

I don't even know what to say to that.

I'd like to see more ethnic diversity in game marketing, too. But not because there's anything aesthetically wrong or irritating about very light-skinned people.

There's a big difference between "I'd like to see a more ethnically diverse cast of characters" in DAIII, and "Fewer white people please. The last few were *too* white."
A BIG difference.

[10K]

brushyourteeth wrote...
no repeats of this

What the hell is this:blink:

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
You don't think certain gamers might benefit from being told that character customisability and romance options exist in Bioware's games? The advertising doesn't really make that clear.

Certainly but I object to the notion that there is an inherent flaw in marketing a straight, white man simply because he is a straight, white man or that a person of any other ethic background couldn't enjoy the game because there is a white man in the cover.

But that's not what I was addressing when I made that comment. I was specifically referring to Fast Jimmy's statement that games should not try to be "socially progressive" (ie, don't attempt to appeal to anyone but the majority) and should instead focus on being "fun", whatever that means for him.

The notion that the two goals must be disparate and run counter to each other is what I object to.

Fast Jimmy did not, at any point, advocate the exclusion of any type of people so, it seems to me you're just jumping to conclusions here.

[brushyourteeth]

mosesarose wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
no repeats of this

What the hell is this:blink:

LOL, I know -- that marketing strategy was exactly why I decided to pass on trying DA:O when it first came out. My brother tried to get me to play it, and I distinctly remember telling him I thought it looked like LotR for bros. Imagine my shock when it turned out to be brilliant and became my favorite game ever!

But that quote doesn't really do justice to the spirit of my post -- which was that I'm actually (aside from that one WTF example) pretty happy with the marketing. And I'm a lady.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Certainly but I object to the notion that there is an inherent flaw in marketing a straight, white man simply because he is a straight, white man or that a person of any other ethic background couldn't enjoy the game because there is a white man in the cover.

Well of course a person of any ethnic background can enjoy a game with a white man on the cover. They don't have a lot of choice in that regard. It's either buy a game with a white dude on the cover or don't buy any games at all.

Fast Jimmy did not, at any point, advocate the exclusion of any type of people so, it seems to me you're just jumping to conclusions here.

He just doesn't think that we should try to include them.

[lil yonce]

brushyourteeth wrote...
I don't even know what to say to that.

I'd like to see more ethnic diversity in game marketing, too. But not because there's anything aesthetically wrong or irritating about very light-skinned people.

There's a big difference between "I'd like to see a more ethnically diverse cast of characters" in DAIII, and "Fewer white people please. The last few were *too* white."
A BIG difference.

Its not wanting fewer white people. Its wanting recognition of which there is none for anyone who is not anywhere near snow white. A tan white woman would be a step up. Why does it have to be an incredibly fair skinned white woman?

[cJohnOne]

Since Male Hawke was used so extensively in advertising, It only seems fair to use a female on the cover. Besides if you were new to the game how would you know you could play a female. If you're going for a mature audience then it really shouldn't matter whose on the cover. By that I mean a female should be on the cover.

[stonemyst]

I would like a female protagonist if I get to adjust her body not just face. I can already hear the company rabble of a companion. I have one with big ****** and one with small just to see if your group will comment.

[Genshie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I'd rather the game be made as enjoyable as possible

... for straight white men, you mean?

Really? Was pulling out that one little snippet of my many paragraphs of text just to make that comment really the best course of action?

Is DA2 any better or worse as a game because MHawke is on the cover? No. It is the same game. Your reasons for loving or hating it are the exact same. All I ask is that the game be made with enjoyment for everyone in mind. Not social justice. 

Again... I would rather NO ONE be on the cover, or in the promotions. Setting a default protag sets a level of defined nature to the character. Remove that definition, and then no one is offended of receiving preferential treatment and new players can be attracted by the concept of making their own character, one of the chief draws to the series. 

So would you be fine with a cover similar to Origins? You have a generic Warden on front and Morrigan in the background. If you are just stepping into the franchise these two characters would look like a generic knight and witch of some sort.

Modifié par Genshie, 24 mars 2013 - 05:12 .

[brushyourteeth]

Youth4Ever wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I don't even know what to say to that.

I'd like to see more ethnic diversity in game marketing, too. But not because there's anything aesthetically wrong or irritating about very light-skinned people.

There's a big difference between "I'd like to see a more ethnically diverse cast of characters" in DAIII, and "Fewer white people please. The last few were *too* white."
A BIG difference.

Its not wanting fewer white people. Its wanting recognition of which there is none for anyone who is not anywhere near snow white. A tan white woman would be a step up. Why does it have to be an incredibly fair skinned white woman?

I'm just saying your original comments (whether you meant them that way or not) came across as pretty disparaging toward people who (through no fault of their own) have very fair skin.

Granted, it's one thing to say "okay, for two out of two Bioware games that had default female character models they've been what I would call fair-skinned. Now I'd like to see something different." though that's not even a super-strong precedent to complain about. But the implication of your complaint was that there was something unappealing about people with fair skin (when in fact I've known plenty of people who are fairer even than FShep and FHawke and are already self-conscious about it). It sounded like you think fair skin is gross -- not just that you'd like something different (which I'd agree with, and I think is fair).

Best to be careful when we're talking about race.

[Terraforming2154]

brushyourteeth wrote...
I don't even know what to say to that.

I'd like to see more ethnic diversity in game marketing, too. But not because there's anything aesthetically wrong or irritating about very light-skinned people.

There's a big difference between "I'd like to see a more ethnically diverse cast of characters" in DAIII, and "Fewer white people please. The last few were *too* white."
A BIG difference.

I really don't think the poster was trying to say there should be less white people, just that it would be nice to see more varied representation. It is rare to see female characters on video game covers, but even more rare to see non-Caucasian women on them.

Like, when Bioware gave people the option to pick femshep's appearance, it might have been really neat if they had gone with one of the non-Caucasian options they had created.

Edit: Oops, you already responded. Never mind me.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 24 mars 2013 - 05:17 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Well of course a person of any ethnic background can enjoy a game with a white man on the cover. They don't have a lot of choice in that regard. It's either buy a game with a white dude on the cover or don't buy any games at all.

There are games with non-white people in the cover. It's true they are a minority but that is an entirely different issue that doesn't pertain to what we were discussing which was not the frequency of white protagonists but the suggestion that a white protagonist; despite not even being mandatory as is the case with DA2; automatically diminishes the value of said game.

He just doesn't think that we should try to include them.

If you don't think that something should be excluded, logic dictates you think it should be included. It seems to me all Jimmy said was that Bioware should be more concerned with the nature of the Inquisition rather than the color of the skin of the Inquisitor.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 mars 2013 - 05:23 .

[MisterJB]

Terraforming2154 wrote...
Like, when Bioware gave people the option to pick femshep's appearance, it might have been really neat if they had gone with one of the non-Caucasian options they had created.

Well, that was a vote. All Bioware had to do was provide non-Caucasian options for the fans to choose from which they did. The majority of the fans just voted for a Caucasian woman for Default FemShep.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 mars 2013 - 05:23 .

[Xilizhra]

If you don't think that something should be excluded, logic dictates you think it should be included. It seems to me all Jimmy said was that Bioware should be more concerned with the nature of the Inquisition rather than the color of the skin of the Inquisitor.

Why is that a marketing question? This topic is about marketing, not game design.